When Should I switch from Q2 to Race Tires (D211GPA or better)?

Discussion in 'Tire Information Center (archive)' started by DUNLOP-RTS, May 12, 2011.

  1. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    When Should I switch from Q2 to Race Tires (D211GPA or better)?

    You must evaluate what it is you are trying to accomplish with the tire to fully answer this question.

    Do you want the best lap time?

    Do you want the tire to last the longest?

    Both are valid goals, and the choice should be simple, but... Riders often get confused by the urban myths: That tell us we must have a certain lap time or go at a certain pace to get heat into the tire or you will not be able to truly use a race tire. That you wont be able to get heat into the race tire. That you will fall down because you can't get the race tire up to temp. These are myths and exceedingly over emphasized.

    The reality is, you can use race tires at ANY pace. Even a slower rider can use a race tire without issue.

    Will that slower rider get as much heat in the tire as super fast rider? NO.
    Does he need to get heat in the tire to ride at his slower pace? NO.
    Does the tire still grip when not fully up to temperature? YES, certainly it does. Maybe not as good as fully hot, but it still grips well.

    If you took a rider with a race tire and had him go 5 seconds off the class record, the tire would be well up to temperature and there would be no problems.

    Now have that rider go 6 seconds slower, now 7, then 8, 9 ,10, 11... 15, 16, 17, 18... Now at what point do you think the tire would not grip and he would fall down? ANSWER, NEVER. You could do this in reverse, starting at 60 sec off the pace then going faster without issue.

    As the pace gets slower, the temperature get less, and so does the DEMAND FOR TRACTION. Certainly the rider at 5 sec is demanding much more traction than the rider at 15 sec.

    So where do we get into trouble? Why do we hear all about having to get heat into the tire or we fall down. It comes from the "demand for traction" conflicting with "available traction". Or simply put, "The rider went faster than the tire had traction". its really that simple.

    Example: Rider A goes at 5 sec off the pace, no problems. We know he has good heat in the tire. His buddy, rider B, goes at 12 sec off the pace. Less heat in the tire. The next session rider B then attempts, on his first lap, to go as fast as rider A does, and falls down. He blames the "race tire" for not having enough heat in it. He then tells this story over and over, with emphasis on that "Cold Tire". Now riders are all worked up about race tires and getting heat into them.

    If a rider progressively increases his lap times, the heat of the tire will increase right along with it, and with that will increase the traction.

    So the answer to this question is you can change at any time to race tires. You can start on race tires on your very first track day.

    FACT: If you had 2 identical bikes with similar caliber riders, one on Q2 and the other on D211GPA, the rider with the D211GPA would have equal or better grip, at every temperature
    , from room temperature all the way up to race pace. With the Q2 increasing in performance moderately, and the D211GPA increasing substantially in performance.

    Riders must use common sense when going out to go fast. Slamming into turn one at full pace with cold tires is not using common sense. But doing so and then claiming it was the tires fault is simply not accepting responsibility.
     
  2. Mikey75702

    Mikey75702 Member

    Good info.... thank you.
     
  3. angel

    angel New Member

    I knew it! The whole "not fast enough pace for a race tire" didnt make sense to me. This does. 211s it is for me.
     
  4. dbarufaldi

    dbarufaldi Member

    Can you provide any color on durability for track use between the Q2 and the 211? As a benchmark, I got 9 days out of my Q2 rear at moderate-upper Intermediate pace at 3 different tracks, no warmers.

    Dan B
     
  5. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    9 days is a lot.

    as you pick up your pace you will use tires faster.

    The best benchmark is YOUR consumption rate. That is the best way to relate the usage. Its all relative to you and your setup and riding style and conditions.
     
  6. dbarufaldi

    dbarufaldi Member

    While I agree in principle that increased pace means increased wear, I'm running faster than ever before (for me) and got more days out of my last set of tires than ever before. Go figure.

    My question was, as an average ratio, what is the difference in wear between the two? Should I expect a 211 to last about 1/2 as long as a Q2? 10% as long? I understand the best benchmark is my consumption, but since that is not available, I'm asking about your experience with others who have made the switch. If you don't track that data, and don't have a seat-of-the-pants feel for it, I understand.

    Dan B
     
  7. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    Your question is valid, however whenever I give an estimate the rider goes faster and uses the tire at a faster rate, thus its hard to give a ratio.

    I can say that I commonly see riders get 4-6 days out of a set D211GPA. But that is dependent on many things. Some tracks wear tires much faster than others. Barber you will get 2x as many laps as you do with Jersey or Jennings. Also your setup can shred a tire or make it look smooth and last long. Your riding style can also attribute to the wear factor.

    There is just to many variables to give you a solid answer.

    If you are getting 9 days out of a Q2 now, assuming nothing changes (lap times, track, setup, riding style, weather), you should get 4-6 days out of a D211GPA. but remember you will most likely be going faster laps times with your increasing of ability and more confidence in your tires. thus 4-6 may turn into 3-4 days.

    Just give it a go and keep an eye on things.

    Have a stock shock will also contribute to heavy tire wear.

    Good luck, have fun on the track. :)
     
  8. dbarufaldi

    dbarufaldi Member

    Understood - your response is exactly what I was looking for, and I understand it's just a best guess...That ratio is actually a little better than I thought it might be, but as you say, it could be less.

    Frankly, I'll be surprised if I ever get 9 days out of a Q2 again. I think it had a lot to do with my having done it on so many different tracks - didn't wear any one part of the tire significantly. Also, since it was season opener tire, I was probably taking it very easy for the first few days.

    Thanks again for all the great info, and for being a great resource for the list.

    Dan B
     
  9. rusty848

    rusty848 New Member

    Q2 is street tire ,different compound then 211.street tires heat up faster then race tires.if you not going fast enough you never put enough heat in race tires and they are try slide in corners.this is importand specialy on cold days.so if you beginner or low intermediate you will be better on Q2.
     
  10. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    Thanks for jumping in.

    However you are wrongly emphasizing the heat up of the street tire and race tire. that is an urban legend and incorrect information.

    Please review my first post of this threat for the correct information on the subject.
     
  11. cooker1

    cooker1 New Member

    What about the weight of the bike as to how much heat you can get into them ? Rode the Q2s rite out from underneath my SV !!!!
     
  12. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    Lighter bike will generally mean less heat.

    If you are overriding the Q2, then time to step up to a better race tire. Don't blame it on the heat up.
     
  13. Hotbrakes

    Hotbrakes New Member

    Sounds to me like Dunlop is trying to dump off a load of overstocked 211 GPA's likely to cover the numerous contingency payouts they have encountered thanks to the 211 GP's being 10 times better than anything else on the market.

    All kidding aside, it's about using the right tool for the job. And the fresher the better.
     
  14. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    You are entitled to your opinion.

    But you are incorrect about "Dump off a load of overstocked D211 GPA's" That is farthest from the reality of the situation.

    Dunlop is manufacturing D211GPA's currently. Why manufacture a tire only to dump it?

    Points that need to be considered:

    * Riders constantly point out how expensive this sport is. Dunlop can manufacture tires in the USA at much lower cost than importing them.

    * The USA product has come a long way, with the gap between UK and USA product getting ever slimmer and in some cases the USA product exceeding the UK. Please note that just this last weekend at Putnam Park, the New D211GPA front 5436 compound broke the 600cc track record, not just once, but 2 times in 1 race. First by Jake Lewis and then by Ricardo Valdez.

    * Made in USA = more Americans with work.

    * Made in the USA facility = the ability to make changes and updates faster, and meet the demands of racers quicker, without having to place orders that take many months to fill overseas.

    You can bash all you want, but at the end of the day Dunlop is working VERY hard to develop better and better product at a lower cost, so racers and track day riders spend less money and receive contingency.

    You can support that program or not. Its your call.
     
  15. Hotbrakes

    Hotbrakes New Member

    No bashing here, I have used and been very impressed with the performance of both versions of 211's and the Q2's. Even at an advanced pace on a liter bike the Q2's never slipped or felt sketchy. The GPA's inspired insane lean angles and the GP's have worn like iron without losing performance or "falling off". After using most every brand of tire on the track, I am proud to represent Dunlop. The contingency payouts are a by product of success!
     
  16. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    Many thanks for your rave reviews. I am glad to help you guys do well on the track.

    Sorry if I misunderstood your previous post.
     
  17. machdw69

    machdw69 New Member

    I had 2 sets of the 209's that I used without warmers and they were cold tearing wear the 2 compounds meet at the L and R shoulders of the tires. This seemed to go away slightly as I got faster and put more heat in the tires. Can anyone shed any light on what was actually happening?
     
  18. nodakgus

    nodakgus Member

    Can you address the use of warmers in the light of the above? Are warmers required for running the D211?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  19. DUNLOP-RTS

    DUNLOP-RTS New Member

    There is no requirement that you must use warmers on any tire. All the warmers do is put heat in the tire first. Thus you don't have the need to take 2 warmup laps to get heat in your tire.

    Using warmers or taking 2 warmup laps accomplishes the same thing. However with the warmers you can get going right away and don't waste the first 2 laps warming tires up. its trade off.

    If you are using D211GP or D211GPA there is no requirement to using warmers. However if you are not using warmers you need to use your head and get heat in the tires on the first couple laps before really getting going.
     
  20. JBGB3

    JBGB3 New Member

    Steve, (or anyone else with knowledge on the subject),
    Hoping this isn't a dead thread, but to combine two of the above issues: running a light bike and trying to get heat into the tires. Is it possible to be unable to maintain the needed heat in a pair of tires (Q2s) regardless of your pace, because your bike is light? Whether warmers are used or not? I don't want to waste the money on warmers if I can't keep the heat in there!

    Catch-22: "to keep the heat in you need to push harder" but "in order to push hard you have to keep heat in your tires"!!!

    Does Dunlop (my preferred brand) make tires, as other manufacturers do for the supermotarders, aimed at the requirements of light weight bikes for high levels of grip? Put another way: TZ-250 grip on a Q2 budget.

    Any help would be appreciated.
     

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