When does track temperature matter?

[Pseudolus]

So probably like all NESBAns in the Northeast, I'm getting the "almost end of season blues." Last year, being beginners, I think we stopped by end of August, because we feared the lack of traction cold weather might bring. We're definitely planning on hitting some warmer weather regions during what would be the Northeast's offseason but beyond that, I wanted to see what rules the more advanced riders have for when to stop riding track because of low weather temperatures. Do you have a magic degree number? And where is traction most affected in colder weather? Is it the drive out of the turn or the trail braking into it?

My problem is I can't really control my urge to push it that well so the idea of attending a track day but riding at 60-70% is probably not achievable. So I'm trying to figure out what temperature I can continue to ride in where I can keep pushing pretty hard.

Thanks in advance!

 

[barry38]

I've run :22's at Summit Main in March and October when temps didn't get out of the 30's. I've run :41's at VIR north in 40 degree weather. :40s at Barber in 30 degree weather. Instead of your tires being up to temp after one lap, it might take 3 or 4 laps in colder temps.

I rode the same regardless of temp, that is, be smooth, smooth, smooth.

 

[HondaGalToo]

What Barry said.

I find I'm more cautious in the cold, the same as I'd be in the wet. Tires need longer to warm up. Also, if the temps are cold, don't be lured into a false sense of security using warmers. The cold track surface can actually cool the tires down whilst waiting on the grid, so even with warmers, you'll need a couple of laps to bring them back up to temp.

Fall riding can be fun, but listen to your tires and be smooth. There are some times/conditions where you just have to dial it back to 78-80%, it's part of the learning experience. Patience!

 

[D-Zum]

This time of year sessions 3-5 are your best sessions to go out and have fun at a faster pace. These are when the sun's highest in the sky and radiating optimal heat (for the day) into the asphalt.

Consider also running your tires a pound or two lower than you normally run them in the Summer. This will achieve two things:

1) Your tire's contact patch with the road (the foot print) will be slightly larger with the small decrease in pressure

2) Your tire's carcass will flex more..and the flexing of the carcass is what generates heat.

Another point about tires...you may not want to run your tires for the same number of days that you do in the Summer. If you normally get 10 days out of a rear, consider swapping out for fresh tires after 6 or 7 days in the Fall instead. Tires with more rubber left on them hold more heat and grip more than tires that are closer to their useful end of life and have less rubber on the carcass.

Consult with your tire Brand's vendor. Colder riding temps may mean it's optimal to run a different compound this time of year for the conditions as well.

The morning first 2 sessions and the last 2 sessions of the afternoon are your sessions to go out and be smooth.

But the ultimate answer to your overall question is:

Track temperature ALWAYS matters. Tracks get slippery when it's too hot outside, too.

 

[Pseudolus]

HondaGalToo;289520 wrote: What Barry said.

There are some times/conditions where you just have to dial it back to 78-80%, it's part of the learning experience. Patience!
LOL! Thanks Judy, the closest I've come was one day that my suspension felt awful, my tires had strange grip and my brakes no longer had that initial bite. I was too inexperienced to know what the issue was, so I just gritted my teeth and rode through the day. Replaced the tires the next track day and fixed most of the issue except the braking feel. But it definitely was a learning experience to ride an entire day without feeling comfortable.

barry38;289506 wrote: Instead of your tires being up to temp after one lap, it might take 3 or 4 laps in colder temps.

I rode the same regardless of temp, that is, be smooth, smooth, smooth.

D-Zum;289525 wrote: This time of year sessions 3-5 are your best sessions to go out and have fun at a faster pace. These are when the sun's highest in the sky and radiating optimal heat (for the day) into the asphalt.

Consider also running your tires a pound or two lower than you normally run them in the Summer. This will achieve two things:

1) Your tire's contact patch with the road (the foot print) will be slightly larger with the small decrease in pressure

2) Your tire's carcass will flex more..and the flexing of the carcass is what generates heat.

Another point about tires...you may not want to run your tires for the same number of days that you do in the Summer. If you normally get 10 days out of a rear, consider swapping out for fresh tires after 6 or 7 days in the Fall instead. Tires with more rubber left on them hold more heat and grip more than tires that are closer to their useful end of life and have less rubber on the carcass.

Always amazed how many misassumptions I have about what the boundaries are for motorcycle performance.:adore:

I always thought the tires never get up to good temp in temps below 70-75 degrees so THANK YOU!!! :adore:

Great suggestions D-Zum and I'll definitely try the lower PSI.

 

[noobinacan]

Pseudolus;289503 wrote: So probably like all NESBAns in the Northeast, I'm getting the "almost end of season blues." Last year, being beginners, I think we stopped by end of August, because we feared the lack of traction cold weather might bring. We're definitely planning on hitting some warmer weather regions during what would be the Northeast's offseason but beyond that, I wanted to see what rules the more advanced riders have for when to stop riding track because of low weather temperatures. Do you have a magic degree number? And where is traction most affected in colder weather? Is it the drive out of the turn or the trail braking into it?

My problem is I can't really control my urge to push it that well so the idea of attending a track day but riding at 60-70% is probably not achievable. So I'm trying to figure out what temperature I can continue to ride in where I can keep pushing pretty hard.

Thanks in advance!

Probably the most ignored (yet important) aspect of this sport.
It matters all the time...
Depends on track surface, abmient temp, wind and moisture. direct sunlight etc etc.


Anytime you push in this sport, you won't get anywhere...stop pushing. the more you push for bump, lap times, pace..the less you will enjoy and more you will chase and will end up frustrated.

relax and enjoy..the more you relax and more you'll enjoy.

 

[Pseudolus]

noobinacan;289541 wrote:

Anytime you push in this sport, you won't get anywhere...stop pushing. the more you push for bump, lap times, pace..the less you will enjoy and more you will chase and will end up frustrated.

relax and enjoy..the more you relax and more you'll enjoy.

You know noobinacan, our definition of pushing may be different but that's actually the satisfaction I get from this sport. That you're constantly pushing yourself outside of your comfort level. I go into every turn wondering if I'll crash. Every single one. But I push through the doubt and the uncertainty. I'm not wreckless (most of the time but I am frequently at what I consider to be my edge. I think this sport inherently requires you to push it in some regards to get faster, but with proper underlying technique so you can successfully survive pushing it to new levels. One could debate that since you have the technique, you're not really "pushing it" but I can assure you my wondering in every turn if I'll go down makes me feel like I am indeed pushing it. The only exception is when you're following a certain Mid Atlantic director around trying to close on that @&$@&$!!!!

I can honestly tell you that I dread the day I'm bumped to A, because the speeds those cats ride at seem insane and it doesn't seem like a responsible father of two should be accepting the risk that comes with those speeds. At the same time, I definitely try to be faster, each and EVERY lap. I think it's just part of who I am. Back to my vodka tonics, and apologies for the rant.

 

[Otto Man]

Pseudolus;289548 wrote: You know noobinacan, our definition of pushing may be different but that's actually the satisfaction I get from this sport. That you're constantly pushing yourself outside of your comfort level. I go into every turn wondering if I'll crash. Every single one. But I push through the doubt and the uncertainty. I'm not wreckless (most of the time but I am frequently at what I consider to be my edge. I think this sport inherently requires you to push it in some regards to get faster, but with proper underlying technique so you can successfully survive pushing it to new levels. One could debate that since you have the technique, you're not really "pushing it" but I can assure you my wondering in every turn if I'll go down makes me feel like I am indeed pushing it. The only exception is when you're following a certain Mid Atlantic director around trying to close on that @&$@&$!!!!

I can honestly tell you that I dread the day I'm bumped to A, because the speeds those cats ride at seem insane and it doesn't seem like a responsible father of two should be accepting the risk that comes with those speeds. At the same time, I definitely try to be faster, each and EVERY lap. I think it's just part of who I am. Back to my vodka tonics, and apologies for the rant.

I don't mean to speak for Aman, but I got a feeling you might be slightly missing his point. I think what he's trying to say is NOT to go out there and push yourself way beyond your limits. That's the problem that MOST B and I group guys have. They bite off way more than they can chew - and it's usually shown by the erratic lines, missed shifts, on/off corner throttle, etc. It's not that any one of them aren't proficient at riding. It's that they are riding too far beyond their comfort zone, and they are forgetting the basics of riding from trying to go too fast, too soon. Have you ever sat in the paddock from sitting a session out, and try listening to what group is out on track? I rarely guess it wrong. You will hear at least half a dozen rev limiters, banging away every session in B group. Missed shifts, and if you're pitted near a corner, you will hear the on/off throttle in the corners. It's a lot better in I group, and extremely rare in A group. Are the A group riders any better at using a clutch or the throttle? No. It's just that they aren't pushing themselves far beyond their abilities like the other riders are.

Now, on the other hand, I sure as hell don't recommend just going out and riding like you're on a Sunday afternoon cruise. You should always work on ONE thing every session out - a deeper braking marker in soandso corner, better body positioning, etc etc. Just don't make extreme changes, or try to work on 50 different things. It will only lead to frustration.

I have had a LOT of fun watching I and B group guys out there in between sessions. I'm not established by any means, and certainly not a CR, so I just limit it to positive comments to guys I don't know. If they ask for feedback, I help where I can. MOST look at me like I'm insane when they ask what should they work on...and I tell them to slow down.

"What? Why?!"

Because you're rigid on the bike. Because I hear you go off/on/off/on the throttle...all in one corner. Because you can't hold your line. I'm far from being the next Rossi, but it doesn't take a genius to see you can't hold a line to save your life.

It's been said a million times on here, but needs to kept being enforced because most still don't believe it - Riding for a bump is going to accomplish nothing other than you winding up on your ass, and your bike sliding along with you.

I suppose goals always look easier after you've accomplished them, but for ME - eliminating coasting, and making clean passes were the biggest difference between I and A group. When I watch "I" group videos, the biggest thing I notice is coasting, and hesitating on making passes that any A grouper wouldn't think twice about making - and making it a clean pass at that.

Race schools will always help anyone, but there is still simply no replacement for SEAT TIME. And, SEAT TIME will get you comfortable with (slowly) eliminating coasting and enhancing passing abilities.

So get on out there and sign up for another TD...I did. :tothetrack:

 

[Blipstein]

Pseudolus;289548 wrote: You know noobinacan, our definition of pushing may be different but that's actually the satisfaction I get from this sport. That you're constantly pushing yourself outside of your comfort level. I go into every turn wondering if I'll crash. Every single one. But I push through the doubt and the uncertainty. I'm not wreckless (most of the time but I am frequently at what I consider to be my edge. I think this sport inherently requires you to push it in some regards to get faster, but with proper underlying technique so you can successfully survive pushing it to new levels. One could debate that since you have the technique, you're not really "pushing it" but I can assure you my wondering in every turn if I'll go down makes me feel like I am indeed pushing it. The only exception is when you're following a certain Mid Atlantic director around trying to close on that @&$@&$!!!!

I can honestly tell you that I dread the day I'm bumped to A, because the speeds those cats ride at seem insane and it doesn't seem like a responsible father of two should be accepting the risk that comes with those speeds. At the same time, I definitely try to be faster, each and EVERY lap. I think it's just part of who I am. Back to my vodka tonics, and apologies for the rant.

The A group is the safest group to ride in actually. You are surrounded by very experienced riders that have achieved their level of skill by not riding at their limit each and every turn wondering if they are going to crash. That mentality is what may be considered irresponsible...not riding at faster speeds.

Slow down to speed up. When you dial it back down to 85% and focus on things like body positioning, technique and proper lines...the speed comes free of charge. You will be getting around the racetrack faster without even realizing it. Give it a shot for a few sessions. You'll see . But most importantly you will not be putting yourself or anyone else in danger by being on the edge every turn.

 

[HondaGalToo]

I agree with what these three guys have written. You really shouldn't be feeling as though you're going to crash in every corner. Yes, you have to push a little bit out of your comfort zone sometimes. But not all the time, every corner. Take these guys' advice. I haven't seen you ride at all, so I have no idea if you're doing some of the things they've mentioned. But if you are riding over your head every single turn, feeling like you're going to crash every turn, you're not going to continue learning. You've come a long way. Work on technique, not speed. Take a school.

 

[Spork]

Blipstein;289586 wrote: The A group is the safest group to ride in actually. You are surrounded by very experienced riders that have achieved their level of skill by not riding at their limit each and every turn wondering if they are going to crash. That mentality is what may be considered irresponsible...not riding at faster speeds.

Once I was moved up to Advanced with Roger Lyle I realized the above statement to be true - My only goal with Nesba now Is A group - Its safer + I wanna avoid being lap traffic in WERA/CCS next year so I need to learn from ya'll faster Kats .

 

[Spork]

BTW - What do you all wear to ride in sub 60* weather ? Thats freaken cold @ 60mph+

 

[HondaGalToo]

Spork;289590 wrote: BTW - What do you all wear to ride in sub 60* weather ? Thats freaken cold @ 60mph+

Underarmour cold gear. Or thin style long underwear.

 

[Otto Man]

Spork;289589 wrote: Once I was moved up to Advanced with Roger Lyle I realized the above statement to be true - My only goal with Nesba now Is A group - Its safer + I wanna avoid being lap traffic in WERA/CCS next year so I need to learn from ya'll faster Kats .

You're going to be lap traffic regardless in WERA or CCS. Some fast ass dudes out there. Atmosphere is totally different from track days. Everyone will help each other out as much as possible in the pits getting bikes ready, but when the shield goes down, I'm going to take what is mine. No gentlemen courtesy passing in racing. And if you decide to be nice, or hesitate on whether you should make that pass or not, you already lost at least one position. It's a hoot. Do it! WERA is doing one final round at Summit in November. Throw a sweatshirt under your suit and give it a go!

 

[Pseudolus]

Otto Man;289570 wrote: Have you ever sat in the paddock from sitting a session out, and try listening to what group is out on track? I rarely guess it wrong. You will hear at least half a dozen rev limiters, banging away every session in B group. Missed shifts, and if you're pitted near a corner, you will hear the on/off throttle in the corners. It's a lot better in I group, and extremely rare in A group. Are the A group riders any better at using a clutch or the throttle? No. It's just that they aren't pushing themselves far beyond their abilities like the other riders are.
:
Great feedback Otto man! I've never even realized you could hear that difference. I only noticed the difference in Conga lines and how fast the A group guys go into turn 1 so I'll expand my observation skills to try and pick up on that. Thank you! I also know coasting and my lines are my issue (thanks Lenny) so I'm trying to focus on that as much as possible.

Blipstein;289586 wrote: The A group is the safest group to ride in actually. You are surrounded by very experienced riders that have achieved their level of skill by not riding at their limit each and every turn wondering if they are going to crash. That mentality is what may be considered irresponsible...not riding at faster speeds.

Slow down to speed up. When you dial it back down to 85% and focus on things like body positioning, technique and proper lines...the speed comes free of charge. You will be getting around the racetrack faster without even realizing it. Give it a shot for a few sessions. You'll see . But most importantly you will not be putting yourself or anyone else in danger by being on the edge every turn.

Thanks Blipstein. I believe everything you said so I'm not disagreeing with you. But what you said is an important distinction vs. some of the other responses. It's not that I think I'm going to crash every turn, it's that I'm not sure I won't. Most of that feeling comes from doing new things with a motorcycle (I probably have 3-4,000 miles of riding experience total) for the first time in my life (trail braking, touching a knee down, accelerating WOT). So to me, almost everything feels like an edge. But that's where I know you hit it on the head. That by the time you get to A, you don't feel that edge so much, and I do look forward to that! Just want to make it clear that I'm not a homicidal maniac plunging into every turn leaving it in God's hands. But I just don't know what motorcycles are exactly capable of (as recently as 2-3 months ago, I would not add lean angle and throttle, even in a kink to a straight) as a result of some of the rules I read in magazines. Combine all the things I read with all of the racing I watch where people seem to crash for no reason that I can tell and that creates alot of anxiety when I'm doing new things with the motorcycle. Thankfully NESBA's here to sort all of that info out. :adore:

 

[Spork]

Otto Man;289601 wrote: You're going to be lap traffic regardless in WERA or CCS. Some fast ass dudes out there. Atmosphere is totally different from track days. Everyone will help each other out as much as possible in the pits getting bikes ready, but when the shield goes down, I'm going to take what is mine. No gentlemen courtesy passing in racing. And if you decide to be nice, or hesitate on whether you should make that pass or not, you already lost at least one position. It's a hoot. Do it! WERA is doing one final round at Summit in November. Throw a sweatshirt under your suit and give it a go!

I'm ready , the coaches in my Race class swarmed the shit outa me through the corners me to teach me about getting passed , and to ready for anyting.
I'm ready to take gloves of believe me .....
If it stays relatively warm in Nov ,I'll do the WERA event at summit .

 

[Blipstein]

Pseudolus;289611 wrote:


Thanks Blipstein. I believe everything you said so I'm not disagreeing with you. But what you said is an important distinction vs. some of the other responses. It's not that I think I'm going to crash every turn, it's that I'm not sure I won't. Most of that feeling comes from doing new things with a motorcycle (I probably have 3-4,000 miles of riding experience total) for the first time in my life (trail braking, touching a knee down, accelerating WOT). So to me, almost everything feels like an edge. But that's where I know you hit it on the head. That by the time you get to A, you don't feel that edge so much, and I do look forward to that! Just want to make it clear that I'm not a homicidal maniac plunging into every turn leaving it in God's hands. But I just don't know what motorcycles are exactly capable of (as recently as 2-3 months ago, I would not add lean angle and throttle, even in a kink to a straight) as a result of some of the rules I read in magazines. Combine all the things I read with all of the racing I watch where people seem to crash for no reason that I can tell and that creates alot of anxiety when I'm doing new things with the motorcycle. Thankfully NESBA's here to sort all of that info out. :adore:

I'm glad to hear you aren't a homicidal maniac . It sounds like you are at a critical stage in your development. All of the things you are experiencing are normal. It's all about how you handle those sensations. 90% of motorcycle riding is between the ears. Your mentality when you are on the track is critical to your development. Now is the time to decide if you want to be a rider that is meticulous about watching, listening, learning and applying. In 2 years from now you can either be the guy who crashed out too many times trying to be faster on every lap and can't take the risk of riding anymore....or the guy in the A group who is riding safely, cleanly, predictably and FAST!

Have fun out there

 

[Pseudolus]

In 2 years from now you can either be the guy who crashed out too many times trying to be faster on every lap and can't take the risk of riding anymore....or the guy in the A group who is riding safely, cleanly, predictably and FAST!

QUOTE]

That's a very interesting statement. If you looked at my brother and I, I think we would agree he is clearly on track to be the safe, predictable rider, while my fate is up in the air. That's evidenced by how many times I've gone off track at very high speeds vs. him. Thanks for that. Very very thought provoking as I do want to be around this sport for a very long time!

 

[HondaGalToo]

Pseudolus;289629 wrote:

In 2 years from now you can either be the guy who crashed out too many times trying to be faster on every lap and can't take the risk of riding anymore....or the guy in the A group who is riding safely, cleanly, predictably and FAST

!

QUOTE]

That's a very interesting statement. If you looked at my brother and I, I think we would agree he is clearly on track to be the safe, predictable rider, while my fate is up in the air. That's evidenced by how many times I've gone off track at very high speeds vs. him. Thanks for that. Very very thought provoking as I do want to be around this sport for a very long time!

You run off a lot? I equate those as crashes but without the damage and pain (if you run off a lot and haven't crashed, you've just been damned lucky)....just sayin'
Glad we got you thinking!

 

[motorkas]

Hey guys (and gals; I'm going to jump in (after all I've had to live with him my whole life and get a front row seat to him "pushing it" with almost everything he does).

As he's mentioned, he only has about 3000-4000 total miles on a bike so everything is new to him, but honestly, if he had 400,000 miles, he'd still be doing the same thing. I've seen sparks come out from under his skis, him hobbling around from doing 8 hours straight of martial arts (and then go back the next day, and the next day) and I won't even bring up what lunacy he conjured up when roller blades first came out. He's a "pusher". . .I, not so much. I appreciate all the council for him to "back off" (which honestly, I do as well, and just as honestly is one of the reasons I tried to talk him out of getting a bike in the first place) but what I've had 38 + years to come to grips with is the fact that's just who he is.

What makes it easier for me to come to grips with (and one of the reasons I would never hesitate to be side by side with him in a turn on a track - and believe me, blood relations or not, I won't go near you on a track if I don't trust you) is what I think all of you are getting at - when you push it, you're on the edge, when most people are on the edge, if something goes wrong, you panic, most of the time when you panic, you make a bad decision, and in this sport, more often than not, that's followed by a different type of ride than what you were expecting (I think that's the main reason for crashes in B group - people panic, make rash decisions and do too much of everything). As hard as it is to explain - he doesn't panic when he's on the edge which is why he's more comfortable than most going there. Unfortunately (for me:banghead he's just wired to push his limitations. Surprisingly (and I think this is where it's different between him and most) is that he's very calm and relaxed on the edge. He's not tense, he doesn't panic, he just pushes his limits of comfort. . .constantly. Our mother likes to say "growth is always uncomfortable when your going through it" and he's very comfortable with the uncomfortable feeling of pushing his boundaries. . .

In "B" group, you can be on the "edge" at 50mph in a turn, in I group 70mph in the same turn and in A group 90-100mph. . .the edge is relative. His great advantage (and why he's progressed so quickly) is that the edge causes him fear to know that he's pushing it, but his fear doesn't cause him to panic so even when he's there, he's still smooth with what he does. Hard to explain, but believe me, it's served him well (in this as well as other endeavors).

I'm not shy about saying this but he first started riding motorcycles two years ago, I started 15 years ago. His bike is totally stock, I'm fully modified. . .Last year, I was 5 seconds faster than him and this year he's been consistently 2 seconds faster than me (no matter the track). He doesn't chase bumps, he doesn't chase time. . .he just waits to feel comfortable, and then looks for the next challenge. Sometimes I’m envious of this ability - most of the times I’m not. . .

Finally, a last piece of advice to you bro - STOP POSTING AFTER VODKA TONICS. . .

Here’s him at T-bolt last month - the first eight minutes we’re behind Anthony our friend and pit - mate and we were go-proing him for reference and educational purposes - once lunch caught up with him we made the pass at 8:30 and had free track for the next 2 minutes - at around 10:30 we catch up with traffic - he gets thought them quicker than I and that was all he needed - after that he checked out. . .This isn’t to say that’s he’s “good” - just that he “ain’t bad” or a “homicidal lunatic”. . .

I'm filming - I think it shows all sides to him - dialing it back to help a friend, methodically ratcheting it up with open track - going balls out at the end (can't see it because he checked out).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP2r79Vmhoo

PS - Judy thank you for that!!!!!!!!!!- he does like to go off roading occasionally - but in his defense both of the high speed ones were him being pushed off and one of those times it was somebody doing it on purpose so he wouldn't pass them in the kink at VIR at CSS. . .that was his second time being at the track and his first time off roading and it was at 130mph and he saved it. . .:wow: - needless to say - you never want to have to see that first hand as I was right behind him when he went off. . .).

And thank you to everyone - one of the things we LOVE about this organization is the dedication to helping us and giving us the tools to be safer, faster and better. It cracks me up that my brother failed to see the irony that while he is a "pusher" - this all started by him being afraid to run tires at 70 degrees. . .