Novice group 5/1/17 - did you go off track?
- Thread starter mdhokie
- Start date
mpusch
Micah
Pretty sure 1-10 are reserved for the N2 "hierarchy".
Sick
Johnny Gee
Lol, that would have been me. Came in to T1 a little fast. Would have been fine, but came up on another rider entering T1 who was going quite a bit slower. Might have been able to make it, but opted to just ride it out into the grass. No point in causing a potentially hazardous situation for another rider.
Also, if you're the rider I'm thinking, I definitely spotted you quite a few times that day. Your body position looked GREAT! Just need to add a little speed in the turns, when you're comfortable (if you don't mind my saying). I could probably send you a few clips as well, just have to dig through the vids I have.
Also, if you're the rider I'm thinking, I definitely spotted you quite a few times that day. Your body position looked GREAT! Just need to add a little speed in the turns, when you're comfortable (if you don't mind my saying). I could probably send you a few clips as well, just have to dig through the vids I have.
mdhokie
Member
I didn't realize about the slower rider until you mentioned it; he looked farther away from my perspective but I guess you were coming up on him fast. Good job taking it off the track gracefully; it looked like you stayed up at least as far as my camera tracked you; were you able to keep it upright and get it back in?
Here's a video clip link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1-ptMJ_vsVdWUFlSVBmOXhBaTA/view?usp=sharing
Thanks on the compliments. Yeah I am definitely starting from a place that feels safe, working on gradually increasing corner entry speed and harder braking. Last time out I focused on improving my speed through turn 7 and turn 12 which I felt slow through, so I'd be interested in knowing which other turns I seemed disproportionately slow relative to the rest of my lap so I can add some speed and see what happens. I'm one of those 1000c bikes that I'm sure everybody hates to be behind, slow in the corners and hard out of the exit. I'd be happy to see any videos you have with me in it; I don't have any follower videos.
Here's a video clip link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1-ptMJ_vsVdWUFlSVBmOXhBaTA/view?usp=sharing
Thanks on the compliments. Yeah I am definitely starting from a place that feels safe, working on gradually increasing corner entry speed and harder braking. Last time out I focused on improving my speed through turn 7 and turn 12 which I felt slow through, so I'd be interested in knowing which other turns I seemed disproportionately slow relative to the rest of my lap so I can add some speed and see what happens. I'm one of those 1000c bikes that I'm sure everybody hates to be behind, slow in the corners and hard out of the exit. I'd be happy to see any videos you have with me in it; I don't have any follower videos.
Post up the video mdhokie. We'd be glad to check it out. I would ask that you don't look to try and add speed. I can assure you that's a quick way to lead to a crash. I've seen so many guys try to add more speed in areas that they shouldn't be concerned with (driving harder out of a corner as an example). More often than not, you can cut a lot of time off your lap times by reducing the amount of coasting into a corner. Not going into the corner any hotter/faster, not getting on the brakes any harder - just speeding up that transition from going off throttle and applying the brakes for the upcoming corner.
jimmyz63
New Member
mdhokie...are you Matt? I pitted next to you and we talked toward the end of the day and you mentioned you followed me some on the track. White Cortech suit riding a black GSXR. Do you happen to have any video of you following me? I was working on body position and I'd like to see how bad it was.
Sick
Johnny Gee
@mdhokie Yea, I was able to keep the bike up. I just slowed down until I got to the grass, then got off the brakes and coasted. Kept nice and light on the bars. The corner worker at T1 directed me right back on track.
@Otto Man Definitely well said. I know I've saved tons of time by doing just that, trying to stop coasting so much. Either being on the throttle, or the brakes, but not coasting. I think that's one of the toughest things to learn and get better at on track. Certainly something that takes practice.
That being said, one of the most rewarding track days for me was the last season I was on track, about 3 seasons ago. Was up at NYST on my 02 gixxer. Was have fuel delivery problems where anything above half throttle, the bike would start to break up. That forced me to carry much more corner entry speed. I learned so much that weekend. Learned how to carry more corner speed and maintain that throughout the track. Guys would blow by me on the straight, then I'd end up passing them a couple turns later. They'd pass me again on the straight, and again I'd pass them in the turns. Tons of fun.
Also, one way I personally gauge if I can go faster in a corner, is if I'm using the whole track on exit. If I'm not very close to the outside of the track on exit, then I know I can go faster through the turn. At TBolt, T4 is a good example. Seems no matter how fast I go through that turn, I could still be going faster, as I'm usually only about half track or so on exit.
Anyway, I'm certainly no coach, and still a pretty slow rider, imo. Just get out there, have fun, and enjoy the ride!
I'll look through the vids I have today, then probably load up the ones with you in them on youtube. I'll PM you the link once they're up.
@Otto Man Definitely well said. I know I've saved tons of time by doing just that, trying to stop coasting so much. Either being on the throttle, or the brakes, but not coasting. I think that's one of the toughest things to learn and get better at on track. Certainly something that takes practice.
That being said, one of the most rewarding track days for me was the last season I was on track, about 3 seasons ago. Was up at NYST on my 02 gixxer. Was have fuel delivery problems where anything above half throttle, the bike would start to break up. That forced me to carry much more corner entry speed. I learned so much that weekend. Learned how to carry more corner speed and maintain that throughout the track. Guys would blow by me on the straight, then I'd end up passing them a couple turns later. They'd pass me again on the straight, and again I'd pass them in the turns. Tons of fun.
Also, one way I personally gauge if I can go faster in a corner, is if I'm using the whole track on exit. If I'm not very close to the outside of the track on exit, then I know I can go faster through the turn. At TBolt, T4 is a good example. Seems no matter how fast I go through that turn, I could still be going faster, as I'm usually only about half track or so on exit.
Anyway, I'm certainly no coach, and still a pretty slow rider, imo. Just get out there, have fun, and enjoy the ride!
I'll look through the vids I have today, then probably load up the ones with you in them on youtube. I'll PM you the link once they're up.
mdhokie
Member
@jimmyz63 -- I looked through my video and I do have a few clips following you. I will try to clip them out and post them up tonight.
@Otto Man -- good advice. I don't think I'm anywhere near pushing the limits though, so I'm not too worried about pushing a little, will just add speed incrementally. It's like @Sick said, it's turns where I slow up to where it feels safe, then once I get in the turn I realize I'm way slower than I need to be, and even WOT on exit, I'm not using up a lot of racetrack; I have to intentionally steer out to keep the race line. I think I have a particularly slow entry to turn 6 in that way; I slow down as much as I slow down for the turn 5 left-hander, even though it should be a much faster corner. I think I'm also slowing too much for turn 1. Stuff to work on! I will also work on not coasting as much...I do make a habit of coasting for a ways, just barely touching the brakes before hard braking, while I'm trying to judge my entry speed.
@Otto Man -- good advice. I don't think I'm anywhere near pushing the limits though, so I'm not too worried about pushing a little, will just add speed incrementally. It's like @Sick said, it's turns where I slow up to where it feels safe, then once I get in the turn I realize I'm way slower than I need to be, and even WOT on exit, I'm not using up a lot of racetrack; I have to intentionally steer out to keep the race line. I think I have a particularly slow entry to turn 6 in that way; I slow down as much as I slow down for the turn 5 left-hander, even though it should be a much faster corner. I think I'm also slowing too much for turn 1. Stuff to work on! I will also work on not coasting as much...I do make a habit of coasting for a ways, just barely touching the brakes before hard braking, while I'm trying to judge my entry speed.
mpusch
Micah
Sounds like an eyes thing. You might already know this, but looking further ahead helps you judge your speed better and might help prevent you from overslowing. So before you even hit your apex you're looking for corner exit.
Seems you already have a strong grasp on what you need to focus on for your next TD. As you're finding out, knowing what you need to work on, and actually doing it can be two vastly different things! One day when you're ripping in Advanced group you will look back at that video and tell yourself "I could have made that corner so easily". And you'd be right. But you definitely don't go from zero to hero over night in this sport. Taking the cautious route, not endangering you or another rider when you reach your "oh shit" level is by far the smartest choice you can make. Good on you for keeping it up right.
100% agree with Micah about looking up sooner. Going into T1 at T-bolt, I am already looking up the hill, way past the apex right as I tip the bike in. I try to relate it like drawing a straight line on a piece of paper - if you watch the pen the entire time, the line will never be as straight as it would be if you were staring at the stopping point and just "connected the dots" with the pen. If you get a chance to watch the different groups at a good viewing corner, you should take it. Speaking in general, you will see a lot of line adjustment in Novice group. By that I mean the bike lean angle changing as guys remove/add lean angle to hit their intended target (apex) and sometimes you can also hear the off/on throttle application. I relate this to watching the pen while trying to draw the straight line. Intermediate group will be better with more smoothness on corner entry, but you can still detect a good bit of coasting as they transition from the gas to the brakes. Advanced group will have the smooth bike tip in upon corner entry and minimal coasting.
It gets said all the time but it's the absolute truth and can't be over stated. If you work on being smooth on the controls, looking where you want to go by scanning ahead/looking back, and focus on hitting your apexes, you WILL drastically reduce your lap times. After my years on track with both TD's and racing, to this day, if I focus only on trying to "go faster" I never do. Ever. In fact sometimes the harder I try, the slower I go. I lose my focus - I lose focus on what's actually important and try to focus on the speed alone. The ONE thing EVERY one of my personal bests have in common is one thing: I was never concerned with my lap time. I was laser focused on hitting my apexes, driving hard out of the corners (using all track upon corner exit like you said) and stuff like that. Not once did I even look at my lap timer. That's saying a lot, because my lap timer doubles as my dash and it's the first thing I see when I look down. The only thing I pay remote attention to is the shift lights with my peripheral vision.
This. Look ahead - not down. I don't even look at the shift lights. I can hear pretty much well enough to know where my rpms are. Who cares what your speedo or lap timer says when you're riding? They are a reflection of what you did in the past - not what you're about to do. You can spend as much time as you want looking at that stuff later.
We all have stuff to work on that would enable us to go faster (safely). The one constant is that virtually none of those things involve us looking down at the gauges while we're riding.
Sick
Johnny Gee
Very well said guys, very well said. And Otto Man, excellent points for sure.
It is funny how often times, I'll 'feel' like I was going fast and did well, yet when I check my times in the paddock, I actually went slower. Then other times when I felt good on the track but not particularly quick, I ended up having faster times. Funny how that works.
And as you guys said, vision vision vision! Almost any time I have a rough day at the track, I realize I'm not looking far enough ahead. Once I correct that, the day becomes SO much easier. Good call fellas.
It is funny how often times, I'll 'feel' like I was going fast and did well, yet when I check my times in the paddock, I actually went slower. Then other times when I felt good on the track but not particularly quick, I ended up having faster times. Funny how that works.
And as you guys said, vision vision vision! Almost any time I have a rough day at the track, I realize I'm not looking far enough ahead. Once I correct that, the day becomes SO much easier. Good call fellas.
Sick
Johnny Gee
@mdhokie and @jimmyz63
I'll post what I've looked through so far, up on YouTube later today, and I'll tell you the times you're in the vids. I'm not too savvy with all the video editing stuff. Lol
Oh and MDHokie, totally thought you were someone else, until I started watching the vids. Still decent body position. As you're watching the vids, pay attention to your foot placement (you'll want your toes up on the pegs), and to your line. As stated above, nice and smooth is key, as is outside/inside/outside to a turn. Good stuff man.
I'll post what I've looked through so far, up on YouTube later today, and I'll tell you the times you're in the vids. I'm not too savvy with all the video editing stuff. Lol
Oh and MDHokie, totally thought you were someone else, until I started watching the vids. Still decent body position. As you're watching the vids, pay attention to your foot placement (you'll want your toes up on the pegs), and to your line. As stated above, nice and smooth is key, as is outside/inside/outside to a turn. Good stuff man.
You can practice every day on your drive to work. Envision your apex. Your turn in point. Force yourself to scan ahead and look back. Where do you want to put that car tire? There's the white line at the edge of the road and that one specific edge piece of pavement that's missing. Like a pot hole, just at the very edge of the pavement. How close can you get to it without driving off the road? I aim to put the center of the tread right at the edge of that pot hole - enough to know I hit the apex, but not too far that I put the tire off the road. Driving out of the curvy road, I imagine the steering wheel is my lean angle. Driving hard out of the apex, trading my lean angle (steering wheel) points for acceleration points. Feeling the car drift wide, as any car/bike will do when getting hard on the gas.
Or am I the only one that drives like I'm riding a bike? LOL
You will be amazed at how quickly it becomes habit. Instead of just going brain dead for as you make the same boring drive to work every day, work on things that will transition to the track. You'll be that much more refined and can then work on other things. Do you stab the brakes in your car? If you do, I would bet you do the same on your bike. Those are subconscious muscle habits. Train them to be better. Working on them while not at the track means there's that much more you can focus on once you're back at the track. Ride bicycles? Same deal. Smooth application of the brakes. Note I said smooth - not slow. Most definitely a difference. But taking things at half speed allows you to really hone those skills in, and you'll find the speed will come naturally without trying. And you'll crash a hell of a lot less in the process...
jimmyz63
New Member
Great! Appreciate it. I work on things at a comfortable pace in the early sessions and then try to add a little pace or work on something else as the day goes on. And I don't always know if things stuck or I reverted back to bad habits. I'm working on getting a rear mounted(facing forward) camera, just hasn't happened yet.
Sick
Johnny Gee
@Otto Man Really liking your analogies dude. Out of curiosity, what tracks do you typically ride? Would love to get some trackside advice from you in the future.
@jimmyz63 That's the spirit man! Work on things comfortably in the early sessions, then add pace later. Nice man. And from the vids, you body position and lines look good man, at least to me.
Also, I've mounted the camera in the rear, facing foward a few times. Awesome footage for sure, great to check your own body position.
@jimmyz63 That's the spirit man! Work on things comfortably in the early sessions, then add pace later. Nice man. And from the vids, you body position and lines look good man, at least to me.
Also, I've mounted the camera in the rear, facing foward a few times. Awesome footage for sure, great to check your own body position.
Mike:p
Don’t be a Hero, be consistent.
I like to mow like if riding a bike. That's a joke but not a joke. I mow grass for a living. To make the straightest lines on when you mow with a zero turn mower you MUST look all the way to the end of your line. This is especially true when mowing across a step hill, if you are concerned with where you are and not where you're going you end up sliding down the hill. The point I'm trying to make is that your eyes are more important than speed. Power is nothing without control.You can practice every day on your drive to work. Envision your apex. Your turn in point. Force yourself to scan ahead and look back. Where do you want to put that car tire? There's the white line at the edge of the road and that one specific edge piece of pavement that's missing. Like a pot hole, just at the very edge of the pavement. How close can you get to it without driving off the road? I aim to put the center of the tread right at the edge of that pot hole - enough to know I hit the apex, but not too far that I put the tire off the road. Driving out of the curvy road, I imagine the steering wheel is my lean angle. Driving hard out of the apex, trading my lean angle (steering wheel) points for acceleration points. Feeling the car drift wide, as any car/bike will do when getting hard on the gas.
Or am I the only one that drives like I'm riding a bike? LOL
You will be amazed at how quickly it becomes habit. Instead of just going brain dead for as you make the same boring drive to work every day, work on things that will transition to the track. You'll be that much more refined and can then work on other things. Do you stab the brakes in your car? If you do, I would bet you do the same on your bike. Those are subconscious muscle habits. Train them to be better. Working on them while not at the track means there's that much more you can focus on once you're back at the track. Ride bicycles? Same deal. Smooth application of the brakes. Note I said smooth - not slow. Most definitely a difference. But taking things at half speed allows you to really hone those skills in, and you'll find the speed will come naturally without trying. And you'll crash a hell of a lot less in the process...
jimmyz63
New Member
I need to show my wife some of these posts...practice while driving, mowing, etc. She thinks I'm a little nuts, but she'll see I'm pretty normal in this group.