2018 - Acceptable Oil Filter Brands?

mdhokie

Member
I ordered a couple Yamaha filters and will change it out, hopefully won't lose too much oil, but will probably make a mess and get oil on everything since it won't be drained. I've never tried to do it that way before. When I take it out, I intend to test the K&N filter hex nut on my used filter to destruction to see how vulnerable it is to failure. Will post the results.
 

jimmyz63

New Member
I have no problem throwing my unused k&n filters in the trash. Already ordered Hilfo filters as a replacement. My concern is riders failing tech for something not banned in the riders manual. I could have been one them.
 

MrFrzz

slow and wide
My concern is riders failing tech for something not banned in the riders manual. I could have been one them.

This.... I'd been aware of reported failures, but was under the impression it was limited to a "batch" or certain run. Already trying to thread the needle with getting my wife ready for track.. looks like I'll need to go ahead and order some oil and a filter as well.
 

Mike:p

Don’t be a Hero, be consistent.
I ordered a couple Yamaha filters and will change it out, hopefully won't lose too much oil, but will probably make a mess and get oil on everything since it won't be drained. I've never tried to do it that way before. When I take it out, I intend to test the K&N filter hex nut on my used filter to destruction to see how vulnerable it is to failure. Will post the results.
I keep a few large pieces of cardboard in my garage to go under my catch pan to soak up the splatter when I can my oil. You might want to get some since that might get a little messy. Just find so old cardboard boxes that you tear apart so they are completely flat. If things get out of hand you will be glad you did.
 

mpusch

Micah
I have no problem throwing my unused k&n filters in the trash. Already ordered Hilfo filters as a replacement. My concern is riders failing tech for something not banned in the riders manual. I could have been one them.

I was surprised when I read that. That's definitely something that should be announced ahead of time.
 

MrFrzz

slow and wide
I was surprised when I read that. That's definitely something that should be announced ahead of time.
+1

Is this something that is probably/definitely/likely to come down the pipeline as an official change in 2019?

I've got no problem with it if so, and am already in the process of getting things switched over, but its starting to sound like it will be at the Tech CR's discretion if they even look for it. This means that two bikes could go in to tech side by side with k&n filters, be inspected by two different CR's and one pass while the other fails.

Full disclaimer- I think that N2 runs a fantastic track day and I think it will be hard to run with anyone else- especially if they don't value safety and instruction as much as N2. So please don't take that as me attacking any of the inspectors or the jobs they do. I think they're very efficient to get folks in and out while making sure they're meeting standards.
 

mdhokie

Member
I changed out my K&N filter for a Yamaha OEM. As promised, I'm testing the old filter to destruction, and verifying whether I can in fact actually detect any problems with design, materials, etc.

Visual inspection:

(can't get the image insert to work)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yaV0Xi0K90jfaelGTC6kTTMDsIEXZKi3
open


Filter still looks like new. No sign of the spot welds coming loose, or any bulging or tearing. To verify, I pried at the edges with a screwdriver, and also struck each side of the nut with a hammer. No sign of separation. Squeezing the filter walls in my hands as hard as I can, the metal does not flex or cave at all--the outer shell metal appears to be quite thick and strong. The seal is intact, with no nicks, tears, or abrasions.

Testing to destruction:
I then anchored the filter in a vise, and used my torque wrench with a 6-sided impact socket to verify how well the nut stood up to torque. I do NOT use the nut for installation, but I do use it to get the filter off (makes it very easy), and for safety wiring. I first tested at 10 ft-lbs of torque. No problem. I then tested at 20, 30 ft-lb. Still no problem, but it started slipping in the vise so I had to crank down enough to start to deform the filter. 40, 50, and 60 ft-lb, still no problem, but I had to keep tightening the filter in the vise. At 70 ft-lbs, the nut stripped so that I could no longer get any purchase on it with the socket.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KMSGeJMfJyeuUtx86Hw6RWyjDTAwrN0a

Even with the nut stripped and the filter partially caved in by the vise, the nut and plate on the end was solid, and not a single spot weld had failed. I then took it farther by using a screwdriver as a chisel with a hammer and forcing it through the spot welds. Some of them I couldn't get enough of a seam to enter, but I got through half of the welds on one side. Peeking underneath, it looks like there are additional weld points under the center nut.

Conclusion:
There was nothing wrong with design, materials, or workmanship of my filter. A sample of one, of course, does not prove anything about quality control across all filters, but it does seem to show that any problems with the end nut welds failing were specific to a particular batch, run, or manufacturing process and is not endemic to the entire line.
 

wmhjr

Grandpa
Control Rider
I would encourage you to take a look at Six Sigma. A test of one unit is hardly a measure of quality, nor does it take into consideration heat cycles, vibration, etc. In other words, a true C&E matrix as well as an FMEA would certainly show that far more tests of different variables would be required. It's also very possible that while you could not detect separation of a weld, etc, that there were cracks or seams that under pressure and heat would vent oil. Given the fact that there was no pressure involved, it's simply impossible to say. Your conclusion that "there was nothing wrong....." is premature. It would be more accurate to say that "I was able to detect nothing wrong.....". You've applied a subset of tests conclude compete positive outcomes across all variables even though they were not tested. It's a single sample of a small percentage of variables in an uncontrolled fashion. I have no dog in this fight but an individual test on a single filter qualifies as anecdotal information. I was going to mention that up front but actually had hoped that the entire issue would be dropped.

Beyond that, this is a matter for somebody else to decide. There is no information that could possibly be presented here regarding the specific filters that will impact what has been systematically reported. We'll have to wait and see what the decisions are. I respect whatever opinion anyone has but the facts are that there are reported issues - and decisions will need to be made by people other than us discussing this in this thread.
 

mdhokie

Member
@wmhjr -- You are right, as I qualified, a test of only one, anecdotal. Your assertion that my test did not take into account heat cycles, vibration, or pressure is only partially correct, since it already did multiple track days on my R1 and did indeed see heat cycles on some of the hottest days this summer, plenty of engine vibration, and normal operating pressure, and there was no trace of vented oil on my bike. I only lack pressure/heat cycle/vibration testing for the informal tests with the filter off the bike. I realize that there is absolutely no way to prove that there isn't a systemic problem (and there may indeed be), but I wanted to get a hands-on experience testing the filter for weakness myself, rather than getting my opinion entirely from the internet. After doing this, I do feel like changing the filter was just throwing my time and money away for a very small risk, but I have an open mind and would have felt differently if I had actually turned up any problems. I will use the Yamaha filters from now on for the comfort of others, so you don't need to worry about me.

I also have no dog in this fight, except that I like the nut-on-the-end feature, as it is quite a bit easier to safety wire and to remove. The hose clamp took me twice as long and looks uglier. The only issues I have are 1) as people mentioned, the possibility of failing tech for something that's not listed in the rule book, and 2) I admit, some defensiveness to the posts that imply I am an irresponsible person endangering us all for having purchased a product from a reputable brand that has worked well for me for years. I was aware of the recall when I bought the filters, and verified that the part number was not implicated, but I was not aware of any other verified failures.
 

Otto Man

John
Control Rider
You're not alone, I miss the nut on the end as well. Easiest thing to do with the hose clamp is just safety wire it to the excess of the clamp (that's past the worm screw) so you can simply use the screwdriver to loosen/install it. When the new filter goes on, I just rotate the clamp as much as I can to make the wire tight, and tighten down the clamp. Easy day.

I agree with Bill 100%, and find this dead horse has gotten beat so hard in the last 2 years it's either humorous or just flat out annoying (because they'll keep arguing it despite the long list of evidence)...depending on my mood at the time. LOL :D It's also funny to me that the topic still pops up...and I can bet you it will pop up again (probably on here) in just a few months, with a different guy saying "Well I've never had any problems..." and the cycle goes on.

Here's how I can best relate it. It's like debating the pull out method. So you got a few dudes saying they pull out and never got a chick pregnant. It worked for them, so by their logic, it works 100% of the time. However, in the grand scheme of things, statistical data shows them being 100% wrong, but you'll never really convince them because "it works for them". That is, until it doesn't. Then, all of a sudden, it's Oh shit, I messed up.

I am glad you changed out the filter. I had 2 K&N failures myself. I, like hundreds of others, have changed a few thousand filters in my time and am certain I can install them correctly. They had a batch of failures, simple as that. At this stage of the K&N-gate 2016/17/18, yes, continuing to run a filter that has been deemed unsafe by K&N themselves, is indeed irresponsible. Worst case scenario - your oil filter blows and oil gets over your rear tire and you (and possibly others, from the your oil you spilled all over the track) get a nice ride to the hospital. Or you don't crash but oil down the entire track as your empty your crankcase all over the track. You'll be the most popular guy in the paddock when the track closes for most of the day to clean up your oil. ;)

All this over a $5 oil filter. Five bucks.
 

mdhokie

Member
@Otto Man, thanks for the report! Yours is actually the first report I've seen of a filter outside the recall failing (it wasn't the recalled one right?). I did do the internet research as Bill suggested, and I saw reports of failures, but not one of them confirmed that it wasn't a recalled filter.

At this stage of the K&N-gate 2016/17/18, yes, continuing to run a filter that has been deemed unsafe by K&N themselves, is indeed irresponsible.
I agree 100% - are we speaking of the recall here? Or all K&N filters? I didn't see any reports of K&N pulling the whole filter line.
 

mdhokie

Member
By the way, I am in no way attempting to ignore evidence, I just didn't have any (even doing targeted searches for failures) beyond what sounded to me to be an brand opinion like "all foreign cars are junk", "all Fords are junk", etc. I appreciate evidence to the contrary and I stand corrected. I don't consider any single recall to be indicative of an entire brand, or you could never buy another car again. In fact doing a recall is the responsible thing to do (assuming you found and fixed the problem) and the sign of a good company to me.
 

wmhjr

Grandpa
Control Rider
Funny. It took my google skills abou 25 seconds to find examples of failures totally outside the recall. Not just by date range but totally different parts and bike applications.
 

bmart

Control Rider
flogging_a_dead_horse__dom_nelson.jpeg


I've never understood putting a nut on something that needs to be hand tightened, especially knowing that humans (ok, men) over-tighten everything.
 

Otto Man

John
Control Rider
I've never understood putting a nut on something that needs to be hand tightened, especially knowing that humans (ok, men) over-tighten everything.


Neither of my failures were at the nut, from the spot welds or whatever. I actually caught mine before they had a chance to fail. They simply didn't seal at the O ring and would seep oil every time I'd blip the throttle (and oil pressure increased accordingly). 100% chance it would have let loose out on track. No doubt about it.
 

meanstrk

Control Rider
Sure, it is a dead horse, but the last I saw was that we as an organization do not officially ban K&N filters, though we VERY highly discourage the use of them. We should not be failing bikes at tech for them, particularly in Novice and Intermediate. That being said, I have personally had two of them fail on me. Both were oil seal o-ring failures and the second one resulting in VIR being shut down for over an hour while the track was cleaned from T6 to T7. I will never again run an external K&N filter on one of my bikes. It's is either OEM (For my Suzuki) or Hi Flo (For the R6).
 

rob92

Control Rider
N2
Guys,

We're having a directors meeting tomorrow evening and this will be one of the topics. The reality is that there have been failures, even outside of the specific lots cited. Other racing (and track) organizations have banned them, so we may want to follow suit. If we do ban their use, we'll just communicate this effectively to minimize any issues.

We had a new rule thrown at us (literally last minute) about paddock rules for NJMP. Our position to the track wasn't so much about the new rules, but the fact that it needs to be communicated at the gate and not NJMP staff reprimanding members [customers] after they've setup at the track. That said, they took our advice, they printed maps, turned out to be a whole lotta nuthin'

We do this right, it could wind up in the same category.
 
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