NESBA Passing Rules

[JRA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40DMdNIsO5w&feature=context-chv

So the other thread brought an incident from earlier this year to mind. In the other thread it was pointed out by a NESBA member how erratic the passing in turns can be under more relaxed rules. Basically you just can't be certain what to expect.

A major function of our passing rules is to minimize the possibility of one rider taking out another rider. This can happen even with very experienced riders in our Advanced group but that's rare. A by-product of these rules is that when you master the art of passing while following the rules you have become a very good, and very fast rider.

With the varying skills of the riders in Beginner and Intermediate the idea is to err on the side of caution. I'm very sure that many of our riders can handle most situations safely, but what happens when you are suddenly out of your comfort zone? Bad things happen.

I'm posting this video to hopefully give everyone cause to think. This was from an intermediate group session and this rider makes an inside pass (the rider next to him is already leaning when he comes past), realizes he is too hot and too far inside, and locks the front. Plain and simple he just panicked. He isn't even leaning very far when he tucks the front. An advanced group rider could have made this pass with one hand off the bar while waving to a camera.

It's an example that our rules, when followed, prevent this kind of thing from happening 100% of the time. It's an example that things happen very quickly and that you can suddenly find yourself in a situation that you just aren't yet prepared to handle. If he had been passing on the outside per the rules, no one would have been affected but the first crasher. Probably he would have just gone wide and not even gone down.

The whole point of this thread is to show the reason for the rules, hopefully get people to better understand the reason, and maybe create some useful discussion. If you watch this video and still think we're too restrictive on inside passing, then you just don't get our system and you'll probably never get it until you are the guy getting taken out. Think about how you would feel after if you had been the guy on the outside in this video. What if you had been hurt. What if the injury had been serious. Would you be pissed?

The bottom line is that the rider on the white bike broke the rules, passed on the inside, and took out a another rider. He's very lucky neither were injured, but lots of expensive bike damage ensued. It's one thing to risk your own body and bike, it's totally another to risk the body and bike of a fellow rider.

It's been said that we are very strict in enforcing the rules. Are we in fact strict and practice what we preach at the rider's meeting? You bet your ass we are, and here's a good example of the reason. This sport is a lot of fun but it isn't a joke, you can be seriously hurt or worse.

We want everyone to have fun at a NESBA track day. We want everyone to become a better rider and make it all the way to our advanced group. But the most important thing that we want is for everyone to go home safe at the end of every day. Hopefully everyone will think about that. If you've ever been hurt or are one of us who have lost a friend I'm sure that you already have.

As an organization we'll do all that we can. We'll enforce our rules, we'll configure the tracks in the way we feel is absolutely the safest. With your help we've purchased airfence for Blackhawk, Jersey, and Road Atlanta, and we plan to continue to do more. At the end of the day though, it's up to you and your fellow riders to do your best to make smart decisions on the track.

 

[kubricky]

Well said.

1. Read the post.
2. Watch the video.
3. Re-read the post.
4. Watch the video again...

 

[stow]

:agree:

Great write-up John. I get riders complaining about the passing rules all of the time. Hopefully they see this and understand why the rules are in place. And as you clearly stated, following the rules and learning to pass within the rules will make you a better rider along with keeping other riders safe.

As someone who has been taken out and injured along with several thousand dollars in bike damage, I can say it it is not a pleasant experience for either rider.

 

[Jiggy]

I vote to Sticky this post. Great write up Mr. Allen.

 

[HondaGalToo]

Great write up. The more strict rules is one of the many reasons I like riding with NESBA. I feel it's safer, and that's most important to me.

 

[Blacksheep]

You've all done a great job when I've ridden with NESBA.

 

[Ghost Cracker]

stow;250399 wrote: :agree:

Great write-up John. I get riders complaining about the passing rules all of the time. Hopefully they see this and understand why the rules are in place. And as you clearly stated, following the rules and learning to pass within the rules will make you a better rider along with keeping other riders safe.

As someone who has been taken out and injured along with several thousand dollars in bike damage, I can say it it is not a pleasant experience for either rider.

and you really do become a faster rider without even thinking about it. In B group you have to pass with both bikes up and down. That means you have to line your passes up, plan them based on where you are on the track, where you are strong on the track and where you know you have enough room to make the pass clean, that is a lot of variables to consider at a high rate of speed when the difference in your speed and his may be 5 mph or less. Its not always as easy as hitting the throttle harder coming out of a corner either. Good rules in place i think and i hope they continue with the rules in place and enforcement of them. And you can still ride fast as hell even in B Group. Im a slow rider just so everyone knows.

 

[jesse v]

Reading this thread made me curious what the passing rules are for TrackAddix (since that will be the organization of my first track day next spring) and am happy to find out that have the same passing rule. Props.

 

[betarace]

jesse v;250918 wrote: Reading this thread made me curious what the passing rules are for TrackAddix (since that will be the organization of my first track day next spring) and am happy to find out that have the same passing rule. Props.

Strange place to ask about a competing org, why don't you ask on their forum? Why don't you just ride with NESBA ?!

 

[pearsonm]

JRA;250380 wrote: The whole point of this thread is to show the reason for the rules, hopefully get people to better understand the reason, and maybe create some useful discussion.

I probably will never learn as much about how to handle a bike as I have through NESBA. That said, I've always been frustrated with trying to learn how to pass. In my experience the instructions have been 'pass on the outside, don't get within six feet, you'll know you did it wrong when you get a slash-throat'.

So many times coming up to or within a corner slower riders will drift to the outside edge and pinch off others trying to properly get around. Of course then there's a drag race down the straight with a wide variance in equipment, experience and bravery. It's my opinion - and I'm only posting this because the offer has been made to discuss it - is that maybe in the I group a little more emphasis could be put on remembering that no matter who you are there's probably somebody on your outside trying to get around.

 

[Otto Man]

pearsonm;250922 wrote: It's my opinion - and I'm only posting this because the offer has been made to discuss it - is that maybe in the I group a little more emphasis could be put on remembering that no matter who you are there's probably somebody on your outside trying to get around.

I agree 100%. I think my first couple of track days, I was definitely guilty of going all the way to the outside, because you know, I was just going "so fast" in B group and all, and I needed all that room. :notsure:

Then, as I started to pick up the pace a little bit, I started getting annoyed by the guys in front of me going all the way over to the edge, as it made it much harder to get around them. And it hit me... I was doing that to other guys. I started leaving enough space that two bikes can get around the outside of me at the same time.

"Fast" is such an opinionated word. I thought I was hauling ass my second day at R.A., when I was in my usual turn in point at turn 6, only to have a CR pass on the most inside part of the track, that had to been of the worst, slowest lines possible, and he blew past me like I was standing still. Passed me like it was nothing. How can someone pass you so fast on one of the most non-optimal lines possible? I lost sight of him by the time I hit the apex in turn 7.

That truly reinforced what I already knew... I have a lot to work on.

 

[JRA]

Worrying about leaving room for somebody to pass on the outside is something a rider should not have to worry about. The fast line usually takes you to the edge on the exit. Generally speaking, and assuming you hit the apex, if you have the ability to leave four feet, or six feet or whatever on the exit, you should have been going faster through the middle of the turn because almost always the fast line is using all of the track.

We don't say to leave a specific amount of room, but when you pass you should leave plenty of space and not be making close passes; there is no point in not leaving a margin for safety at a track day.

The overtaking rider needs to assess the rider ahead and make a decision on how to make a pass. Under the intermediate group rules you have at least six ways that you legally pass the rider ahead. Getting pinched off should only be an issue on the outside at the exit of a turn. That leaves five (or more) opportunities to get around the rider.

1. On the brakes on either side while both bikes are straight up and down.
2. At the entrance of the turn on the outside.
3. In the Middle of the turn on the outside.
4. On the outside at the exit while the bike ahead is still leaning (where getting pinched off might happen)
5. On the inside at the exit once the bike ahead is straight up and down.
6. On the outside at the exit once the bike ahead is straight up and down

Figuring out which approach to take is part of the learning process. Learning how to make each approach work is where you develop the skill we have been talking about in this thread. Getting to the point where you can execute them all quickly and cleanly, and barely having to think about it is when you start becoming really good at working traffic.

 

[pearsonm]

It may be easier for me to draw what I'm trying to describe. Imagine the line below at about 7/10 speed, with traffic. You may have enough room on the outside as you pick your turn-in point and commit to a pass, but they drift wide and pinch you off. Assuming you do get whoa-ed up then you have no momentum left for an outside pass in the middle of the turn. As you try to get a holsehot on the imminent drag race you get pinched off again.

The only option I see - other than a pass through - is 'On the brakes on either side while both bikes are straight up and down', which leads to risk of the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_u47bPVeVc

I'm definitely not saying inside passes in the I group are the solution. I'm only suggesting that maybe a little rider awareness - how much real estate we really need for the speed we're going and where we're placing our bikes and when - may go a long way in solving some of the passing problems we're having.
:cheers:

 

[darth nater]

If you are riding that much better than the guy in front of you, you should be able to get around them before the exit of the turn. If you can't, you probably don't want to be passing on the outside. As far as inside passes, even in the A group where it is legal you rarely see it.

The key to passing someone in my opinion, and the most crucial thing I believe gets you from being a mid-I to an A rider, is knowing how to make the decision to pass. You have to be planning ahead and able to make a clear conscious decision to pass then follow through with execution. If you've hesitated on your decision, you should probably wait.

Cheers!

 

[stkr]

JRA;250925 wrote: Worrying about leaving room for somebody to pass on the outside is something a rider should not have to worry about. We don't say to leave a specific amount of room, but you should leave plenty and not be making close passes; there is no point in not leaving a margin for safety at a track day.

The overtaking rider needs to assess the rider ahead and make a decision on how to make a pass. Under the intermediate group rules you have at least six ways that you legally pass the rider ahead. Getting pinched off should only be an issue on the outside at the exit of a turn. That leaves five (or more) opportunities to get around the rider.

1. On the brakes on either side while both bikes are straight up and down.
2. At the entrance of the turn on the outside.
3. In the Middle of the turn on the outside.
4. On the outside at the exit while the bike ahead is still leaning (where getting pinched off might happen)
5. On the inside at the exit once the bike ahead is straight up and down.
6. On the outside at the exit once the bike ahead is straight up and down

Figuring out which approach to take is part of the learning process. Learning how to make each approach work is where you develop the skill we have been talking about in this thread. Getting to the point where you can execute them all quickly and cleanly, and barely having to think about it is when you start becoming really good at working traffic.

Well said John

When I was working my way through the I-group, an even into the A-group on my 80 HP GSXR-600, I used to rely on #5 a lot. The trick to #5 is to actually back off a bit from the rider you're trying to pass. Sounds backwards, huh?

As you're following that person that "always" runs wide, then has the power to win the drag race, then try this.

Coming into the turn, you slow a bit sooner than them, leaving a gap. As they start their turn in, you start yours just a bit later. This will cause you to apex a hair later, but this will put you on the inside line for the exit. Since you know that you can carry more corner speed than them (I hope this is true since you're catching them), you will start you drive smoothly before the apex, then as you reduce lean angle, you commit to the drive out as BOTH bikes are standing up.

If you timed it right, you'll be at your peak drive an beside them as your both vertical. They're probably still finishing their turn and not at WOT yet.

This gives the lower powered bikes an advantage on the drive, and a headstart on the race to the next braking zone, where hopefully, you can out brake them and make it stick.

As long as you're both vertical, then it's still within the passing rules for both B and I groups.


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[noobinacan]

One big issue I have noticed and bad habit that people take from B to I is 'target fixate' on the rider in front or group in front.
If you target fixate, then you ride in a train...if you ride the train, you're not going to make passes. cause you'll brake when the bike in front brakes and so on..

look past the bike in front.
IF you get passed: never look at who passed you, but continue looking at where you want to go and be.
If you want to pass, you obviously have to look at where you want to be.

Inside passing is more complex than people realize:
If getting passed, I'm hoping that whoever has passed me doesn't run me to the curb, you're unsighted as well and now depending on the person who just passed you.

if passing, have to make sure the person knows you're there, or they're either going to lean on you or clip your front tire.
Then after the pass, have to make sure not to run someone out to the curb.

 

[JRA]

stkr;250944 wrote: Well said John

When I was working my way through the I-group, an even into the A-group on my 80 HP GSXR-600, I used to rely on #5 a lot. The trick to #5 is to actually back off a bit from the rider you're trying to pass. Sounds backwards, huh?

As you're following that person that "always" runs wide, then has the power to win the drag race, then try this.

Coming into the turn, you slow a bit sooner than them, leaving a gap. As they start their turn in, you start yours just a bit later. This will cause you to apex a hair later, but this will put you on the inside line for the exit. Since you know that you can carry more corner speed than them (I hope this is true since you're catching them), you will start you drive smoothly before the apex, then as you reduce lean angle, you commit to the drive out as BOTH bikes are standing up.

If you timed it right, you'll be at your peak drive an beside them as your both vertical. They're probably still finishing their turn and not at WOT yet.

This gives the lower powered bikes an advantage on the drive, and a headstart on the race to the next braking zone, where hopefully, you can out brake them and make it stick.

As long as you're both vertical, then it's still within the passing rules for both B and I groups.


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That's a classic outside/inside pass, and knowing how do that easily is the difference between Intermediate group and Advanced group. You can also set up a rider for the inside/outside pass. It's basically the same idea only turning in earlier to set yourself up for an outside pass. I said there are about a half a dozen ways to pass, but as your skills progress you'll see there are a lot more.

The most important thing to understand here is what the line of the rider in front of you means, so you can adjust your own line to your maximum benefit. All of this is about observing the rider in front and the line he/she is on, judging where that is going to lead them, and then planning your pass accordingly. This might sound difficult, but as your get better at doing it you don't have to waste a lot of mental energy on it. You can quickly assess the rider ahead, plan a course of action, and even before completing the pass you are already assessing the next guy.

 

[Southerly]

I think what pearsonm is referring to is something I have experienced in B group. It has lead me to not try passing people on the brakes on the outside of the turn. I found a lot of people will always drift to the very outside edge of the track before starting to turn in. Usually I could see the bike in front was going to do this by watching how they approached the turn. If I am still on the gas and catching someone going into the turn, I usually make a point of staying to the inside as I go past, and then starting my turn from a more inside position after I am past. It means my entry line is less than optimal, but I by the time I do that I have been behind the person for a couple of turns so know that I can carry more speed than they can even from that position.

At my last track day I started making use of the inside pass as the bikes came upright coming out of the corner. The only problem I found with that method, is that I would be passed again half way down the straight, which would lead to passing on the brakes again. Having an under powered bike can be fun. Combine a bit less power with the NESBA rules, and it has lead to me learning how to plan a pass instead of just trying to do it.

I am expecting to go back to being passed rather than passing for the foreseeable future however. I have to make sure I hold my lines well.

 

[jaren warren]

stkr;250944 wrote: Well said John

When I was working my way through the I-group, an even into the A-group on my 80 HP GSXR-600, I used to rely on #5 a lot. The trick to #5 is to actually back off a bit from the rider you're trying to pass. Sounds backwards, huh?

As you're following that person that "always" runs wide, then has the power to win the drag race, then try this.

Coming into the turn, you slow a bit sooner than them, leaving a gap. As they start their turn in, you start yours just a bit later. This will cause you to apex a hair later, but this will put you on the inside line for the exit. Since you know that you can carry more corner speed than them (I hope this is true since you're catching them), you will start you drive smoothly before the apex, then as you reduce lean angle, you commit to the drive out as BOTH bikes are standing up.

If you timed it right, you'll be at your peak drive an beside them as your both vertical. They're probably still finishing their turn and not at WOT yet.

This gives the lower powered bikes an advantage on the drive, and a headstart on the race to the next braking zone, where hopefully, you can out brake them and make it stick.

As long as you're both vertical, then it's still within the passing rules for both B and I groups.


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I was doing this a couple of weekends ago with my 30HP rs125. Pure fun.

 

[stkr]

jaren warren;251072 wrote: I was doing this a couple of weekends ago with my 30HP rs125. Pure fun.

I've been passed by 125's and 250's many times in the turns, it's quite humbling.