I-group passing rules: control rider wave-by

[i-Zapp]

let me repeat - this IS NOT about the "4 lap holdup", but rather the question of whether the wave-by practice even needs to exist. Please see my post 2 earlier. As the club's official forum, I would expect that we can publicly share ideas/concerns/gripes about its practices, and maybe (it does happen) resolution can be affected. For the record, I DID discuss the wave-by topic with a CR early in the day (right after that bad crash in the carousel) and was told too bad that's the way it is.

 

[Otto Man]

let me repeat - this IS NOT about the "4 lap holdup", but rather the question of whether the wave-by practice even needs to exist. Please see my post 2 earlier. As the club's official forum, I would expect that we can publicly share ideas/concerns/gripes about its practices, and maybe (it does happen) resolution can be affected. For the record, I DID discuss the wave-by topic with a CR early in the day (right after that bad crash in the carousel) and was told too bad that's the way it is.

Yes, the topic of getting a wave-by from a CR is pretty much not up for discussion (From the CR's stand point). He doesn't make the rules. He just follows them. And, as of now, the current rules are you need a wave-by.

You never addressed any of my points. If the CR was that slow for you, it shouldn't have been that hard to show him a wheel. Right?

 

[Dave561]

I'm hoping it was worded a little better than that and yes please bring up every grievance. Preferably at the track and then as a follow up here.

Replies to your post were not meant to be an attack, although at times it can feel that way. We all have a passion for the sport and at times our replies share that passion. Please don't stop posting because you feel attacked or discounted, because that isn't the intent. Well maybe mine against Fahdee, but that's a whole other story

 

[motorkas]

I have nothing to add to this post, as it was addressed by Rob and Kris. And I have no comment on the video, I didn't witness it. I only have one general comment on Kas' post above. He is correct about how CRs evaluate for the A bump by inside passing a rider in I group. However, the part I've bolded....I take exception with that...even in A group, your line should NOT be taken away and force you to take evasive action. This is a trackday, not a race, the rider in front has the right-of-way, it is the passing rider's responsibility to make a clean pass. We should be passing cleanly in ALL groups, including the A group. If your pass causes another rider to stand up and alter their line, it's a bad pass. Yes, you will be passed close and on the inside in A group. Sometimes on the inside and outside at the same time. They do that to you in I group to make sure you won't spook and stand yourself up because they're close; they want to see that you'll hold your line. There's a fine distinction there. Close passes shouldn't spook you and make you alter your line, however, they shouldn't be so close that you are not spooked, but are forced to alter your line because you were cut off. The passes that take away your line and stand you up should be the rare exception (we're human, it happens sometimes), but it shouldn't be the norm.

Pass for the comfort of the rider you're passing, not your own comfort. That's a fine line to draw, as what seems perfectly comfortable to you may not be to the passed rider, for whatever reason.

Judy, completely agree with what you said and truthfully, it was an exaggeration on my part because being stood up doesn't happen more often than not (that was referring to not being able to see it coming (sometimes you can hear it coming and those are the only times I'm aware I'm about to be passed) and how close passes can be - the way it was written was incorrect and thanks again for clarifying that doesn't happen in A because it was a wrong statement on my part with that post. All the passes on me in A have been clean (whether inside or outside); What I noticed is that once speed differentials start to come down between riders (as well as which rider is on what displacement of bike) to set up passes on people who you can only get in one or two spots on the track, you end up getting much closer going into and coming out of turns and given the speeds around the track, the ability to deviate from the race line becomes smaller and smaller for those passes so we're much closer together going through the turns.

I also think there's a component of "knowing who you're riding with". We all know what each others bikes, leathers and helmets look like and there's a familiarity, that pardon the pun, "brings us closer together" in more ways than one. We know each other's history's, if it's been a while since they've been on the track, if they are riding a new bike, first time at that particular track ect that all dictates how we ride around each other (personally, one of my most pleasant surprises in A group was how often the phrase "hey, I'm weak at T__: what are you doing and can I get a tow next session." is said - case in point - I didn't even have to ask for a tow and Sternsi spent two sessions making me ALOT faster than at the beginning of the day). I know if I know who you are, I'm much more comfortable with you riding close to me and I also know that if I don't recognize your bike or leathers and I'm in the position to make a pass, I'll wait until it's clear there's plenty of room to make it. . .now, if you happen to be on an SV650. . .




J/K

 

[Luggageboy]

I wanted to chime in on this thread because I feel very strongly in support of the CR wave by. It allows them to have some control over the session and to keep us as riders safer if they see something or are handling a situation.

I have NEVER EVER not been waved by after showing a CR my wheel. EVER. I'm guessing you got behind a CR, waited for him to turn around and see you without ever pulling up on him and then wait until the event is over to bring up the issue. It is just plain silly in my eyes.... but what the heck do I know.

TLDR: the rules are more than fine, they are good and they help to keep us safe.

 

[i-Zapp]

this is getting comical - you guys are STILL on the 4 lap hold up thing, and three pages later nobody has bothered to provide a solid explanation for why the wave-by policy exists. I reiterated my position several times. I give up.

 

[HavocCat]

I think a couple people have said it exists to give the CR's some level of control of the event?

Could turn in to madness if you let 30+ adrenaline junkie speed freaks who think they are Rossi out on the track with no control.

 

[CBRtist]

I thought Rob was pretty thorough in addressing and responding to your question regarding the wave-by and also mentioned that it is something they have/are discussing. Some additional comments from other members addressed it also.

What specifically is not being answered that is frustrating you? Or is the frustration just that some seem to keep reiterating about getting held up by said CR?

 

[Otto Man]

It's been explained.

Rob's post, #5:

"Back on point, the reason this topic has been debated is that it's a double edged sword. While we want members to enjoy themselves to the fullest, we have to balance speed/traffic amongst the group or things can turn bad in a hurry. We are simply not of the opinion that allowing people to "self-govern" and sort it out yields a positive outcome. We've also kicked around graduated controlled passing (more controlled in morning, relaxed in afternoon) since a) we have a disparity in riding ability and b) an even larger disparity in folks getting warmed up and coming up to speed."

 

[motorkas]

this is getting comical - you guys are STILL on the 4 lap hold up thing, and three pages later nobody has bothered to provide a solid explanation for why the wave-by policy exists. I reiterated my position several times. I give up.

I hear ya, but it is not neccessarily counter productive, just a diff. approach to instructing young grasshoppers such as yourself the skills to riding faster more safely.

The notion that CR's are riding purely for traffic control is totally false. Most of the N2 CR's have received extensive training from the Yamaha Champions Riding School and are anxious to pass on what they've learned to other riders. We're also very selective about the bump from Intermediate to Advanced so although traffic control is part of the CR's responsibility ..... it is by no means their only reason for circulating in the Intermediate group.

George (I think that's you!).

Back on point, the reason this topic has been debated is that it's a double edged sword. While we want members to enjoy themselves to the fullest, we have to balance speed/traffic amongst the group or things can turn bad in a hurry. We are simply not of the opinion that allowing people to "self-govern" and sort it out yields a positive outcome. We've also kicked around graduated controlled passing (more controlled in morning, relaxed in afternoon) since a) we have a disparity in riding ability and b) an even larger disparity in folks getting warmed up and coming up to speed.


I will leave you with this: point taken, it's actually something we've been discussing for a while, and we're trying to come up with something that satisfies everyone without compromising safety.

Stay tuned.

Thanks,

Rob ..

This past Saturday afternoon @ the Beav needs some context though. There were wayyyyy too many red flags in the morning, and somebody from the I group got a helicopter ride in the 2nd session. In the first one after that in the afternoon, I followed a CR for a couple laps without a wave by as well. There were yellow flags out though. I have no problems with the track and the CRs taking an overly conservative approach in light of the morning events. They did the right thing in slowing everybody down a notch or two, which caused the afternoon to run a lot smoother.

Whats the problem with wave bys anyways? Besides one isolated incident, have you had other issues getting held up without a wave? Even after showing a wheel?

I've never taken part of managing a track day organization, and I've never donned a shirt either...but I have done a fair number of track days and seen a LOT of interesting things. And one thing you always have to keep in mind is that the track day is bigger than yourself. What do I mean by that? I mean that your view of the day is only a small scope of everything involved. Put yourselves in the shoes as if you were running the show. There were a lot of red flags Saturday morning. So had they not backed things down a notch, instead of you complaining about checking up on a large group, you would have been complaining about the lack of track time because of all the red flags throughout the day. Now, maybe not you in particular, but I assure you, somebody would have complained about it. It's happened plenty of times in the past.

So which outcome is better for the whole? Taking it back a notch, or just letting everyone crash out? Taking it back a notch. Why? Because it resulted in less red flags, which means less crashed bikes and less ambulance rides...and more seat time for you.

Having gone "full circle" - going from a novice rider that complained about liter bikes killing my 600 in the straight and I can't pass, complaining about no corner passes, then onto complaining about how you can only pass on the outside in intermediate, to finally riding in "A" group - I can assure you that they are all hollow complaints. They were never a problem to begin with, the problem always rested with me. It was me that didn't have the skill to pass the liter bikes on the brakes, and pass them that way. It was my fault I didn't learn how to start setting up a pass in a corner, only to time it so I passed him on the straight out of the exit. It was always on me, and the fact that I just didn't know how to get properly set up to do what I wanted to do.

So what's all that mean? There's a reason people are in Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced. They will always tell you that speed is not everything in Advanced group. And they are correct - but you'll never see a fast guy that doesn't know how to set up a pass.

My two cents for you to take to your next track day: Talk with a CR or one of the staff THE DAY OF, and tell them what's on your mind. Don't wait until everyone has gone home to complain about it online. Show a CR a wheel if they aren't looking back and you want to pass (Hint: They're probably not going to look back if there's a standing yellow flag on track...since that means no passing, right?!). And when you're caught up in those moments on track when you're forced to slow down, for whatever reason - use that time to really hone your body positioning, turn in points, learning where the bumps are at on track, etc. You cannot work on all these things while riding at 100% of your skill set. It's just not possible, and you will end up half-assing a little bit of everything, which eventually ends up with you sliding along the pavement.

The rules are there for a reason. It's as simple as that. Like I said in my earlier post, there is much more to the track day than just your part. Do I personally think all "I" guys need a wave by from a CR? No, I don't. There's a pretty good wide margin of riding capabilities in "I" group. But you can't play favorites, and you don't make exceptions. Rules are the rules. And at the end of the day, requiring a wave-by is the SAFEST way of managing traffic. Maybe they'll experiment with the rules to see how it works - rules aren't ever set in stone. But it's worked for thousands of riders before you, and it will work for thousands of riders after you. I just can't figure out how out of a 2 day weekend, these 4 laps, from one session, seemed to completely ruin it for you (Note: I am not excusing the lack of turning back from the CR for 4 laps).

I can assure you, 100% without a doubt, that without CR's managing traffic, riders on course would never find their own equilibrium. It would cause nothing but a giant rubber band effect, and a TON of upset riders.

You coming out to ride Shenandoah at the end of this month? I would be more than happy to sign up in "I" group with you, and have you show me where you think you're getting held up at.

I tried to imagine sessions without it,(the wave by) and think I would feel more vulnurable to riders approaching uninhibited from behind and out of control, as we know they are in N, I, A groups for a reason.
You have experienced track days where there are no wave by's...I'm assuming... so your riding with us and feel restricted or held back, but rest assured the "wave by" has its place and purpose. Unfortunately in conjunction to the fact that you have ridden without the "wave by" with whomever...a CR held you back for four laps. Your opinion is true for you as having the wave by in place true for us. Agree to disagree.

I am one of the slower I riders and have been buzzed by the faster guys of the group. I think the way the CR's manage the group is great. Call me a pussy if you must but at Summit back in May coming into turn 1 it was like a parking lot. For the faster more experienced riders that is no big deal but for us slower guys that can spook some and lead to trouble. If I have been held up before I hot pit and move on.
I am not doing these days for racing. I do them for fun. So having the CR's backing us down or spreading us out is fine. They are looking at it from a safety aspect more so than disrupting someone's pace or groove.

Stefan

I know you are not bashing the CR's you are talking about the wave by's. If that rule applies to the 80% of the I group and keep the track safe then in my opinion it is a good rule. Unfortunately the other 20% will not like it, but the other 20% may need to be evaluated to be in the A group.

I thought Rob was pretty thorough in addressing and responding to your question regarding the wave-by and also mentioned that it is something they have/are discussing. Some additional comments from other members addressed it also.

What specifically is not being answered that is frustrating you? Or is the frustration just that some seem to keep reiterating about getting held up by said CR?

^^^^ - Funny, I was in the middle of compiling the last three pages - apparently we're all reading a different thread. . .

 

[borislav]

this is getting comical - you guys are STILL on the 4 lap hold up thing, and three pages later nobody has bothered to provide a solid explanation for why the wave-by policy exists. I reiterated my position several times. I give up.

My friend obviously it does not matter how many CR's,N2 partners or long time members chime in and TRY to give you an explanation you will not be satisfied!I personaly won't even try because rules were there before me,before you and you may not like them but you MUST obey them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nuff said!!!

 

[i-Zapp]

all the replies talk about safety, but if you read between the lines (nobody's said it), I hear "the reason for the wave-by is because the CR needs to first assess each and every corner and decide himself whether or not the approaching rider has the wherewithal, given the circumstances, to make a safe outside pass while cornering". I know it's the current RULE, but I'm the type of person who challenges rules I don't agree with, and this is one of them. You don't have to change anything, I can fix this issue for myself very easily - but I know others share my opinion and it may be worth some consideration.

 

[dbarufaldi]

i-Zapp, two points that I hope help.

1) I was always told the wave-by was to control traffic - avoid bunching up riders and the long trains that form. This is not the sole function of the CR, but I was told this was the main reason behind the wave-by. I am sure there are other benefits, but my understanding is that wave-by is primarily traffic control.

2) When I first ran with N2's predecessor, I had been running with other track orgs, and thought the wave-by thing was ridiculous. My thinking, as I remember it was "I can pass at will at the same track with other orgs, but need permission from some dude in an orange shirt?? WTF??" Since I was a stranger in a strange land, I decided to abide by the rule, and see how it went. Worst case, I thought, I would pit in and go back out when the track cleared. What I found was that it was an adjustment...I needed to assert my presence a bit more with some CR's, but also found that I learned something from hanging behind a CR who decided instead of a wave-by, to wick it up to a "stretch pace" for me.

In the end, I think I wound up in about the same place as the organizers of N2 did...it's not a perfect solution, but it has advantages, and they seem to outweigh the disadvantages for the greater good/masses.

So my question to you is this: How many days have you run in N2's I group?

Dan B


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Pseudolus]

Since I was a stranger in a strange land, I decided to abide by the rule, and see how it went. Worst case, I thought, I would pit in and go back out when the track cleared.

it's not a perfect solution, but it has advantages, and they seem to outweigh the disadvantages for the greater good/masses.

Dan B, you are too logical to be participating! Absolutely brilliantly stated.

I zapp. Let's compromise. Instead of trying to change Everyone's stance, why not just get your bump? Problem solved then right?

 

[542]

i-Zapp,
It appears your concern is with the origins of the wave by rule, and to better understand it's purpose, and how it addresses safety. Let me try and answer you directly.

Two of the more difficult aspects for new riders to become acclimated to when riding on the race track are situational awareness, and looking far enough ahead to judge the closing speed of a rider in front. The wave by rule is in place specifically to address these issues. It allows a CR to properly match closing speed, and to manage traffic in a way that prevents pile ups when approaching a slower group of riders. It is only used to target a specific person when their riding appears to be on the limit or erratic. In those instances it it used to slow the rider down and prevent an unsafe condition.

Typically, the rule should not greatly impede your riding. The CR's should see you coming and allow you to pass provided there is not a slower group or multiple people directly in front of them. If there is a slower group, you would have had to slow down anyway and the CR is just making sure you didn't misjudge closing speed. They should allow you to pass on the exit of the corner and resume your lap unimpeded.

If you feel you are being held up by a CR, try to look ahead and understand why. Is it possible there was a slower group of riders in front of him?

On the other hand, the situation you experienced with a CR not looking back for 4 laps is completely unacceptable. Please bring those issues to the director the day of the event so it can be properly addressed. CR's should be looking back nearly every turn.

As Rob stated, it is a rule that comes up quite often. We may revise it in the future, but in most circumstances I think we all feel it's benefits outweigh the alternatives. In either case, this is a good discussion.

 

[raylee]

I've had to sit behind a CR for 2 laps at lightning once and got frustrated so I can feel your pain. However, I did bring it up (or rather, started throwing a shit fit around the paddock area in a fit of rage and beat up some randomly passing dog) after pitting in and the issue was very quickly resolved. In fact, I had a control rider come up on me the following session and more or less "escorted" me at an awesome pace for several laps. So basically, they don't really take offense if you call them out (unless you flip them the bird going down the straight because their sv650 tops out at 85 mph ).

To directly address your issue, I think the wave by might also be partially of benefit for the safety of the CRs. Having an orange shirt, reflective vest, or whatever the CR/Coaches wear kind of makes them a target for every maverick out there trying to make an impression on the "authority figures". I know some of the Nesba CRs have run as coaches with other organizations and have had close calls (one CR I know has actually been rear-ended aka ass-packed while coaching). Personally, I don't mind this courtesy as they are spending their resources to put-put around the track and help those who need it. I ride with two other organizations that don't require a wave-by and personally, I don't have a preference either way.

 

[R1Baby]

Wonder If I-Zapp and Blue Ninja are related.

 

[prplppleatr239]

I've had to sit behind a CR for 2 laps at lightning once and got frustrated so I can feel your pain. However, I did bring it up (or rather, started throwing a shit fit around the paddock area in a fit of rage and beat up some randomly passing dog) after pitting in and the issue was very quickly resolved.

You should have spared the dog and found a yellow generator to beat up on instead.
Can we make that a rule? Anybody frustrated with their on track experience is free to take it out, violently, on a generator in the pits. As long as it isn't a quiet Honda or Yamaha one, of course. That would solve two problems at once, maintaining cooler heads on the track, and maintaining peace and quiet in the pits!

 

[Otto Man]

Wonder If I-Zapp and Blue Ninja are related.

I don't think so. I think blueninja is still trying to figure out how to drill holes in the bed of the U haul pick up.

 

[i-Zapp]

Wonder If I-Zapp and Blue Ninja are related.

I don't know wtf that's supposed mean. I trust it's not meant to be derogatory.