the engine replacement blues

M

mnofpeace

New Member
OK, I've been doing this trackday thing since 99, but this is a first for me so i would love some advice from anyone who would offer it.

I put my beloved '01 YZF-R6 in the shop for an electrical problem, and they call me back saying that thier diagnostic checks have uncovered a severe engine problem. That if i run the engine for any more than the next 100 miles, it is sure to sieze. The fix; either an engine rebuild or a complete replacement (FYI...27,000 miles/4 yrs of trackdays + street miles). The prices given for the labor costs and parts let me know that the replacement is far cheaper than the rebuild, and that they have a solid engine ready to swap if i so choose, cost - $2500 parts & labor.

I wanted this bike to be my last sport bike, as my next bike purchase will surely be a sport-tourer (ie. Yam fjr or Kaw Concours 14).

What i would like to know is, what should i be asking about this replacement engine other than the obvious:

Milage?
valvetrain health?
transmission health?
previous maintanence?
stock or mods (jetting, mapping)?

what else do i need to ask before i get this work done?


Patrick L.
Ft. Washington Md.
#508 '01 Yam R-6
 
zangman

zangman

New Member
I am curious as to what type of electrical check can get them to find a severe engine issue? Did they have any covers off the engine to see inside and if so, what specifically did they see? IF it is to the point that you need a motor it would be cheaper to buy a used motor, IF you really like that bike and the way it rides. Would you be able to do the work yourself? For $2500 that better be a Formula Extreme type of build.
My $.02
 
Joe Vital

Joe Vital

Member
Did they tell you why it would seize? What does your old motor need? Did they tell you?


What is the history on the replacement engine?
How many miles does it have?
It it recently rebuilt? If so what was replaced?

$2500 is a lot of money for an engine swap. You could almost buy another track bike for this sum...
 
S

steve p

New Member
I agree with the above. I am not a mechanic however I don't know of a diagnostic check that will reveal a catastrophic motor failure in 100 miles. I am sure they are a reputable shop but it sounds like the bait and switch. You would be waaaaaaaaay ahead just buying a used motor and swapping it yourself, especially on an 01. My .02
 
barry38

barry38

Member
As a dealership service manager I would like to know how they came to this diagnosis. At a minimum I'd want to know what the compression is and if a leakdown test was done and what the results were. Realistically, I would not give you a quote to rebuild something if I haven't torn it down to give you an accurate parts list. A motor rebuild could cost $2500 depending on what parts are needed.

If it's not torn down I'd ask them the above questions. If they can't give you an immediate answer I'd pick it up and take it somewhere else. Also ask them specifically what it wrong with the motor. If the motor is bad it would probably be cheaper to find a used motor and install it. Get a manual, a motor swap isn't really that difficult.
 
M

mnofpeace

New Member
thanks guys.

to clerify...the $2500 figure is for both the engine and labor. they did tell me what they found to say that my current engine had severe issues, i just dont remember exactly. i am going past the shop today to get specifics for sure. they gave me until tuesday to make a decision. it was NOT solely an electrical check. they found what they found after fixing the electrical problem that i asked them to fix, heard a 'knock' while running it, and uncovered this issue.

i dont really have the opportunity to make this swap myself because i do not have a workspace to do it in. no garage, inlaws garage is more of a pig pen then a workspace, so other than general work in the street in front of my house and my driveway, i am kind of stuck. it does seem kind of steep, but my options are very limited. I did think about buying another bike for that price, looking around i have found classifieds for track-only bikes at that price, but i want/need both a street & track bike for commuting once spring breaks.

I am in surburban Md. just outside washington d.c., if anybody has a better option as far as shops to go to or a workspace to work with me to teach/help with this work, i would surely appreciate that and make it worth your wild.

I'll post what they say they found when i get back from the shop in an hour or two.

Patrick
Ft. Washington
 
C

Chad Dupree

New Member
If you really need a new motor, you would be better off buying a stock used one and then let another shop put it in for you. You can PM Handicapped Racer on this board, he has a shop in VA I think. From my experience, most race shops that I know down here in Ga charge around 400 bucks for a motor swap. 200 to take it out and 200 for the install. Hope this helps.


Chad Dupree
Wera EX# 37
 
M

mnofpeace

New Member
OK guys, the specifics...

problem - rod knocking. the rod is loosened and you can hear it hitting the cases. also the cylinder rattles around in the engine. it sounds like a horror movie IMHO. The only ways to fix, teardown and fix or engine swap.

replacement motor, used of course, '02 with 2500 miles, stock - $1500
(more details to come/mechanic who did work was off today. will speak to him on tuesday)
labor for swap - $700

opinions?
 
Poper

Poper

Member
Sorry about the engine problems, but it sounds like that little 4-banger gave you your money's worth (27,000 miles:wow:)! Good luck with the swap/fix, and I second the idea of the Kawi Con14 as a next bike; sick!
 
C

Chad Dupree

New Member
I don't know much about r6 motors but to just give you an idea on price, I bought an 07 GSXR 750 motor (stock) for $1000.00. I would check some race bbs, like the WERA classifieds or CCS. I'm sure you could find a 01/02 R6 stock motor for less than $1500. Anyway just my .02.


Chad Dupree
Wera Ex# 37
 
Handicapped Racer

Handicapped Racer

Member
mnofpeace;32172 wrote: OK guys, the specifics...

problem - rod knocking. the rod is loosened and you can hear it hitting the cases. also the cylinder rattles around in the engine. it sounds like a horror movie IMHO. The only ways to fix, teardown and fix or engine swap.

replacement motor, used of course, '02 with 2500 miles, stock - $1500
(more details to come/mechanic who did work was off today. will speak to him on tuesday)
labor for swap - $700

opinions?
Click to expand...
Sorry, If come off a little rude sometimes, "i'm working on that"

I call bullshyt, especially if they are telling you the rod is hitting against the case. The engine is mounted directly to the frame meaning "no Motor Mounts" so if the rods were hitting the case you'd feel it in the bars. If the rod were beating up the case, trust me when i say this, The day you took that bike in, an electrical problem would have been your 2nd concern, not the 1st.

Also cylinders rattling around in the case, is pretty vague and actually an incorrect term. To give you an idea, it's like being at the track and a guy comes up bragging that he has a tsxr 600 or a gsxr 650. You know he's lying his ass off and has no clue wtf he's talking about. Your cylinders are part of the engine block, they don't move, if anything you'd have a out of round cylinder or seized rings. Out of round cylinder/s would have caused a rattle that you would have noticed, definitely,noticed, if you, indeed, put 27k on the bike.

Seized ring would have produced white smoke, on the front straight and oil residue on the exhaust tip. Causing it burn to oil!


For the sake of sh*t and giggles,if that were the case, "not saying it isn't true" they should have been able to pinpoint the cylinder and tell you, Sir the #1-2-3-4 cylinder has a knock or rattle. On top of that, the noise a slapping piston would cause, most likely will be hidden by a rod knock, metal on metal sounds just travels throught the engine, depending on how far the bearing is out of round/clearance. kind of like breaking your hand, you know it's broken, but to what extent is unclear.

It take a good ear or a good set of chassis ears to locate the origins sometimes.

One thing i tell my customers over and over and over again, if feasible, fix what you have, you'll sleep better at night, you know it's yours, it's not stolen, you know the history, and you've know what's inside of it. Buying a used motor is pot luck, 50-50, 6 months down the road, your tranny goes out, you just spent 1500.00, now you're about to spend another 1000-1400 to fix this problem. My shop isn't far from Ft Washington, Were located off penn ave, Chad recommend me,"thanks Dude, hows the wifey" we'd be more than happy to look at it, and give you a honest opinion, you don't have to come to us, but i think it's a good idea to yank your bike from where it's at, the info you've provided so far doesn't sound competent.


7830 Penn western ct
upper Marlboro MD 20772
301-516-4155

Tue-Fri 11-7
sat 10-4
Ask for Terrance
 
barry38

barry38

Member
Handicapped Racer;32253 wrote: Sorry, If come off a little rude sometimes, "i'm working on that"

I call bullshyt, especially if they are telling you the rod is hitting against the case. The engine is mounted directly to the frame meaning "no Motor Mounts" so if the rods were hitting the case you'd feel it in the bars. If the rod were beating up the case, trust me when i say this, The day you took that bike in, an electrical problem would have been your 2nd concern, not the 1st.

Also cylinders rattling around in the case, is pretty vague and actually an incorrect term. To give you an idea, it's like being at the track and a guy comes up bragging that he has a tsxr 600 or a gsxr 650. You know he's lying his ass off and has no clue wtf he's talking about. Your cylinders are part of the engine block, they don't move, if anything you'd have a out of round cylinder or seized rings. Out of round cylinder/s would cause a rattle that you would have noticed, definitely, noticed if you indeed put 27k on the bike.

Seized ring would have produce white smoke, on the front straight and oil residue on the exhaust tip. Causing it burn oil!


For the sake of sh*t and giggles,if that were the case, "not saying it isn't true" they should have been able to pinpoint the cylinder and tell you, Sir the #1-2-3-4 cylinder has a knock or rattle. On top of that, the noise a slapping piston would cause, most likely will be hidden by a rod knock, metal on metal sounds just travels throught the engine, depending on how far the bearing is out of round/clearance. It take a good ear or a good set of chassis ears to locate the origins sometimes.
kind of like breaking your hand, you know it's broken, but to what extent is unclear.

One thing i tell my customers over and over and over again, if feasible, fix what you have, you'll sleep better at night, you know it's yours, it's not stolen, you know the history, and you've know what's inside of it. Buying a used motor is pot luck, 50-50, 6months down the road your tranny goes out, you just spent 1500.00, now you're about to spend another 1000-1400 to fix this problem. My shop isn't far from Ft Washington, Were located off penn ave, Chad recommend me,"thanks Dude, hows the wifey" we'd be more than happy to look at it, and give you a honest opinion, you don't have to come to us, but i think it's a good idea to yank your bike from where it's at, the info you've provided so far doesn't sound competent.


7830 Penn western ct
upper Marlboro MD 20772
301-516-4155

Tue-Fri 11-7
sat 10-4
Ask for Terrance
Click to expand...

I concur with the above.
 
C

Chad Dupree

New Member
Yep, I would go with Terrance. Good guy and he'll treat you honest and fair.

How's it going Terrance, wife's great, we just had a son in Sept.



Chad Dupree
Wera Ex# 37
 
M

mnofpeace

New Member
Terrance,

Thanks a bunch for all of that information. Both Chad and Matt H. sent me messages in private saying where your shop was off of Penn ave and to ask for you. And that is exactly what i was going to do. I had planned to come by Monday afternoon after work, but i see your shop hours have you closed on Monday. I surely will contact you on Tuesday to get your full opinion and to show you the shop notes that were passed to me from Clinton Cycles to get your opinion on it.

Patrick
Ft. Wash
 
Handicapped Racer

Handicapped Racer

Member
Chad Dupree;32312 wrote: Yep, I would go with Terrance. Good guy and he'll treat you honest and fair.

How's it going Terrance, wife's great, we just had a son in Sept.



Chad Dupree
Wera Ex# 37
Click to expand...
Things are going ok, can't believe it's almost racing season, where'd the time go.

Congrats on the new addition, tell your lovely wife i said hello, if she remembers me it's been so longs since I've seen her. Soon you'll be looking for some rw50's for the lil ones, and poppa D will be on the sideline cheering lol!

be safe Sir Chad !!!!!!!!!
 
pefrey

pefrey

Member
Two things in particular caught my attention:

1. They just happen to have an engine in stock.
2. They gave you a deadline to decide.
3. The drama. Engine failure in 100 miles?
4. I can't count.
 
JGardy_781

JGardy_781

Member
There's a how-to article on replacing an engine in Superbike magazine this month... It doesn't look all that hard. Get a second opinion on whether it's necessary, tho, from a race shop (Like T's place), especially since Barry (who's a service manager), thinks T's given you sound advice.
 
M

mnofpeace

New Member
thanks alot everyone.

I met with Terrance on Monday afternoon, we had a long, good talk about my situation, my bike, and what he thought was going on. In the end, i will be pulling my bike out of that dealership's shop-thank you very much, and allowing Terrance to take a look and tell me what is what.

His strongest evidence; how are they going to know i need a new engine if they havnt opened up the current one to tell me what is wrong with it first (cylinder 1, 2, 3, 4 has problem xyz...). All they really have done is said "you are clueless, you need a new engine NOW, we have one, pay US and we'll give you one. and dont ask questions. NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!"

So 1. i have found someone who wants to actually help me and not just make a buck, and number B. i have found a local shop where i can loyally give my business to and trust thier work.

Patrick
 
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