I-group passing rules: control rider wave-by

[Otto Man]

these comments exemplify my frustration. yah, I get that i'm allowed to outside pass. Please read the earlier the posts.

The rules are there for a reason. It's as simple as that. Like I said in my earlier post, there is much more to the track day than just your part. Do I personally think all "I" guys need a wave by from a CR? No, I don't. There's a pretty good wide margin of riding capabilities in "I" group. But you can't play favorites, and you don't make exceptions. Rules are the rules. And at the end of the day, requiring a wave-by is the SAFEST way of managing traffic. Maybe they'll experiment with the rules to see how it works - rules aren't ever set in stone. But it's worked for thousands of riders before you, and it will work for thousands of riders after you. I just can't figure out how out of a 2 day weekend, these 4 laps, from one session, seemed to completely ruin it for you (Note: I am not excusing the lack of turning back from the CR for 4 laps).

I can assure you, 100% without a doubt, that without CR's managing traffic, riders on course would never find their own equilibrium. It would cause nothing but a giant rubber band effect, and a TON of upset riders.

You coming out to ride Shenandoah at the end of this month? I would be more than happy to sign up in "I" group with you, and have you show me where you think you're getting held up at.

 

[i-Zapp]

...there are folks chiming in that are faster than you, have more experience than you both riding and running a track org, and they've chimed in on why its in place?
Now these threads always end the same. You walk away unsatisfied. We walk away wondering why you choose to focus on this kind of stuff. We're riding motorcycles maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!
Hope you come out again and don't sweat the small stuff.

1. why do you presume that you have more experience than me, or are faster (you might be)
2. why do you presume that we will walk away unsatisfied when posting frustrations
3. why do you presume that this is small stuff for me

My point is that the wave-by is a practice that needs to be reconsidered. Coming from a fairly well traveled track day veteran.

 

[Otto Man]

Yeah, don't believe that Pseudolus guy. Rumor has it he paid off some CR riding a sv650 to get into "A" group!

LOL!

 

[LesPow]

LOL "young grasshopper"? how'd you come up with that?? but thank you! Honestly, what "instruction" are the control riders really providing?? - this traffic management strategy is strictly an attempt to keep riders from passing in the corners; there's nothing actually learned from it (or being taught). You're working on your lines etc getting into your groove, and then whoooa big check up... wait patiently to be granted permission to execute your straightaway pass. How did that improve my skill set?

Haha @ "young grasshopper" but I meant in terms of rider ability..anyways, The "wave by" is not an attempt to stop riders from trying outside passing, on the contrary, as I have encouraged some riders to try outside passing, even by example. I point where they should be on the line especially in the first laps, if needed. I'll work with riders by observation, feedback, and a re-eval to see if corrected. Blah, Blah, Blah I could go on and on, we all could.
I tried to imagine sessions without it,(the wave by) and think I would feel more vulnurable to riders approaching uninhibited from behind and out of control, as we know they are in N, I, A groups for a reason.
You have experienced track days where there are no wave by's...I'm assuming... so your riding with us and feel restricted or held back, but rest assured the "wave by" has its place and purpose. Unfortunately in conjunction to the fact that you have ridden without the "wave by" with whomever...a CR held you back for four laps. Your opinion is true for you as having the wave by in place true for us. Agree to disagree.

 

[motorkas]

1. why do you presume that you have more experience than me, or are faster (you might be)
2. why do you presume that we will walk away unsatisfied when posting frustrations
3. why do you presume that this is small stuff for me

My point is that the wave-by is a practice that needs to be reconsidered. Coming from a fairly well traveled track day veteran.

Zapp, believe me, he's not presuming any of that (I know because he's my brother and I was with him when he first read this thread (truthfully, at first his primary focus was figuring out a way to slam Dave. . ..

Here's the shitty thing about posting on the forum (regardless if day of, day after ect). . .talking in person is so much better and communicates so much more in less time and the odds of miscommunication dramatically decrease (typing on the internet, as has been proven over and over again, dramatically increases the odds of miscommunication - you're missing tone of voice, non verbal cues and every thing else that goes along with understanding someone else's point of view - as well as we're all missing it with you!!!!!!).

I can tell you without a shadow of doubt, my presumption was that there was going to be a healthy amount of "flaming" and just as candidly, I want to commend Les, Kris and Rob for their responses and the professionalism and obvious desire to make this club (and it's riders) better and the subsequent tone they set for this thread with those replys. And to the other members (my brother excluded because he OBVIOUSLY has already started hitting the Stoli). . .they're just trying to help (Otto, every time I see more than two sentences from you, I know it's going to be something good!!!!!!).

I personally give CR's a ton of leeway, simply because I've shadowed more than a couple and the demands on them are pretty extraordinary. We're all human, playing in an environment with machinery beyond our capabilites where mortality is something that has to be seriously considered. Sure it's fun, but as I like to tell people, there really is a lot more going on than just fun. Rob and Kris flat out said it shouldn't of happened (Kris even highlighted that in bold in his reply - if you're not aware - they are the top of the food chain of this org so believe me, you were heard loud and clear and they aren't the type to do nothing about it or just forget it). . .Les, also alluded to not knowing why it was done and then gave suggestions on what to do with that time (since even though it was unfortunate that it happened, still doesn't mean a better outcome could be had).

My personal opinion is that PIR is hard track to control frustration because the bumps can be VERY intimidating for those who have never been there, its a tight technical track with limited opportunity to pass on the outside and it's short. . .I'm guessing that based on the lap times in A, 4 laps at PIR would be about the same as 2.5 laps at NJMP time wise. . .once again, not making excuses for the CR (just like everyone else isn't) just trying to help with other alternatives if you're ever in that position again!!!!

Finally, here's my take on the wave by (I'm not a CR but I have listened to the riders meetings enough to understand the logic behind it) - when a CR turns around to check out behind him (or her), they automatically start drifting in the opposite direction. . .if an I rider is going to pass right as the CR turns to look behind him, it could get ugly in a hurry. . .the wave by has never been conveyed to me as a way to manage flow, it's for the coaches safety (interestingly enough, this is starting to become a big issue in auto track days because recently several coaches have been unfortunately killed while giving instruction on the track).

To the rider that unfortunately when down - I truly am sorry you went down, but I know this for a fact: when CR's inside pass in I group on a rider, they're evaluating that rider for A group because inside passes come out of nowhere, they're very close and more often that not, they take away your line and stand you up. One of my final days in I group, I got 3 CR's in a row run up on the inside of me and they capped it off with one passing me on the inside, the other on the outside so there was literally nowhere to go. I know that pass looked sketchy on video but it was a legit A group pass and one that you would be subjected to over and over again in A group. I know it doesn't help having to put your bike back together and having your day end that way but I just thought you should know that.

Here's something that was posted on the BMW forum I'm a part of from this weekend (he's actually the rider video taping). . .it's the other side of the coin. . .

 

[motorkas]

Yeah, don't believe that Pseudolus guy. Rumor has it he paid off some CR riding a sv650 to get into "A" group!

LOL!

This post was so right, it deserved it's own reply. . .

 

[Pseudolus]

Yeah, don't believe that Pseudolus guy. Rumor has it he paid off some CR riding a sv650 to get into "A" group!

LOL!

LMFAO!!!!!!! It was well worth it to get out of that group with the slow a$$ CR's!

1. why do you presume that you have more experience than me, or are faster (you might be)
2. why do you presume that we will walk away unsatisfied when posting frustrations
3. why do you presume that this is small stuff for me
.

I have nothing more to say to you. Best of luck in your future endeavors.

Actually, I'm not Zen Buddhist enough to quote Dave's line for dealing with a no win conversation and leave it at that.

1. I never speak about myself in the third person outside of the bedroom. I was referring to the other really fast and experienced guys that have chimed in here. I've got maybe 6k miles under my belt. Perhaps my lack of veteraness is what makes me still adore the CRs that work their asses off to keep us safe while making us faster. I tend to take a "glass is half full" view of things....

2. I presume you will walk away unsatisfied because there was LITERALLY an emoticon on this website that said "the CRs are slowing me down" . It was meant to mock a person who got butt hurt (I've been dying to use that phrase) by the issue you are now talking about.

3. I do not presume that this is small stuff for you, but I know it is small stuff for me.

 

[steftoff]

I am one of the slower I riders and have been buzzed by the faster guys of the group. I think the way the CR's manage the group is great. Call me a pussy if you must but at Summit back in May coming into turn 1 it was like a parking lot. For the faster more experienced riders that is no big deal but for us slower guys that can spook some and lead to trouble. If I have been held up before I hot pit and move on.
I am not doing these days for racing. I do them for fun. So having the CR's backing us down or spreading us out is fine. They are looking at it from a safety aspect more so than disrupting someone's pace or groove.

Stefan

 

[HondaGalToo]

To the rider that unfortunately when down - I truly am sorry you went down, but I know this for a fact: when CR's inside pass in I group on a rider, they're evaluating that rider for A group because inside passes come out of nowhere, they're very close and more often that not, they take away your line and stand you up.

I have nothing to add to this post, as it was addressed by Rob and Kris. And I have no comment on the video, I didn't witness it. I only have one general comment on Kas' post above. He is correct about how CRs evaluate for the A bump by inside passing a rider in I group. However, the part I've bolded....I take exception with that...even in A group, your line should NOT be taken away and force you to take evasive action. This is a trackday, not a race, the rider in front has the right-of-way, it is the passing rider's responsibility to make a clean pass. We should be passing cleanly in ALL groups, including the A group. If your pass causes another rider to stand up and alter their line, it's a bad pass. Yes, you will be passed close and on the inside in A group. Sometimes on the inside and outside at the same time. They do that to you in I group to make sure you won't spook and stand yourself up because they're close; they want to see that you'll hold your line. There's a fine distinction there. Close passes shouldn't spook you and make you alter your line, however, they shouldn't be so close that you are not spooked, but are forced to alter your line because you were cut off. The passes that take away your line and stand you up should be the rare exception (we're human, it happens sometimes), but it shouldn't be the norm.

Pass for the comfort of the rider you're passing, not your own comfort. That's a fine line to draw, as what seems perfectly comfortable to you may not be to the passed rider, for whatever reason.

 

[i-Zapp]

Before this thread really unravels, I think I need to hit RESET (I'm allowed, i'm the OP). It seems that N2 has some issues that they need to discuss among their management - but since this org is a "club", I've offered my suggestion for a change: abandon the I-group wave-by. I'd hate for riders to get so turned off that they quit riding with N2. I genuinely want N2 to succeed because quite honestly the more riding opportunities there are, the better it is! Over and out.

 

[acchou]

My experience and .02. I never had an issue with the wave by. Every time I show a wheel or even before then the CR usually wave me by or they go faster and leave me in the dust. Rules are there for every one so some faster folks may get the short end of the stick. If you think the CR is slowing you down and counter productive then you are ready to be in the A group. Ask them to be evaluated for the A group. I usually get frustrated at the traffic, CR, and such. But I started to do what someone else suggested here. To practice on my other areas. I use to be afraid of passing people on the outside. But with slower traffic and slower speed I am now comfortable passing folks on the outside at a decent pace. Also, it was really crowded this weekend and the CR's are doing the best they can. I know you are not bashing the CR's you are talking about the wave by's. If that rule applies to the 80% of the I group and keep the track safe then in my opinion it is a good rule. Unfortunately the other 20% will not like it, but the other 20% may need to be evaluated to be in the A group.

 

[acchou]

Oh I am not saying the CR's are perfect as you can see on the first video or maybe the wave by's. But we are all humans and we are not perfect.

 

[andykurz]

Another complaint posted on a day other than the day of the event. TLDR.

P.S. Show a wheel, get waved by.

CYA

 

[Otto Man]

Another complaint posted on a day other than the day of the event. TLDR.

P.S. Show a wheel, get waved by.

CYA

Well talk about not beating around the bush... LOL!

 

[CBRtist]

You get an A+ for patience. 4 laps behind this guy and then 24+ hours submitting feedback/suggestions? Not sure I could have waited that long.

It's highly encouraged to bring issues as they occur to directors at the event. It can be difference between being part of the solution and part of the problem.

It sounds like you've checked out, but I sincerely hope you don't walk away from this experience bitter and/or resentful.

 

[Mikey75702]

Here's something that was posted on the BMW forum I'm a part of from this weekend (he's actually the rider video taping). . .it's the other side of the coin. . .

This video illustrates a very good reason for the people in I group to pass on the outside. It is more dangerous for you to make the pass, so there is LESS chance of you taking out the rider you are passing. Unfortunately in this video, a rider was taken out while for being on the outside. This is something that Pontrelli used to hound me about, is not riding to the inside of someone when I was behind them, and it was for exactly this reason, if the rider in front lays it down, it will probably collect you.
Imagine you are the passing rider, in I group, with a great need to continue honing your skills, and you pass someone on the inside and tuck the front trying to make the tighter corner.... You then wrecked the guy in front you, because you wanted to pass without having the skill set to do so. This is why it is best to wait for those passes till you get to the A group.


As for the CR holding you back for 4 laps... That sucks. I can't say that I have ever had that happen to me. Any time I "think" they are holding me up, I show them a wheel, and have quickly been taught that they normally slow you down for a reason. I have learned many valuable lessons from showing a CR a wheel and having them tow me around the track for a while to work on whatever it was they were holding me up for.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

This post was so right, it deserved it's own reply. . .

Truth requires "no reply".

BZ

 

[PA Vfr]

Maybe it was just a bad day on Saturday, but I had the same experience with a CR. I tried twice to show him a wheel but apparently didn't get noticed. My buddy behind me did the same. I followed him for 3 laps then pitted in. Not a big deal to me but it was frustrating because that was one of the few times that day there was open track (there was no traffic in front of the CR for a while) and I couldn't get to it. Traffic was bad. After hot pit I went back out I caught up with a cluster of traffic after the first 4 turns and decided that was enough for that session.

I wouldn't have said anything because its not that big of deal to me, but it obviously wasn't an isolated incident either.

 

[i-Zapp]

You get an A+ for patience. 4 laps behind this guy and then 24+ hours submitting feedback/suggestions? Not sure I could have waited that long.
It's highly encouraged to bring issues as they occur to directors at the event. It can be difference between being part of the solution and part of the problem.
It sounds like you've checked out, but I sincerely hope you don't walk away from this experience bitter and/or resentful.

Not checking out, just didn't want to belabor the point.
To be quite honest, I was irritated about being held for 4 laps, but it's not my real bitch - I'm more concerned about the fact that I have to be granted permission to pass control riders. It upsets the pace, and serves only to temporarily prohibit passing in corners. I get the flavor that N2 seems to think that I-group riders are generally incapable to do so, and I don't think that's true - as evidenced by the dozens of TDs I've attended in I group over the years. Listen - I am trying to HELP, not create drama.

 

[Otto Man]

There's a reason most on the forum aren't agreeing with you. And it has nothing to do with the fact that some are good friends and have spent a LOT of time on track together at 100+ MPH. The reason is that 99.9% of the time, the CR's are never the ones holding you back. And, if they are, there is a reason (traffic management, you're riding over your head, etc).

It sure seems like you have experienced an isolated incident - a CR not looking back for 4 laps, and this (apparently) consistent problem with CR's not looking back and letting you by. But again, it raises a few questions:

- As a seasoned track rider (Like you claim to be), you should know that problems don't get resolved by posting it online after the weekend is over. Why did you not talk to any of the staff at the event, the day of?
- Why did you not show the CR a wheel? They cover that, time, and time again at the rider's meeting. Like I stated earlier - I'm not part of the staff, but I'd bet you a damn track day I could give the rider's meeting and not miss a thing. And part of that rider's meeting, they cover this. I have never attended a NESBA/N2 event where they did not (Covering the topic if you're not getting a wave by, to show them a wheel indicating you want to pass).
- Why did you not find a CR in Intermediate and explain your situation of not getting adequate wave by's?

Note: I am not excusing N2 of any of this alleged problems. But on the other hand, how can you expect N2 to address the problem(s) if you never give them a chance to fix it?