Trail Braking Blues

[D52]

Hey everyone,

Short Version of Question:

What are the best ways to work on trail braking on the track?



Long Version of Question:

I feel like I’ve hit a plateau in the middle of the Novice group. I’ve been working on the typical skills of lines and body position and while certainly far from perfect, they definitely have improved. While I could keep working on those, I think it’s time I start to address trail braking, or more precisely, my blatant lack thereof. After all, how much better are my lines and BP really going to get if I’m breaking and accelerating at the wrong times and places?

I attempted trail breaking a few times last year and remember it feeling very, very unnatural. I’ve thought about what’s working against me, if you will, and came up with the following: First, I was a student of the MSF “have your breaking done before the turn” mentality. Second, I still ride on the street… in PA… home of potholes, poorly-patched potholes, and gravel pits, especially in turns. Unless I’ve ridden the road recently, I am usually fully decelerating beforehand, will then evaluate the roadway condition, then accelerate (often starting before the apex) thru it upon determining there are no obstacles. Finally, I think my car driving habits have crept in as well. I drive relatively quickly, but I coast… a lot. To stop signs, red lights, curves, slower traffic ahead, you name it, especially if it’s a road I travel frequently. Great for MPG and making breaks last forever, not particularly great for the track and I’ve caught myself doing it on a bike at the track more times than I would care to admit.

Based on my little self-eval, it seems I’m looking for ways to work on the physical skill itself, get over the mental factor (which is just as big for me) and get past my bad habits (or perhaps more accurately, habits that don’t translate well to the track.) I do understand the concept and the science behind trail breaking though at least. That’s the easy part!

I will be at PIRC on Friday and would like to start addressing it then. I attended the Friday-before-race-weekend last year and found the Novice session to be lighter and the CRs more preoccupied than normal (that’s not meant as a bash, I realize there’s a lot going on preparation-wise this weekend) so it seems like the perfect opportunity to practice my skills on my own.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[wmhjr]

Hey everyone,

Short Version of Question:

What are the best ways to work on trail braking on the track?



Long Version of Question:

I feel like I’ve hit a plateau in the middle of the Novice group. I’ve been working on the typical skills of lines and body position and while certainly far from perfect, they definitely have improved. While I could keep working on those, I think it’s time I start to address trail braking, or more precisely, my blatant lack thereof. After all, how much better are my lines and BP really going to get if I’m breaking and accelerating at the wrong times and places?

I attempted trail breaking a few times last year and remember it feeling very, very unnatural. I’ve thought about what’s working against me, if you will, and came up with the following: First, I was a student of the MSF “have your breaking done before the turn” mentality. Second, I still ride on the street… in PA… home of potholes, poorly-patched potholes, and gravel pits, especially in turns. Unless I’ve ridden the road recently, I am usually fully decelerating beforehand, will then evaluate the roadway condition, then accelerate (often starting before the apex) thru it upon determining there are no obstacles. Finally, I think my car driving habits have crept in as well. I drive relatively quickly, but I coast… a lot. To stop signs, red lights, curves, slower traffic ahead, you name it, especially if it’s a road I travel frequently. Great for MPG and making breaks last forever, not particularly great for the track and I’ve caught myself doing it on a bike at the track more times than I would care to admit.

Based on my little self-eval, it seems I’m looking for ways to work on the physical skill itself, get over the mental factor (which is just as big for me) and get past my bad habits (or perhaps more accurately, habits that don’t translate well to the track.) I do understand the concept and the science behind trail breaking though at least. That’s the easy part!

I will be at PIRC on Friday and would like to start addressing it then. I attended the Friday-before-race-weekend last year and found the Novice session to be lighter and the CRs more preoccupied than normal (that’s not meant as a bash, I realize there’s a lot going on preparation-wise this weekend) so it seems like the perfect opportunity to practice my skills on my own.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

D52,

Hard discussion to easily put in a post. Stop up at my pit and let’s talk about how to help your progression. I’ll be at the top of the hill in a large white race trailer and a white dodge truck. If you’re there Thursday evening that would be best, otherwise we can find a little time on Friday. This is certainly a more hectic weekend but we’re still there to help guys like you no matter what.

Bill

 

[MrFrzz]

Full disclaimer - I only have 1 track day under my belt and a long way to go in Novice. I've only been riding for a little over 2 years, and havent taken CSS or YRCS yet... so take it for what it's worth.

I'm originally from West Virginia - Just south of Pennsylvania actually - so I understand your trial by fire when riding on public roads. I have been fortunate enough to have gone through some advanced training from a close friend that has gone through the 4 levels of CSS, Penguin Racing School, and is certified to teach the Total Control program through Lee Parks. MSF is a fantastic way to start riding on the street, but as our skills increase and we become smoother on the street (not faster) we have to revisit the mechanics behind them. One of these is the "trailbraking on the street" debate and the MSF instruction of covering the lever with 4 fingers.

One thing my friend/ instructor drilled into us was that we practice it AND MASTER trailbraking on straights first. This might sound counter intuitive, but eliminating the variable of leaning the bike will get you used to how the attitude of the bike behaves when applying the brake under throttle, accelerating, etc. Modulate the brake and throttle together in various ways to get used to the feeling of it and idea of braking in a turn. Once this is mastered on straights, try it lightly in corners. I found that as my first day progressed, I was able to trail my brakes off better and better once I was smooth at releasing the lever. The first time I tried it, I released the lever - WHAT I THOUGHT WAS SMOOTHLY - and the attitude of the bike was completely unstable as I was tipping in. Mentally noted that, and gave it another shot the next go round. The biggest thing working against you is probably inside your helmet.


Hope this helped at least a little.

 

[Ron R]

I also have a lot to learn but if I’m trying to learn a new skill with my bike I apply it to everything with wheels. My cart always has the best race lines at the grocery store. The trail breaking in my pickup truck is in off the charts. And everything I do on my track bike I do on my street bike within the law of course (usually). Some of the things I’ve learned in the last year contradict what I’ve learned over my life time. But I trust in my new track family and I apply it to the best of my ability. Good luck and definitely look up Bill.

 

[tdelegram]

Go see Bill in “Creeper Corner” Thursday night, if he or his companions are too frightening (I know who stays up there), I’ll be in a large toy hauler by hot pit entrance with my r1, rc8, and rc390. I am happy to help out too.


Tom

 

[bacolmm]

It all made sense to me when I did a two up ride with Scott Russell and felt that front contact patch flatten out and grow. Trail braking is as much (if not more) about getting the bike pointed in the desired direction as about slowing the bike down. There is an absolute gold mine of free technique instruction out there in the form of Ken Hill Coaching podcasts. You can find them on iTunes and even on YouTube...

 

[HondaGalToo]

Take Bill up on his offer. Trailbraking is also a valuable technique for the street. Apply the brakes smoothly, and let off them smoothly as well. To start, just work on leaving the brakes on a bit as you tip in - you'll do most of your braking straight up and down, but you'll 'trail off' as you add lean angle. You'll only have about 2% of your brakes on as you tip in - just enough to keep the pads in contact with the rotors, just enough to activate your brake light. It is easier to explain in person.

It's great you want to learn, and you will! If you are at NJMP June 30/July 1, look me up as well.

 

[D52]

D52,

Hard discussion to easily put in a post. Stop up at my pit and let’s talk about how to help your progression. I’ll be at the top of the hill in a large white race trailer and a white dodge truck. If you’re there Thursday evening that would be best, otherwise we can find a little time on Friday. This is certainly a more hectic weekend but we’re still there to help guys like you no matter what.

Bill

Bill, you're apparently the one to talk to! Unfortunately, this evening will not be an option for me as I have a long workday and will not be arriving until morning. Maybe we can find a few minutes during lunch? I appreciate your time!

Go see Bill in “Creeper Corner” Thursday night, if he or his companions are too frightening (I know who stays up there), I’ll be in a large toy hauler by hot pit entrance with my r1, rc8, and rc390. I am happy to help out too.

Tom

Haha! I've been to enough of these rodeos to see the the types of people who show up! I appreciate the offer.

One thing my friend/ instructor drilled into us was that we practice it AND MASTER trailbraking on straights first. This might sound counter intuitive, but eliminating the variable of leaning the bike will get you used to how the attitude of the bike behaves when applying the brake under throttle, accelerating, etc. Modulate the brake and throttle together in various ways to get used to the feeling of it and idea of braking in a turn. Once this is mastered on straights, try it lightly in corners. I found that as my first day progressed, I was able to trail my brakes off better and better once I was smooth at releasing the lever. The first time I tried it, I released the lever - WHAT I THOUGHT WAS SMOOTHLY - and the attitude of the bike was completely unstable as I was tipping in. Mentally noted that, and gave it another shot the next go round. The biggest thing working against you is probably inside your helmet.

That's an interesting idea... I'll have to keep it in mind. And yes, there are definitely some mental factors at play.

I also have a lot to learn but if I’m trying to learn a new skill with my bike I apply it to everything with wheels. My cart always has the best race lines at the grocery store. The trail breaking in my pickup truck is in off the charts. And everything I do on my track bike I do on my street bike within the law of course (usually). Some of the things I’ve learned in the last year contradict what I’ve learned over my life time. But I trust in my new track family and I apply it to the best of my ability. Good luck and definitely look up Bill.

I do work in a grocery store...

It all made sense to me when I did a two up ride with Scott Russell and felt that front contact patch flatten out and grow. Trail braking is as much (if not more) about getting the bike pointed in the desired direction as about slowing the bike down. There is an absolute gold mine of free technique instruction out there in the form of Ken Hill Coaching podcasts. You can find them on iTunes and even on YouTube...

Those are good points. I do know there are some quality (and not-so-quality) resources out there, though as someone who is regularly correcting individuals who come in to speak with and start with "I read on the internet..." I typically prefer to ask people who I know know what they're talking about, then supplement with additional information if needed. But I will add Ken Hill to the quality list.

Take Bill up on his offer. Trailbraking is also a valuable technique for the street. Apply the brakes smoothly, and let off them smoothly as well. To start, just work on leaving the brakes on a bit as you tip in - you'll do most of your braking straight up and down, but you'll 'trail off' as you add lean angle. You'll only have about 2% of your brakes on as you tip in - just enough to keep the pads in contact with the rotors, just enough to activate your brake light. It is easier to explain in person.

It's great you want to learn, and you will! If you are at NJMP June 30/July 1, look me up as well.

Thanks for the tips, Judy. Unfortunately, I will be busy that weekend making sure the bank account has money for more track days!

 

[rob92]

Dustin,

If you like, we can do a very short (15min) clinic in the paddock using a few cones and at no more than 25mph. We use these drills in our ATP program which are directly modeled from the YCRS teaching methods. In very short order, we get people to feel what trail braking actually is and you'll be using brakes past tip-in in no time at all. We'll also be doing two-ups on Friday as well so you can get a good sense of how loading that front tire before making it work actually feels like. It's very eye-opening.

Once you start using your front brakes effectively, you'll use them everywhere and always (and can't ever imagine NOT doing it). Street, track, racing, it's the most powerful control on your motorcycle. This is how the fastest people in the world do what they do while keeping their machines on the track (2 or 4 wheels). Even if speed is not your goal, being able to do things safer at the same speed and being ready for the unexpected is critical.

Until we started N2, track days orgs (NESBA included) wanted nothing to do with trail braking as a teaching method. It's our opinion that everyone should learn this day-one on a motorcycle. Even schools that have poo-poo'ed it are starting to work it into their curriculums.

Just this Monday, we had a special YCRS event for the YPO (Young Presidents Organization) as sort of a team-building excursion. Many of the riders (at least 1/2 the school) had never even used a clutch before. By midday, they were not only riding well, they were using brakes past tip-in. Oh, and not a single tip-over all day.

So while I won't knock on early learning programs like MSF and others, we feel they'd be much more effective teaching these techniques very early on.

In case you have not seen this on our site: http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/ - this is an article by Nick Ienatsch discussing the topic.

 

[Ron R]

Rob gave me a ride around Pitt last summer. Really opened my eyes to what can be done with the front brake. I felt like shit that day so if I get another’s chance to ride I’ll jump. If you get a chance don’t pass it up. One of the guys in class didn’t do it and I really think it could of helped him.

 

[D52]

Dustin,

If you like, we can do a very short (15min) clinic in the paddock using a few cones and at no more than 25mph. We use these drills in our ATP program which are directly modeled from the YCRS teaching methods. In very short order, we get people to feel what trail braking actually is and you'll be using brakes past tip-in in no time at all. We'll also be doing two-ups on Friday as well so you can get a good sense of how loading that front tire before making it work actually feels like. It's very eye-opening.

Once you start using your front brakes effectively, you'll use them everywhere and always (and can't ever imagine NOT doing it). Street, track, racing, it's the most powerful control on your motorcycle. This is how the fastest people in the world do what they do while keeping their machines on the track (2 or 4 wheels). Even if speed is not your goal, being able to do things safer at the same speed and being ready for the unexpected is critical.

Until we started N2, track days orgs (NESBA included) wanted nothing to do with trail braking as a teaching method. It's our opinion that everyone should learn this day-one on a motorcycle. Even schools that have poo-poo'ed it are starting to work it into their curriculums.

Just this Monday, we had a special YCRS event for the YPO (Young Presidents Organization) as sort of a team-building excursion. Many of the riders (at least 1/2 the school) had never even used a clutch before. By midday, they were not only riding well, they were using brakes past tip-in. Oh, and not a single tip-over all day.

So while I won't knock on early learning programs like MSF and others, we feel they'd be much more effective teaching these techniques very early on.

In case you have not seen this on our site: http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/ - this is an article by Nick Ienatsch discussing the topic.

Rob,
Sorry for the late response. (It's been a long day.) I completed ATP in 2016 when I first started track days. I do believe you were teaching it! It definitely made me feel more comfortable on the track. I do recall there being some trail braking practice involved, but that portion fell victim to the information overload that was also occurring that day. I have considered taking it again, but since it's not offered this month and next month is booked, I think that short clinic would be very helpful if it's not to late to set up. Thanks!

 

[andykurz]

I always come in here to say you should try a day at MiniGP. Its a great environment to learn on and you may end up trail braking on your very first lap. It's a short, low speed course

Trail braking is like "riding a bike", once you start, you'll wonder how it was possible to ride without it.

 

[Dom17]

Eyes up.

One of the things that I struggled with when I started at the track was "riding the front tire". I too live in PA and on the street you have to watch for potholes, tar snakes, and gravel. This leaves little room to train yourself to look forward. Practice getting your eyes up, scanning the track ahead. If you look down track your perception of speed will change greatly(this also applies to looking at the bike in front of you if you are trying to pass). We brake until we are comfortable with our speed. If you are looking at the runoff area of the turn you are focusing on your fear and you will overbrake and not have enough speed to trail off the brakes in the turn.

An example of this perception is driving a care on the highway at 70mph. This is not cognitively loading as we are looking down the road, if you look out the window at the shoulder it appears as though you are going much faster than you are because you lose perspective and reference markers.

Consider taking a lap at 60-70% pace assuming you are normally pushing yourself a little harder. With this lap try looking down the track and scan back and forth. You will notice that your perception of speed will change. This was the single biggest improvement that I made when I was in novice.

Once you get trail braking figured out you will feel naked without it.

Also consider taking a serious look at your bike, is your suspension set up correctly, are your tire pressures correct? Daytona 675s are very twitchy as they lack trail which does not inspire confidence on turn in for which there are some solutions. Also make sure you are not weighting your inside arm which will make the steering feel like it has "locked up".

 

[D52]

Special thanks to Bill for taking time out of his very busy day last week to sit down with me and talk about breaking. He helped to redefine my approach to the skill and it feels like a more manageable problem to solve now. Some additional input from a couple other CRs (sorry can’t remember names at this point) and even the YCRS group (Beth and Chris) who were following me around my 7th session helped as well, plus the tips and ideas given here on the forum so thanks all around!

How it’s just a matter of practice and focus.

 

[D52]

Eyes up.

One of the things that I struggled with when I started at the track was "riding the front tire". I too live in PA and on the street you have to watch for potholes, tar snakes, and gravel. This leaves little room to train yourself to look forward. Practice getting your eyes up, scanning the track ahead. If you look down track your perception of speed will change greatly(this also applies to looking at the bike in front of you if you are trying to pass). We brake until we are comfortable with our speed. If you are looking at the runoff area of the turn you are focusing on your fear and you will overbrake and not have enough speed to trail off the brakes in the turn.

An example of this perception is driving a care on the highway at 70mph. This is not cognitively loading as we are looking down the road, if you look out the window at the shoulder it appears as though you are going much faster than you are because you lose perspective and reference markers.

Consider taking a lap at 60-70% pace assuming you are normally pushing yourself a little harder. With this lap try looking down the track and scan back and forth. You will notice that your perception of speed will change. This was the single biggest improvement that I made when I was in novice.

Once you get trail braking figured out you will feel naked without it.

Also consider taking a serious look at your bike, is your suspension set up correctly, are your tire pressures correct? Daytona 675s are very twitchy as they lack trail which does not inspire confidence on turn in for which there are some solutions. Also make sure you are not weighting your inside arm which will make the steering feel like it has "locked up".

All good points. A couple (eyes up, break until comfortable with speed) were mentioned on Friday by multiple riders as well so I've made sure to include them in my approach.

With regards to the bike, I have started to make a point about asking the tire rep about pressures when I visit different tracks or different weather conditions are present. After I bought the bike, I sent the suspension to Markbilt for a spring swap as I weigh far less than the previous owner. The only thing I haven't done is have someone fine tune the suspension with the whole "try a few clicks here and a few clicks there" as it seemed that would be the least beneficial of the 3, at least at my stage in the game, so I instead chose to focus on skills.

 

[wmhjr]

Special thanks to Bill for taking time out of his very busy day last week to sit down with me and talk about breaking. He helped to redefine my approach to the skill and it feels like a more manageable problem to solve now. Some additional input from a couple other CRs (sorry can’t remember names at this point) and even the YCRS group (Beth and Chris) who were following me around my 7th session helped as well, plus the tips and ideas given here on the forum so thanks all around!

How it’s just a matter of practice and focus.

Dustin - no thanks necessary. I'm just paying back for all the people who helped me when I was starting out. I think you'll find that as you progress, people enjoy helping folks that are truly interested in learning and getting feedback. Getting good, fast and safe on the track is absolutely an exercise of eating the apple a bite at a time.

Just make sure as you get all this advice that you focus on just one or two things each session that you go out. As you get proficient on those things, they'll become "automatic" to some extent, and you can focus on some different things. Before long you won't have to think about preparing for corner entry, or the correct lines. Also, expect that you're going to have stretches where it doesn't feel as though you're improving - and then all of the sudden another thing will "click". Progress is not linear. It can be a series of step functions. So don't let that stuff get in your head. Just ride your ride, enjoy yourself, keep on learning, and you'll be amazed at how easy things that used to be frustrating can become.

 

[Slitherin]

As a PA MSF instructor, I wish I had that flashy thingy the Men in Black had so i can make you forget everything you learned about cornering in the MSF Class. Great street riding information to stay safe with other motorists but when it comes to cornering it missed the mark. In fact MSF updated the curriculum to include Trail Braking but the range exercises were still a function of get all braking done before entering the curve. PA also just changed the curriculum for 2018 to Lee Parks Total Control. TC is more in line with the modern Trail Braking concept.

Bottom line is did the PA MSF class teach you how to ride safely on the street with other traffic? Yes? Perfect. That is what its goal is. Less fatalities on the street. Now to take your riding to the next level, take the ARC (still semi street focused) because its free in PA. Take another ATP where you can focus on a few things rather than be overloaded like you were in the first ATP. Do a Champ Day, then save up for a full YCRS school. Do these spaced apart so you can apply the skills learned in each setting and when you feel like you are at another plateau, sign up for the next class.