Converting to a Total Loss System...

ScottLevy

Control Rider
Has anyone done this? I've seen some guys push-starting their bikes so I assume they've removed the starter.

I have an 04 R6 and am interested in doing this, but keeping the starter. I've heard that you need to remove the Stator to reduce the drag (if any) of the magnets as well as the flywheel so there's less rotational mass to spin up. Then you get a smaller battery and wire the Stator wire to the negative terminal and the Generator wire to the positive terminal. Then you just need to charge the battery when not running so it has enough juice to run the starter and power you for the length of your session.

It sounds like it just requires some wiring and mechanical know-how, but I could be wrong.
I've seen batteries for around $200.
Can anyone comment on this procedure in general or more specifically for the R6?
Thanks.
 

Garrison

New Member
F-ck $200 for a battery.

Get a lithium MDA123 from the "Other" section on the Wera f/s for $130 bucks. Will fire up a literbike for years on end and comes with a quick disconnect. Weighs about 1.4lbs.
 

ScottLevy

Control Rider
Great find man! I could probably make my own battery pack come to think of it. Definitely curious what the spin-up difference will be w/o the flywheel and stator...
 

BigKid

New Member
do a search on the R1 forum for building your own lithium A123 battery. Im doing one now. 1.4 lbs compared to 9.8 of a normal battery and forget the total loss. Total loss is not allowed in superstock and I have enough things to worry about between sessions. Dont need to worry about charging my battery. Also, if you dont want to have to worry about some of the lithium battery issues buy a ytz7s battery. Under 4 lbs and I use one in my R1. Plenty of power for a bike with no headlights. I also run a camera system and GPS lap timer but no lights. Have used the ytz7s on my last 5 bikes. No issues, last for 3 years or so. Would last longer if I was not lazy getting my bike out of the trailer in the winter and putting it on a battery tender. Important ote about lithium batteries, you need a special charger and there is some maintenance to keeping the cells balanced.
 

BigKid

New Member
And as far as the zero loss system is concerned, yes removing the flywheel and such really helps the motor spin up. That is why Yamaha factory teams run a $10,000.00 magneti mareli flywheel that is 400% lighter than stock and they use rare earth magnets in the generator. But, do you really need it?
 

ScottLevy

Control Rider
Thanks for the info guys. Appreciate it!

I don't plan on racing so I'm not concerned about it being legal. I can always put the flywheel back (I would assume) if I'm not happy or I decide to race in the future. I just was curious if anyone had done this to their bike and has any tips or pitfalls to watch out for.

Thanks again fellas (and ladies).
 

Garrison

New Member
BigKid;128270 wrote: Important note about lithium batteries, you need a special charger and there is some maintenance to keeping the cells balanced.
This is incorrect. I am using a regular 12v trickle charger and it is approved by the maker of the battery and, here's the kicker, sold at Walmart.

Also, I do not believe they require maintenance. Again this is coming from the guy who actually made the battery with his bare hands-
The only time you would need to treat it differently than a regular lead/acid battery is if the temperature is under 50 degrees (F). In this case you can just click the bike to "on" and let the battery cells warm up for a minute prior to firing it. After words you should never have an issue for the 3+ year shelf life it has (no tender needed, fwiw). And if you are not going to use it, take it out of the bike and keep it in your closet for the winter months...

I have this battery and have been incredibly satisfied with it, which is why I'm taking the time to dispel some of the myths of Li batteries.
 

BigKid

New Member
I appreciate what you have to say BUT, they would not make very complicated devices for monitoring each individual cell and even more complicated devices for balancing each cell if there was no issue. I have done extensive research on the issue and as it is not a real big issue some day you may find that the battery will not work AT ALL and all it is going to be is one dead cell due to an inbalance that kills the cell and no longer allows current to pass. So when you batterey dies dont throw it away, it is easy to replace the one dead cell. Lead acid batteries do a similar thing, they however still allow current to pass through the cells, they just become weak. Lithium completely stop passing current when they get overheated or over charged. Yes you can use a trickle charger but a trickle charger has no way of knowing when a lithium battery is charged, any over charging will kill a lithium battery. BTW, ever notice all the new lithium tools out have a very specific, very expensive charger and can not be used in the old style chargers but old batteries can be charged in the new chargers. It takes longer however because lithium can not be charged quickly, they must be slow charged and only to their mean voltage of about 3.3 volts per cell. The imbalance thing is another issue, ass you use any battery cells in series the cells near the positive pole will always have a higher voltage than the cells near the negative pole of the total battery package. Due to the very sensitive nature of lithium batteries more complicated balancing of the batteries will extend their life VERY VERY LONG compared to lead acid and other styles of batteries. I said I did a lot of research, I should qualify this with I have done TONS of research while researching the feasibility to manufacture and sell batteries like this to support my track addiction. I have spent untold amounts of money to make bikes lighter in the past and it is one of my passions of bike riding. I went to college for mechanical engineering and I own a home stereo business. I love electronics and the physical mechanics of race bikes. Of course the guy that sold you the battery is going to say yeah, no problem, no worries, etc but there are some extra worries compared to a conventional maintenance free battery. If these additional issues are dealt with the battery will outlive, outperform and never let you down. We are not far away from the day that lead acid batteries are made illegal by the EPA. Porsche is already putting these very same batteries in their new supercars. Yes, you can buy a pre-made battery adn will most likely have no issues, personally I would buy two so you are not let down and dont miss a race or session if you dont plan on maintaining the battery.
 

Garrison

New Member
Bigkid,

Excellent writeup. I was unaware of the complete loss of current in the event of a cell failure (in Li batteries). Very clear and informative, thanks.

To clear it up though, you are positing that Li batteries are better in the end, if the maintenance is taken care of?
Also, what do I need to do to keep up with that maintenance?

If you wanna pm me some tricks I'm always looking for innovative new ways to lighten the ol' girl.
 

BigKid

New Member
garrison, one of the really cool ways they are building most of the batteries (the kit ones you can buy all over now) is the fact that they parallel wire pairs of cells. Most of the batteries like this are built this way so if one cell fails it will bypass the one cell and flow through the paired cell. Unfortunately this is very detrimental to the paired cell and again comes back to destroying the battery. The actual maintenance to the battery involves measuring the voltage of each cell and verifying that it is at 3.3 volts. These cells are the same new cells they are using in remote control cars. The RC guys have cheap little circuit boards (that are not waterproof by the way) that need 5 wires. One ground and 4 leads to the parallel positive side of the battery. These circuit boards have a digital display that scrolls through each pair and then to an overall battery voltage. If you find a cell that is overcharged it requires you to put a resistor between the negative and the positive of the leed that goes to the overcharged pair. There are some circuits out there that take care of this but they cost more than the battery. Another issue is this circuit board has no off switch so it drains the battery slowly. It could be as simple as wiring up the 5 wires to a connector that you plug in occasionally to check on the battery and have 4 additional connectors with a resistor in each that are numbered to coordinate with the cell that is overcharged. (also btw, if someone patents this idea after this date I'm making a claim :p) this was my plan btw but now that the market is flooded with so many options I'm only making these for myself and a few others that request them. Most of this information is out there on the internet. I have not researched this subject for a year so i'm sure tons more info is available on our great information highway. Hopefully some of this info will help before everyone runs out and dives in uninformed.

Also, I cant stress how important the proper charge voltage and amperage is to these batteries. It actually varies from manufacturer and wiring sequence of the particular pack. Trust me when I say if it was so easy all the manufacturers of batteries, cars, bikes, etc would be selling these. I do however highly support these batteries, they are the wave of the future. As much as I enjoy soldering projects however there are a ton more issues in making these batteries. A. all solder is lead free now days and the outsides of these cells are aluminum which lead free solder will not stick too. It requires a very expensive specialty product to solder them together. I know some packs are using a spot weld to connect the cells and that will not make the proper connection to flow the amount of current required to start a bike reliably. Also, solder heat time to each connection is not to exceed 3 seconds per the manufacturer which makes it rather difficult to do at home with off the shelf soldering equipment. Which makes a home built battery a poor product to market. I dont have the capital to buy the proper computerized soldering robots and assembly line to make a reliable product so I will go back to working for a living. Never fear though, soon our new bikes will come with these batteries from the manufacturers and they will sell them across the shelves. I believe this is just the rare occasion that we find out about new technology that can be home brewed before a big manufacturer jumps on the opportunity. My guess is the manufacturers have extensively researched this idea and are still working on the reliability and probably building the balancing and monitoring systems into the battery or the bikes themselves. Sorry for the long reply but this is something I really took a passion too, for a bit. If anyone catches me at a track day though, I will show you my R&D prototype
 

Wink

New Member
Wow!~ Jason, thanks for all the info!!! I learned a ton in this thread. Looks like I'll have to have you come to Chicago some weekend and coach me on what to do to a couple of bikes. Bring Diane!
 

BigKid

New Member
Wink, with all your bikes Ill have to buy a ton of A123 cells. Would love to see you some time this summer. If I ever get my butt out of Nebraska to ride this year. Maybe Iowa Speedway?
 

Carnag3

New Member
On my 06 R6 I was using the BDK race genny and stator, its about a $1000 setup. I was also using a 8 cell superbike battery. I never knew that you needed to modify the regulator in order to run the BDK stator on the R6. The R6's charging system regulates power a weird way. During the CCS NJMP race weekend I was borrowing bikes to make it through the week.

The owner of the company has agreed on replacing my stator. The bike did rev up faster and it was a huge noticeable difference, but I do not feel like paying $250 for a modified stator in order to use the BDK race genny/flywheel. I'll be selling my BDK stuff once I get the new stator.
 

ScottLevy

Control Rider
So is it possible to remove the flywheel completely? If so, is it a correct statement to say that the flywheel prevents engine braking and therefore if removed that you would now have more engine braking?

Does anyone have any info on how to remove the flywheel? Should I just follow the procedure in the service manual? I haven't checked it, but I assume it's in there.
 

BigKid

New Member
NO, you can not remove the flywheel unless you have really good fillings. The motor will shake itself apart. You can lighten it. very popular on V-twins. V-twins generally have very heavy flywheels due to the unbalanced nature of their firing order. Many people remove them and take them to a machine shop to have weight shaved off. Go to far and you will regret it though.
 

crewnutz

Member
whats the point?

why would you need such a system? sounds like more of a hassle and spending money with no gain
 

vtjballeng

New Member
Number864;128249 wrote: Has anyone done this? I've seen some guys push-starting their bikes so I assume they've removed the starter.

I have an 04 R6 and am interested in doing this, but keeping the starter. I've heard that you need to remove the Stator to reduce the drag (if any) of the magnets as well as the flywheel so there's less rotational mass to spin up. Then you get a smaller battery and wire the Stator wire to the negative terminal and the Generator wire to the positive terminal. Then you just need to charge the battery when not running so it has enough juice to run the starter and power you for the length of your session.

It sounds like it just requires some wiring and mechanical know-how, but I could be wrong.
I've seen batteries for around $200.
Can anyone comment on this procedure in general or more specifically for the R6?
Thanks.
Total Loss = bad. Required current increases for injector and ignition events if properly compensated. Increased dwell requirement for proper coil charging could be a problem at extreme rpm and increased injector opening times will affect both the high end and low end mapping. If not compensated, improper fuel and ignition are delivered. Performance losses, increased current loads, etc = no. Don't.
 

BigKid

New Member
it use to be popular back in the carburetor days when you only had ignition to run. It decreases spinning weight in the motor which allows the motor to spin up easier and lowers overall weight and gyroscopic effects of inline motors allowing bikes to turn easier. Now days it just does not pay off enough to make up for the headaches.
 

ScottLevy

Control Rider
vtjballeng;128856 wrote: Total Loss = bad. Required current increases for injector and ignition events if properly compensated. Increased dwell requirement for proper coil charging could be a problem at extreme rpm and increased injector opening times will affect both the high end and low end mapping. If not compensated, improper fuel and ignition are delivered. Performance losses, increased current loads, etc = no. Don't.
Why does required current increase?
If you remove the stator you don't have to charge any coils. Not following you there.

Let's for a moment assume that the engine is internally balanced and you do remove the flywheel and the stator. How would this affect fuel injection as well as the chargng system?
 

BigKid

New Member
a device that requires 13 vots, 5 amps requires more amps at 12 volts, and as voltage in the battery drops amperage draw increases, I think is what he is saying.

Don't know if I agree with it but it would take looking into.

A 120volt fuse rated at 5 amps is a 50 amp fuse at 12 volts? something like that?
 
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