Thoughts on ULW Endurance classes for next year

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VBRacing

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Just an idea for the Ultralightweight endurance class structure for next year. We raced with CMRA last year in the 6 hour Westby classic and really liked how they split out the little bikes in to 400, 300 and 250. Obviously there aren't very many 250s still running around these days so came up with this.

500SS/400SB- Give a place for the new Ninja 500 and RS457 to run competitively. Allows the 400 superbikes that there may or may not be already on the grid to be legal :)
400SS/300SB- same thought as above. Make rules to fit all the MotoA 400s that are coming on the market.
300SS- give the R3s a class to be competitive- hell maybe even Yamaha throw a few bucks at it?
ULW Relay

Payouts could stay the same, only to overall podium, but points split out per class.
 
Sure would be nice if there was an honest way to make racing about racing, and not "pay to win."

Also ULW relay is a non-starter. Honestly relay in and of itself is fundamentally contrary to the very concept of endurance.
 
The B Team said:
Sure would be nice if there was an honest way to make racing about racing, and not "pay to win."

Also ULW relay is a non-starter. Honestly relay in and of itself is fundamentally contrary to the very concept of endurance.
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I agree wholeheartedly that relay is contrary to endurance. But also realize that it's a pathway to get people involved.
 
I mean...it makes more sense as a gateway in the 4 hour where the expense in both time and money are very high. The 2 hour is already incredibly cheap (comparatively) to get set up and run.

I have this argument pretty regularly, actually. I think what would get people involved is a sense of being able to compete honestly. As the rules stand though, whoever has the biggest credit card wins.

And, just to reiterate in case it wasn't clear; relay is an abomination.
 
The B Team said:
I mean...it makes more sense as a gateway in the 4 hour where the expense in both time and money are very high. The 2 hour is already incredibly cheap (comparatively) to get set up and run.

I have this argument pretty regularly, actually. I think what would get people involved is a sense of being able to compete honestly. As the rules stand though, whoever has the biggest credit card wins.

And, just to reiterate in case it wasn't clear; relay is an abomination.
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Outside of cost one of the attraction to relay is that you don't have to let someone else ride your bike- which brings in all the drama if something goes wrong. Even with little bikes that would be attractive to some.

As to 'pay to win'... my knowledge in to the bikes on the podium is pretty good. Nothing exotic there.
 
I mean...what drama? The teams I've been on or around all have a prearranged agreement on how repairs are covered. Shit happens. It's racing, and bikes are expendable.

Not exotic, potentially, but even the cost between SB and SS can be prohibitive to some regular club guys. So if the purse is going to the (semi)pro guys on SS bikes, what drives involvement? Faster bikes and faster talent are for sale, if you want to win. That's pay to win, in my book.

To be clear, I like the idea of classes you are describing (except relay,) I am just generally trying to constantly consider how to improve participation in the sport and pontificate upon ways of leveling competition. I think that harkens back to my days racing and handicapping sailboats. Hard to do in motorsports without reverting to spec bikes.
 
Also good discourse! ULW does sometimes have a very 'red-headed stepchild' vibe. Excited to see how it grows...to me the cheap thrills and fun involved will keep me coming back to ULW even after we make the jump to LW.
 
Yeah just looking out forward on the bikes that are going to be around for the class- they are still making the R3 and its a great entry level platform. But obviously very difficult to get it on the podium in ULW endurance. But with all club racing, we are really just there to get plastic bowling trophies so giving folks on that platform a shot at that might be good. Even with the Ninja 500 coming out the 400 tail is really long and as we've seen fast riders on a 400ss that have good stops will be in contention every weekend. It's pretty tough to run up front on a R3 at Road A, Pitt and Roebling with the straights and probably would be the same with 500 bikes vs 400s (equal rider).
 
My understanding is that the power and torque curves of the 450s do not make them the threat that they would appear to be on paper, but I have not done the research to determine if that is the case because, like everybody else, I'm patiently waiting to see what changes come in the rulebook for next season. As is stands, we'll still be on the 400. I expect them to hang on to the top spots for at least one more season while the aftermarket catches up to the new platforms.

I was sincere about liking the class splits...the r3 is DIRT cheap rn and could bring a lot of people onto the grid. Unfortunately, the prices of the MotoA bikes are exorbitant, likely a result of needing to cover the hefty price tag of the kramer, which I'm assuming we'll see on the grid as well and looks to be pretty formidable.
 
The B Team said:
My understanding is that the power and torque curves of the 450s do not make them the threat that they would appear to be on paper, but I have not done the research to determine if that is the case because, like everybody else, I'm patiently waiting to see what changes come in the rulebook for next season. As is stands, we'll still be on the 400. I expect them to hang on to the top spots for at least one more season while the aftermarket catches up to the new platforms.

I was sincere about liking the class splits...the r3 is DIRT cheap rn and could bring a lot of people onto the grid. Unfortunately, the prices of the MotoA bikes are exorbitant, likely a result of needing to cover the hefty price tag of the kramer, which I'm assuming we'll see on the grid as well and looks to be pretty formidable.
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Pretty sure the Kramer is not legal for any of the Supersport classes as the rules are today. The 690 has been exempted to compete in Superbike and above classes with WERA and Lightweight SS and above with ASRA. The new MA 350 seems to slot in to Ultralight GP with most clubs. But yes on paper I can't see any of the current production 500/400 bikes being able to run with it... maybe a real hot RS457.
 
Unsolicited thoughts. The ULWT class rules should be rigid and follow the MotoA rules as they are currently (next year it's a spec class and I heard you need AMA license to preorder) and be enforced from day 1 as you typically see at sprint races for supersport. This allows mods for the slower bikes and less for the 400s etc. I would prefer to see it split between Amateur and Experts with a 110% rule for qualifying to be applied for each class encouraging actual competition and therefore a little prestige and allowing better comp for more entry level endurance racers. This also discourages slower racers from signing up to compete until they carry pace to compete or just sign up for a GP or sprint to help build pace. If you want to ride for fun that's what Track Days are for and if you want to have fun racing sign up for a GP or sprint. There is no way to prevent the "pay for a pro racer on our team" and that should exist to continue to encourage and build a bridge to pro racing and also help grow the sport in other ways. Ride Learn, Race.
 
GummyShark430 said:
Unsolicited thoughts. The ULWT class rules should be rigid and follow the MotoA rules as they are currently (next year it's a spec class and I heard you need AMA license to preorder) and be enforced from day 1 as you typically see at sprint races for supersport. This allows mods for the slower bikes and less for the 400s etc. I would prefer to see it split between Amateur and Experts with a 110% rule for qualifying to be applied for each class encouraging actual competition and therefore a little prestige and allowing better comp for more entry level endurance racers. This also discourages slower racers from signing up to compete until they carry pace to compete or just sign up for a GP or sprint to help build pace. If you want to ride for fun that's what Track Days are for and if you want to have fun racing sign up for a GP or sprint. There is no way to prevent the "pay for a pro racer on our team" and that should exist to continue to encourage and build a bridge to pro racing and also help grow the sport in other ways. Ride Learn, Race.
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That would make only restricted 400s legal then. 110% at Pitt would have parked 7 of the 27 teams that went out for qualifying.
 
Not trying to hijack this thread, but my son and I ride R3's. New to track days this year, so obviously still firmly in the Novice field.

Do you need to be in Intermediate or Advanced in order to compete in races? The last thing I'd want is to be in the way, so I'm not trying to jump the gun. Just curious about what it takes to start competing.
 
Fredkayaker said:
Not trying to hijack this thread, but my son and I ride R3's. New to track days this year, so obviously still firmly in the Novice field.

Do you need to be in Intermediate or Advanced in order to compete in races? The last thing I'd want is to be in the way, so I'm not trying to jump the gun. Just curious about what it takes to start competing.
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Just need a WERA race license and a bike that will pass race tech. I don't think anyone runs race license schools this late in the year, but keep an eye out in the spring.
 
Fredkayaker said:
Not trying to hijack this thread, but my son and I ride R3's. New to track days this year, so obviously still firmly in the Novice field.

Do you need to be in Intermediate or Advanced in order to compete in races? The last thing I'd want is to be in the way, so I'm not trying to jump the gun. Just curious about what it takes to start competing.
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Generally speaking, race schools tell you that you need to be at least I group in order to take race school. That isn't completely universal, but it IS the best practice. Excited to see you guys out there on the grid, keep plugging away and it won't be long.
 
VBRacing said:
Just need a WERA race license and a bike that will pass race tech. I don't think anyone runs race license schools this late in the year, but keep an eye out in the spring.
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Ed Bargy does. I took mine in November. Ed's school also has the added benefit of counting (at least for WERA) as one of the two required provisional weekends, and comes with a nice, thick textbook, if you're into that sort of thing.
 
Yah so....following this morning's email, excited to see the rulebook drop. Great things coming our way.
 
VBRacing said:
my knowledge in to the bikes on the podium is pretty good. Nothing exotic there.
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2 of top 5 DQ'd @ Barber with 3rd place contender no showing. No idea if that's related or not. Big win for the kids of 119. Maybe I just need to lose 150 pounds.
 
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