To bump or not to bump...

H

Hawaiijames

New Member
Just a question to the '"A" riders out there:
I was evaluated for a bump this weekend at NJMP by James, Chris and finally Dave. James said my times were good, Chris followed me for 6 laps and said nothing, and on the final session I asked Dave to evaluate me. He took off out of pit lane and passed 2 guys right away and I wasn't sure if I was supposed to follow, so I did and caught him after 3 turns. He made quite a few inside passes and a major stuffage of 2 riders in turn 1. I caught him everytime even though I know he wasn't running hard. I was already spoken to by Chris for passing between turns 1 and 2 and a few other places.
He said that between 1 and 2 is not a place to pass. I disagree especially if you are running much quicker into 1 and the rider in front misses the apex by 6 feet and runs wide. To the guy I passed and wanted to fight...fighting solves nothing, it only proves that you aren't man enough to shut up, ride better and accept the fact that there are more skilled riders out there and you can't beat them all up. I am not a dirty rider and don't have an ego that needs to be stroked. If you pass me, you're faster than me and maybe someday I'll be as quick as you, so way to go.
I am sure that my talking to may have had something to do with my not getting bumped. Dave said that I was really close but not quite fast enough, 1:35 is the slow end of the A group. I have friends in the "A" group that can't hold a 1:35 pace but Dave said the control riders can run 1:24-1:26 on T-Bolt. Hmmm... isn't that winning AMA times? He also said that I couldn't keep up with him on the front straight. I have a 750 and he's on a 600. I can close on any 600 on the straights, it's not me just my 30 extra HP. I really think that Dave didn't have any valid reasons and never did let me get around him to give
him an opportunity to watch my lines. I work really hard to use my reference points and hit every apex if possible. If he just wanted me to catch him, he should have said before blowing out of pit lane. I don't "need" to be in the A group but the I group as fairly slow and I feel the only way I can improve my lap times and passing skills is to run with faster guys and not have to make so many unsafe outside passes. There aren't a lot of good outside places to pass at T-Bolt but the short straights between turns is a great place to shoot past but that seems to irritate riders who are intimidated to have someone pass when they are mentally preparing for their turn in.
Anyone have some input?
 
slowpoke

slowpoke

New Member
out of curiousity, can you clarify which Chris? Was it an orange bike (Kubricky), red/white/blue w/ stars (Baker), or Black R6 (Pontrelli)?

Incidentally, I've ridden w/ Dave from 'B' group all the way to CR and I've never seen him stuff a single rider in B or I --- not once ever and I've turned more laps w/ Dave than any other NESBA rider. Even Dave's passes in A are absolutely clean so I'm having a difficult time understanding your post. I have also never heard Dave quote those laptimes to any rider.
 
G

gvstone

New Member
With risk of putting my foot in my mouth....

I'm a newbie so take this with a grain of salt if you wish....

I've learned in three track days that the most sure way of moving up is to become an asset to the sessions you ride and not a hinderance. If you are having trouble with anybody in your group then you most likely (in my humble opinion) have not been there long enough. Slower riders are part of it, there will always be slower riders. They should be used to learn from and with. When you get to where you are smooth enough and fast enough to not notice all the slower riders as anything other than other bikes then you are getting close to moving to a faster group.

Again just my view, your mileage may vary!!

Greg :)
 
Mikey75702

Mikey75702

Member
gvstone;152041 wrote: I'm a newbie so take this with a grain of salt if you wish....

I've learned in three track days that the most sure way of moving up is to become an asset to the sessions you ride and not a hinderance. If you are having trouble with anybody in your group then you most likely (in my humble opinion) have not been there long enough. Slower riders are part of it, there will always be slower riders. They should be used to learn from and with. When you get to where you are smooth enough and fast enough to not notice all the slower riders as anything other than other bikes then you are getting close to moving to a faster group.

Again just my view, your mileage may vary!!

Greg :)
Click to expand...
:agree:

I have been told 3 or 4 times now I am almost ready for I group. Just can't seem to get myself in the go slower to go faster mindset. Every time i try for the bump, I screw something up. Then I get frustrated and say screw it I'm just going to cruise behind the control rider to learn as much as possible, then they let me pass, and while i am relaxed just trying to cruise at pace I always go faster. I need to figure out how to have that mindset all the time, maybe this is your problem as well. It seems the more you think you are too fast the less ready you are to move up.
 
G

gvstone

New Member
Mike,

It's just like golf, when you slow down (mind wise) and do the proper steps just like you were taught, you zing one right down the fairway dead in the middle!!! Then you get excited on the next tee and try to kill it.... slice to the thicket!!!!

I think it's all the same.... My first day I got stuck behind a point and shoot sort of rider that I couldn't get around on the straight but was running all up on in the corners. Took about a lap to figure the right approach was to lag back a little going into the corner and come out 15 mph faster and breeze right by!!! Woo Hoo!! I've got a lot to learn but intend to do so at a comfortable rate for me!!

Greg
 
Mikey75702

Mikey75702

Member
gvstone;152050 wrote: Mike,

It's just like golf, when you slow down (mind wise) and do the proper steps just like you were taught, you zing one right down the fairway dead in the middle!!! Then you get excited on the next tee and try to kill it.... slice to the thicket!!!!

I think it's all the same.... My first day I got stuck behind a point and shoot sort of rider that I couldn't get around on the straight but was running all up on in the corners. Took about a lap to figure the right approach was to lag back a little going into the corner and come out 15 mph faster and breeze right by!!! Woo Hoo!! I've got a lot to learn but intend to do so at a comfortable rate for me!!

Greg
Click to expand...
That's how I feel, the golf scenario. And just to clarify my post wasn't towards you, but the op instead. I just quoted you to say I agreed. You seem to have a great Outlook on this sport when looking at your post above. But the op's post reminds me of this video........http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6967407/
 
Bubba Zanetti

Bubba Zanetti

Member
I'll add, since I will probabaly be in B-group forever, but with the observations of the group and my friends who have been bumped to I. Not a single one of them have had riders in B group want to come over and fight them.

Two glaring things are in the OP's post.

1. He ignored CR instructions in were to and were not to pass.
2. Fellow riders have voiced their displeasure in a rather bad way.

When you add these two points together it = Not ready for the next group. (Based upon D-Zum approved calculations).

Remember HawaiiJames., it's not just lap times. I know the CR's didn't give you a satifactory answer on why you didn't get the bump. Could be they didn't want to hear attitude so they just gave a short answer. Could be the CR was having a bad day. Could be alot of things.

But I bet if you sit back and really reflect on your queries and I'll bet the answers are already in front of you brother.

Peace,

BZ
 
davidcycle

davidcycle

New Member
don't worry about a bump. the only advantage you get from being in a group is you do have to pre register for your favrorite track. just go out and ride your ride have fun. most of the time, when your hitting your marks lap after lap someone else is watching. use the cr's for instructions that would make you a better rider not for can i move to the next group. if your doing it right your get your a sticker. don't get caught up in the politics.
good luck
 
Jeff H

Jeff H

Member
Outside passes are not that dangerous if done correctly. Sure if you screw it up the rider you are passing can run you out, but that is where experience in knowing you have enough of a speed difference to get by them at or before the apex comes in. And like Dutch used to say "if you are wondering if I should make this pass or not then you shouldn't" If you are ready for A you should be able to set someone up going into a corner and pass them cleanly on the exit.
 
stkr

stkr

New Member
There's some good advice/replies up above here. :cool:

What I would add is that simply based on the OP's first post, something isn't quite right. When I was in the I-group, I was getting frustrated trying to get my bump, and knew that my pace was right on track, but obviously, the CR's just weren't seeing what they wanted.

That missing part, was not the pace I was running on my older/slower bike, it was everything else they were looking at. Here's a few tips that might help you out.

1. Do NOT get in a rush to pass someone. This will lead to irrational decisions which may jeopordize the safety of yourself or the rider being passed. Take the time to follow the "slower" rider, and see if you can read a pattern to their riding. Do they ALWAYS leave room on the outside, or not? Are they predictable to the point where you can decide where it's SAFE to pass them?

2. Do NOT blindly follow a CR, and make passes just to keep up or catch them. The CR's may pass people, or have the need to go catch someone else that they've seen riding erratic, and they really don't have a way to let you know they're breaking off. Just ride your ride. It's their responsibility to drop back to pick you up, or they might hot-pit and catch you on the next lap.

3. Always remember that being smooth and consistent will gain more rewards than riding flat out, and on the verge of crashing. You may think you're in complete control, but the CR's might be seeing something that you aren't feeling in the bike's stability. A major concern might be body position. If your body position isn't great, and then you get bumped, this could lead to you running out of available lean angle as your pass goes up. If your braking isn't smoooooth, then this can cause handling issues as the pace goes up. Both of these can lead to a crash when you start trying to keep up at the higher A-pace. The CR's are looking out for your safety by not bumping you.

4. One thing you can do to practice your decision making, and your passing planning/execution is to line up at the back of staging. Let everyone else pit out, and then when you pit out, use this time to practice reading the other riders' lines and actions. Develope a plan on when/where you will pass them, and how you will do that safely without spooking a newer rider, or causing them to alter their line through a turn. Once you start learning how to read the other riders, and plan accordingly, then you'll find that slower traffic is really a non-issue.

5. Always remember that not everyone may be a comfortable with a close pass as you might be. Some people are still learning, and getting used to the speed differentials, and the proximity to other riders. Try to be considerate of others on the track that are learning, and you'll find that things will go a lot better.

6. When you have concerns/issues during a track day. Make sure to bring up those issues THAT day, at the track, with the CR Captain, or the region director. Give them the chance to address your concerns while the events are still fresh in everyone's mind. They are better able to handle this stuff while everyone is still at the track.

7. Relax, and work on being smooth/consistent. When you're ready, the bump will come without you even asking for it. The CR's are always watching, and if you're riding to the level that's worthy of a bump, then it will get noticed.

Good Luck :D
 
Vitamin_J

Vitamin_J

Member
The CR's mentioned by the OP are highly revered and help hundreds of riders each season. None is perfect but these are some of the club's standouts.

At the end of the day, its the same track for all of us in our respectived groups. I used my opportunity in I to learn as much as I could from as many as possible. Enjoy the day, it doesn't read like you had much fun out there.
 
fitz

fitz

New Member
Ah the Monday morning "bump" post followed by the 20+ post lecture.

I'm going to miss these when winter comes :(

fitz
 
Bubba Zanetti

Bubba Zanetti

Member
fitz;152078 wrote: Ah the Monday morning "bump" post followed by the 20+ post lecture.

I'm going to miss these when winter comes :(

fitz
Click to expand...
Winter= Good time for NESBA to pimp those "NESBA Sucks" shirts!

BZ
 
beevan217

beevan217

Member
Mikey75702;152054 wrote: That's how I feel, the golf scenario. And just to clarify my post wasn't towards you, but the op instead. I just quoted you to say I agreed. You seem to have a great Outlook on this sport when looking at your post above. But the op's post reminds me of this video........http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6967407/
Click to expand...
I love these videos! Always fits these kinds of posts. No disrespect to the OP but, if you were spoken to by a CR, then it was for a good reason. It seems as if you feel like you're being held up in "I" but, having difficulty making passes. If that is the case then, you've given yourself the answer you were looking for. If you cant make passes within the rules of your group, then you're not ready. If you are that much faster than the riders sharing the track with you, you'll be able to get around them. As stated earlier, it's not just about lap times. It's a package of lines, consistency, safely passing, decision making, pace, body position, smoothness etc. All of these things go into being bumped. If a CR went out with you & felt you weren't ready, try to find out what it is you're lacking in order to improve WHILE AT THE TRACK not posting here about it. Sometimes, what we think we are doing while on the bike isn't what is happening at all. That's why it's recommended to look at your pics if they are available. If you have a camera attached to your bike, if possible bring a laptop/netbook with you to watch the video of the session as soon as you come off the track. The pics & video don't lie.

By the way.... just because you pass someone doesn't necessarily mean you're faster. I've passed people that are faster than me only to get passed right back & POOF! they're gone LOL
Just try to be patient, do some reading, watch vids of the tracks you ride, research whatever. Just try not to feel as if you weren't given a fair deal by the CR's (how your post comes across in MY opinion).
 
ontheR6

ontheR6

New Member
Hawaiijames;152025 wrote: Just a question to the '"A" riders out there:
I was evaluated for a bump this weekend at NJMP by James, Chris and finally Dave. James said my times were good, Chris followed me for 6 laps and said nothing, and on the final session I asked Dave to evaluate me. He took off out of pit lane and passed 2 guys right away and I wasn't sure if I was supposed to follow, so I did and caught him after 3 turns. He made quite a few inside passes and a major stuffage of 2 riders in turn 1. I caught him everytime even though I know he wasn't running hard. I was already spoken to by Chris for passing between turns 1 and 2 and a few other places.
He said that between 1 and 2 is not a place to pass. I disagree especially if you are running much quicker into 1 and the rider in front misses the apex by 6 feet and runs wide. To the guy I passed and wanted to fight...fighting solves nothing, it only proves that you aren't man enough to shut up, ride better and accept the fact that there are more skilled riders out there and you can't beat them all up. I am not a dirty rider and don't have an ego that needs to be stroked. If you pass me, you're faster than me and maybe someday I'll be as quick as you, so way to go.
I am sure that my talking to may have had something to do with my not getting bumped. Dave said that I was really close but not quite fast enough, 1:35 is the slow end of the A group. I have friends in the "A" group that can't hold a 1:35 pace but Dave said the control riders can run 1:24-1:26 on T-Bolt. Hmmm... isn't that winning AMA times? He also said that I couldn't keep up with him on the front straight. I have a 750 and he's on a 600. I can close on any 600 on the straights, it's not me just my 30 extra HP. I really think that Dave didn't have any valid reasons and never did let me get around him to give
him an opportunity to watch my lines. I work really hard to use my reference points and hit every apex if possible. If he just wanted me to catch him, he should have said before blowing out of pit lane. I don't "need" to be in the A group but the I group as fairly slow and I feel the only way I can improve my lap times and passing skills is to run with faster guys and not have to make so many unsafe outside passes. There aren't a lot of good outside places to pass at T-Bolt but the short straights between turns is a great place to shoot past but that seems to irritate riders who are intimidated to have someone pass when they are mentally preparing for their turn in.
Anyone have some input?
Click to expand...
You started the post by wanting to ask a question, not sure what that question is?:notsure:

You mentioned that Dave did major stuffage, i highly doubt that!
What is ur definition of a stuff? an inside pass is not necessarily a stuff.

Keep in mind that when you get bumped it is done by at least 2 CRs and if one feels like u r unsafe and can't follow the rules, then u need to work on those things.

I'm not sure if other fellow A riders would feel comfortable riding with someone who executes questionable passes. Being talked to by CR Chris combined with a fellow rider wanting to get physical with u due to ur passes is painting the wrong picture James.

once u get bumped to A u will REALLY appreciate all these rules and the selection process, cause u'll know that everyone else running in ur group can be trusted with their riding ability and judgement.

From the collective experience of A riders the conclusion i've drawn is that u will more likely get the bump when u don't ask for it. IMO.

James, some of ur comments towards the end of ur post make you sound like the chap in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jj4ftAuFyg

Please remember that we do track days for fun, if you are disappointed u might want to consider racing, i know quite a few guys that race in order to get faster.
 
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