NEED SOME ADVICE AFTER LOW SIDE @ PITT EVENT

[atahan koymen]

Hi all,

It was a memorable weekend for me to say the least. It was my 2nd event as a novice (last year June was my first). Every session i went out managed to learn more and more. The session before my lowside incident i started scrubbing the pegs frequently which made me nervous. (my bike is completely stock). So i decided to slow the pace down and work more on body positioning hanging out my cheek more and more and concentrate on the location of my head etc. for the final session of the day.

Final session just with sticking with the plan mid session i managed to touch a knee for the first time in my life in turn 7.(right hander beginning of the S turns. At the end of the session(at least for me LOL) coming to turn 7 at 4 gear as usual. Got on the brakese at 300 marker as usual and down shifted to 3rd gear as usual and still applying the brake towards the cone for tip in. mean while my body positioning was already set up for turn 7. Just about to tip in i was releasing the brake and turning the bike in ( I am not sure if i still had brake very little on as i tipped or was i completely out of brake as i was tipping in, i had the nastiest tank slapper head shake i have ever felt in my life. It was so violent, and I saw the handle bars literally shake as i hit the floor. I am still clueless what happened here, why, was it me or something broke on the bike. I have been running things in my mind million times last 48 hrs still not sure. Any advise highly appreciated. I feel like a tank slapper is caused by light front end. I just dont understand how can the front end be light under braking.

Luckily i am okay but the bike right side has some damage. needs rear sets, brake lever, right side bodywork. This is my hobby and i dont know much about bikes and i work long hours. I was wondering does anyone know a place in cleveland or pittsburgh area that works on motorcycles, track preps them. I live in youngstown ohio but i am willing to travel and drop the bike off for the right preparation. And when i say preparation i mean first safety(i want to know this bike is safe to ride after this incident especially) the bike has adequate components for track use, and suspension tailored for my body. I am not interested in engine work etc, bike is plenty fast for me.

I am sorry for the long post and i am truly sorry if i messed up my other fellow novices session saturday end of the day.

Thank you in advance.

 

[TimTheAsian]

You have video? Its darn near impossible to gauge what happened by just words, especially coming from the person that had the incident, no offense. (aka if you knew exactly what happened then you wouldn't be asking this question.) Tip in while coming off the brakes in my experience aren't common causes for tank slappers.

 

[JBowen33]

Aftermarket rear sets are a must.

 

[atahan koymen]

You have video? Its darn near impossible to gauge what happened by just words, especially coming from the person that had the incident, no offense. (aka if you knew exactly what happened then you wouldn't be asking this question.) Tip in while coming off the brakes in my experience aren't common causes for tank slappers.

Tim your point is well taken. Unfortunately i dont have any videos. Only thing i can tell you is When i ride try to do the same thing at the same location on the track(marker) over and over again best i can. That way i believe the response from the bike will be same, repeatable, predictable and not unpleasantly surprising. This caught me off guard because i did the same routine approaching that corner. And in no corner that day i had even slight similar reaction from the bike. And believe me few times i missed my braking points in earlier sessions loaded up front brakes like super hard missed my tipping point etc. Let me ask you this then what are few common causes of tank slapper or violent headshakes like this right before your tipping in point?

 

[atahan koymen]

Aftermarket rear sets are a must.

Yep!! First thing i ordered today!!

 

[tdelegram]

Tim is correct anything would be conjecture but here’s what came to mind based on your description. You said you were on the brakes until tip in then released them (you should be carrying front brake to apex there). My guess is you released the brake too fast cuasing the forks to rebound and unload the front tire marking the contact patch very small while turning in cause a front end slide, when the forces equalized (fork started to compress again and make the call bract patch larger) the wheels were not in alignment hence the end swapping of the front end. All things equal you ended up better off than if it high sided you. Ken Hill has some great pod casts you should listen to that will help you better understand safer faster track riding.

 

[Motofun352]

Proper use of trail braking is a key skill to learn as you progress. It's not easy (at least in my opinion) so it takes quite a while to learn to trust it. The YCRS school was critical in my learning process and I find that I still need to work on it in every session. When you do get it dialed in it improves cornering confidence significantly.

 

[wmhjr]

Where are you riding next? I ask because it would help to get some eyes on you. My antenna was up as soon as I read you were scraping pegs in novice. I for one would suggest taking a look at basic suspension settings just because of that, as well as being very concerned about really excessive lean angles. Lots of variables that others have mentioned and only some eyes on will really provide more clarity.

 

[Dom17]

Usually tank slappers happen on acceleration, that is really odd to have it on tip in.

Some things to consider:
The initial 5% of brake and last 5% of brake are the most important. You should not be hard on the brake and then release all the pressure all at once. If you suddenly release all the brake pressure your front will extend quickly. As you get faster your inputs get smoother.
Take a listen to this: https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-534763963/podcast-28-is-it-brake-pressure-or-brake-timing

Also while I personally feel that rearsets are one of the best upgrades you can get on a bike as ergonomics are one of the most important factors, do not use the increased clearance to fix a symptom(getting more ground clearance). Use the rearsets to better fit the bike to you and have a better ability to have proper body position. At novice speeds you should not be leaned over that far that hard parts are dragging. It is clear you are working on body position so that is great. Make sure to take advantage of the photos to see what you looked like rather than what you think you looked like.

Also another things to consider is the possibility that you chopped on the throttle as you were transitioning to the gas and did a small wheelie while leaned over and put it back down with the front tire not in line while leaned over, that would certainly cause a tank slapper. The initial application of the throttle is very slow and smooth as the chassis shifts its weight. You have to load the tire before you work the tire(same goes for brakes).

Hope some of that might help and good for you to try to learn from the crash! Connect with a CR next track day and seek out some feed back.

 

[Slitherin]

Sounds like you were taught to ride like many of us had been. "Get all your braking done straight up and down prior to initiating the turn." Unfortunately we were taught wrong and some schools still teach this. I'm a MSF Instructor and up until recently, it was still the way we taught to brake for a corner. If you get a chance to listen to the theory of Trail Braking the concept of releasing your brakes (thus creating a smaller contact patch) prior to needing all the contact patch you can get sends chills up my spine. YCRS teaches you brake until you are happy with your speed and direction. If I find that I don't need to trail brake all the way to the apex, I know that I gave up speed in that corner and I can carry lighter brake pressure longer into the corner than the lap before and carry a little more speed the next time. The ideal process (short version) is to brake all the way to the slowest part of the turn (possibly the apex but not necessarily) trailing off brake pressure as you increase lean angle ("Trail Braking"). A smooth transition from braking to accelerating at the slowest point of the turn transfers that nice big contact patch on your front tire to the rear tire. So many people say they "Lost the front" and if asked whether they were on the brakes, off the brakes, or on the throttle? they respond either "I wasn't on the brakes or on the throttle" or "I had just started to add throttle." Both cases the front lost traction because the contact patch was at its smallest point.

Trail Braking used to be an "Advanced" riding technique that we were told to leave to the professionals or expert racer. It is not an "Advanced" technique, it is the proper technique and we now teach this to everyone from novice level track riders to beginning level riders in MSF classes. Proper technique is proper technique. Physics don't care what skill the rider on top of the machine has. Little contact patch = Bad for cornering.

Trail braking is definitely something that you have to train yourself to do and only after constant attention to the technique is the habit finally forming with me. I recently watched a video I took from on my bike that I realized that I was trail braking consistently in the corners. It took some mind over matter exercises to trust brake pressure while turning but it has smoothed out my corner entry as well. Now I don't have that pogo action that is created by releasing the brake prior to the corner. YCRS (Yamaha Champion Riding School) has a demonstration that shows this action and when you see it and know this is what your bike is doing right before you enter a turn you'll just shake your head and curse that MSF instructor that told you to get all your braking done straight up and down.

As far as the tank slapper, you may have just simply lost traction and as the tire was still trying to gain traction and thats what you felt. The good news is you are ok. Bikes are easily fixed and like I had a conversation with a rider on Monday, see how far you slid? Now picture that out on the street. How many stationary objects or other vehicles would you have com in contact with in that distance? You were in the right place, with the right gear, and with the right company to ride your bike to the best of your ability. There is always that balance between skill and performance and sometimes we get a little off and learn the hard way. Been there, done that, have the scars to prove it. The key is to learn from those lessons and apply new skills learned to keep that offset in check.

I hope this might be something that you can read and see if it might apply to your situation. Place in your toolbox for future rides both on and off the track.

 

[cumberlandjack]

Atahan,
Really listen to the feedback you are getting regarding trail braking. If you are able to attend a YCRS school, Do It! Trail braking changed everything for me and removed any fear or confusion I had about cornering. As you will hear Nick Ienatsch preach, learn to ride your bike stock before doing alot of mods. Rear shock is a great mod.

 

[atahan koymen]

Where are you riding next? I ask because it would help to get some eyes on you. My antenna was up as soon as I read you were scraping pegs in novice. I for one would suggest taking a look at basic suspension settings just because of that, as well as being very concerned about really excessive lean angles. Lots of variables that others have mentioned and only some eyes on will really provide more clarity.

As soon as take care of all the repairs which is nothing major. Since i live about 30 minutes away from the track, i only plan to attend PITTRACE events.

But My main HOLD UP is to get the bike track ready in terms of components. (tires, brake pads, fluids, adj. rear sets, suspension set up for my weight etc) That is why i am looking for a decent shop in Ohio or PA that can prepare this bike for track events. I want them to go through the bike make sure everything is okay. My back ground is formula car racing in SCCA, i can set up a FA, FC, FF car no problem. But 2 wheels is completely new to me. Add also complexity of lean angle/body positioning the puzzle becomes more complex as you know. Margin of error is so low, and set up mistakes without knowing what I am doing can hurt. I feel like there are few things wrong with the bike to my liking but since i dont have much experience i assume may be its the way it supposed to be. I need to find an establishment that can give me a baseline setting and go from there. I dont want to go back to the track without a properly set up bike. I dont know where you are located but do you know a shop that can provide these type of services?

Thanks

 

[Dave561]

Barnes’s brothers are out there and members of the club. If I were out that way that is who I would use

 

[wmhjr]

Atahan, where are you actually located? I'm just south of Pitt Race. Dave is right, BTW - Barnes Brothers is probably your best bet in the area - south of Pitt Race about an hour. Very close to me.

 

[atahan koymen]

Atahan, where are you actually located? I'm just south of Pitt Race. Dave is right, BTW - Barnes Brothers is probably your best bet in the area - south of Pitt Race about an hour. Very close to me.

I am in boardman Ohio 44512. Very close to newcastle which is border of OHIO/PA. I looked up they are in Canonsburg PA which 90 min from me!! Is there a contact name I ask for?

Thanks

 

[wmhjr]

I am in boardman Ohio 44512. Very close to newcastle which is border of OHIO/PA. I looked up they are in Canonsburg PA which 90 min from me!! Is there a contact name I ask for?

Thanks

Ask for Liam Barnes and tell him you’re from n2.