Technique questions for the masters

Noobtron

New Member
Hey chicos,

I am a relative noob to track riding, and something has always confused me. Say I am coming down the straight at 120 mph, and I came to a right hand turn. I would then brake to scrub off the appropriate amount of speed, down shift to the correct gear , position my body and then begin to execute the turn.

The only thing I think I am fouling up is my use of the throttle. I realize this sounds incredibly noobish, but I am obviously off the throttle while braking and down shifting, but do I then pick it back up to a certain RPM range so that I can have my continuos and smooth roll on of the throttle during the turn?

I think my issue is that I coast too often, where I will I brake then sort of lazily roll into the turn and then begin to accelerate. I assume there should be virtually no down time on the throttle. Yet when I try that the coaches say I am charging the turns.

Forever your helpless noob.

Thanks!
 

avizpls

#11-A
Its most easily conveyed by telling you to pick up the throttle at or JUST before the apex. Corners vary, but a smooth roll on is usually right about the apex. If its jerky when you roll back on after brakes, then you have a FI bike and I'm sorry about that :p

sometime soon the Masters you speak of will chime in.
 

Noobtron

New Member
avizpls;283480 wrote: Its most easily conveyed by telling you to pick up the throttle at or JUST before the apex. Corners vary, but a smooth roll on is usually right about the apex. If its jerky when you roll back on after brakes, then you have a FI bike and I'm sorry about that :p

sometime soon the Masters you speak of will chime in.
I seeee.

But the moment before you hit the apex (yet after all the initial braking/shifting) how would you describe your throttle position? Off?

Thanks!
 

dbarufaldi

Member
This is about how it works for me...

Full throttle down the straight.
Reach brake marker, roll off throttle completely, ease into brakes,increasing brake force as I approach turn-in.
At turn in, counter steer into corner, easing off brake as I add lean angle.
Trail brake until I am happy with my speed, then ease off brakes completely and start to add throttle.

Depending on the corner, either maintenance throttle until I can take away lean angle, or some amount of more throttle, appropriate to thedegreeof lean angle.

As the corner opens up, stand the bike up, full throttle.

There are some nuances I didn't touch on that probably don't matter for a noob, such as varying where I ease off the brake on/before turn-in, the brake/gas transition as it relates to apex, etc. Also please note there is no stabbing, slamming, tossing, flinging, flicking, whacking or other aggressive moves described. Roll on and roll off the throttle, ease on and ease off the brakes.

I agree there is very little coasting at race pace, but I didn't really stop doing that (well, mostly stop) until I had the ability to comfortably approach the pace that delivered.
 

LesPow

Control Rider
You coast before turn in? Brake lighter, or later, use markers to assist or grab a CR for more inst. @ TD
Charging the turn, meaning getting on the gas at turn in, maybe way before apex to make up for too slow an entry speed? The prob presents itself while adding lean on the gas; bad idea.
You want to add gas while picking bike up, using all the track and exit drive line.
 

damiankelly

Member
This is a favorite diagram of mine--Hope it helps--


TrailBrakingdiagramLR-e1280055314994.jpg
 

pajixxer

Brad Burns
Control Rider
Slow into the turn, fast exit
Fast into the turn, slow exit.

Trail breaking is important, that's what the diagram above illustrates. There's a thread on here somewhere with some pretty useful info on that topic.
 

vinny337

Vin is in...Beastmode!
Control Rider
Great info - This is what works for me...I set my body position first, break at marker (depending on what's going on in the corner), look into the turn and trailbreak from turn in to apex, on the gas at the apex as I'm standing the bike up and repeat...:cool:
 

zstylem86

New Member
as soon as you become comfortable with all that has been said, you will begin downshifting as you brake. beginners are all taught to do these actions separately. body position, downshift, brake, turn and accelerate. you'll know your getting fast once you start combining these so smooth that you won't even realize it.
 

beevan217

Member
Along with what everyone here has posted in response, your EYES are very important in gauging your entry speed, reading the line & finding your exits. The further down the track your eyes are, the more your sensation of speed is diminished. If you ride the front wheel, it gives you the illusion of going faster than you actually are.

Pick definitive reference points, work on being consistent & smooth. Take notes after each session when possible to study. Utilize the resources you have at the track WHILE at the track (CR's). Make small incremental adjustments in your reference points, markers & pace. You don't want to take big chunks of progress that may create "OH SH!&" moments that can affect your confidence. Take your time, use your sessions & use your resources. And one very IMPORTANT thing: B R E A T H E!!! It sounds simple but, sometimes while trying to work on things we forget to breathe & relax. You'll be fine.....
 

Blipstein

Member
I would then brake to scrub off the appropriate amount of speed, down shift to the correct gear , position my body and then begin to execute the turn.
That's a little out of order. "Position my body" should be first on that list. Move your butt over before you brake or downshift. When you reposition your body (which is a pretty large percentage of the bikes overall weight) you upset the chassis and suspension. That's the last thing you want to do right before you tip it in. "Early Set-up" is the key! The only time you should be sitting in the middle of the bike is down a straight. You should always be anticipating the next turn with your butt. If you have 3 successive right hand turns in a row, even if there is a mini straight away between them you should remain off of the right side of the bike. The chassis/suspension are settled the entire time and its just efficient! Pay attention when they show the on board footage of MotoGP from behind the rider.

Here is some footage from behind. It's not the quickest session but it illustrates how early you need to get off of the bike

EARLY SET-UP

http://youtu.be/28Kcc4QIxN4
 

z064life

New Member
I must be the only one here that does it, but once I am at whatever lean angle is needed to follow my line through the corner, I am back rolling on the throttle. This is independant of the apex (before, at, after)....once I'm done turning, throttle can be used.
 

z064life

New Member
avizpls;283645 wrote: once you're done turning, thats called the apex ;)
I'm an engineer...the Apex is the point you are closest to the inside of the corner. You can be leaned as far as you are going to be prior to that point. And technically speaking your goal should be to "turn" (lean) as quickly as possible so you can get back on the throttle sooner.

I considering "turning" a bike the act of putting it on its side once you are at the lean angle you desire for that corner, you are done "turning"
 

z064life

New Member
avizpls;283727 wrote: This is the second thread in two days that I dragged off topic. Maybe I need a break. *selfban*
Replied to PM. For all others reading, I meant engineer in the sense that I'm literal and technical. So to me, being an engineer, the apex is the point you are closest to the inside of the corner. If there is another way to define it, I was more making sure when we say "apex" we are talking about the same point.

Now back to the thread...No need to self ban avizpls. Insight and other perspectives are good for everyone.
 

avizpls

#11-A
Got it. On to the turning: clearly we can both ride well enough to make it around the track. I think what we have is semantics regarding the terms "turn" and "lean". I was just poking fun when I said the apex is where you are done turning. Truly, if you break it down (as naturally an engineer would) you can point out that you are still leaning and therefore still turning at the apex (even an apex with an ambiguous definition). So in that manner, I concede. My initial post was an attempt at humor and as is often the case, important details are sacrificed for the sake of humor. Maybe it wasn't even funny.

When questions like these come up, its very hard to sum all corners up into one technique. The method you describe (back on the gas once lean angle is set) is good for a kink, or something where the speed doesn't change all THAT much. A full-on legit park-n-turn like most T1's will be easier to address using the methods brought up here. That is: body, brake, turn in, throttle roll-on, stand up n go. In there with the braking step is the downshifting as well. as others have said, the faster you go the more it all blurs together.
 
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