Speed shifting

[Highboro]

I went to my first track day of the year at Summit Point yesterday and I was having an issue shifting. I have a 2007 Suzuki GSXR 600 and periodically it would not advance to the next gear when speed shifting (standard shift without quick shifter). I would get the revs up to approximately 15,000rpm, barely let off the gas, then hit the shift lever and the transmission would not advance to the next gear. Has anyone ever had this problem or know why I am having this issue?

Thanks in advance.
Dustin

 

[blueninja1]

There is no such thing as speedshifting with standard shift (without a quickshifter). You have to let off the throttle momentarily to take the load off of the clutch in order to shift up smoothly and without resistance. If you force it in you are only going to wreck your clutch very quickly. It may also be that your timing is slightly off and you are easing back onto the throttle while attempting to shift up. Just slow it down a little bit and get the timing right, and remember to let off that throttle in between. Also make sure that you are pulling that clutch in fully and continue to have it pulled in while you shift. With practice you can narrow the time frame in between shifts as your clutch hand, throttle hand, and foot times the sequence of events just right. Your foot may have to get accustom to the upshift action, getting a comfortable position on the peg to flick up, and coordinating with your clutch and throttle hand. I use standard shift and it takes a bit of practice to get it perfect each time and even when you do get a bit of seat time you may miss a gear up every once in a while due to the play in the shift lever or other factors (oil viscosity may not be optimal, leading to notchy shifting). It's just one of those things that takes practice.

Also make sure that your clutch is functioning correctly. While at a dead stop and on a flat surface put the bike in first gear (no brake, just holding the clutch in). If the bike creeps forward you may have to adjust the clutch cable tension slack. The clutch is not fully disengaging and this can explain why the bike won't shift smoothly. What weight oil do you use?

Also, depending on your rearset/gearshift link setup you may be able to adjust the distance from the shift lever to the peg to get a better ergonomic feel for the upshift.

 

[Emerson]

Highboro;270797 wrote: I went to my first track day of the year at Summit Point yesterday and I was having an issue shifting. I have a 2007 Suzuki GSXR 600 and periodically it would not advance to the next gear when speed shifting (standard shift without quick shifter). I would get the revs up to approximately 15,000rpm, barely let off the gas, then hit the shift lever and the transmission would not advance to the next gear. Has anyone ever had this problem or know why I am having this issue?

Thanks in advance.
Dustin

Two things..
1. Disregard what Blueninja said

2. are you able to do it in other gears?

 

[blueninja1]

Emerson, you are a nice guy in person. A bit confused at the way you just discounted some qualified advice I was trying to offer a member. Anyway, it seems that any advice or help I try to offer will always be seen as negative. I guess I will let the pro's handle it.

 

[Emerson]

blueninja1;270806 wrote: Emerson, you are a nice guy in person. A bit confused at the way you just discounted some qualified advice I was trying to offer a member. Anyway, it seems that any advice or help I try to offer will always be seen as negative. I guess I will let the pro's handle it.

The reason I did that is because you can do clutchless upshifts on just about any bike. Doesnt matter if you have stnd or GP shift, no need for a quickshifter. All you have to do is unload the transmission (roll of the throttle for a split sec) and shift up. all the quickshifter does is unload the trans for you.

Reading it again it does come off as a bit harsh and for that i apologize , but next time make sure the advice you are giving is fact. Where did you hear you couldn't do clutchless upshifts if you had stnd shift pattern?

 

[blueninja1]

Of course you can do clutchless upshift but there is a reason why I say to use the clutch. If he was talking about downshifting then I would say you were correct in saying ditch the clutch since on downshift the engine is under minimal load except for the engine braking. And even the engine braking of inline 4's may give a bit of stress. People who ride 2 stroke dirtbikes commonly do clutchless downshifts because of the way the gearbox is built to withstand this abuse and the fact that 2 strokes have virtually no engine braking to stress the clutch.

Now let's get into upshifts. Clutchless upshifts should be a no-no with a 600cc sportbike because under acceleration the engine is under load and even if you let off the gas momentarily and shift up you still risk screwing up the clutch plates if you mis-time. Even Gary Semics advises to nip that clutch on upshift. That is what the clutch is there for. Utilize every tool you have. If you have to get every millisecond out, just nip that clutch, you don't have to pull it in all the way, but just enough that the next gear engages smoothly.

I know everyone thinks I am an idiot, but I actually know a thing or two. Just trying to help out.

Also just to clarify, I never said you cannot clutchless upshift. I thought by speedshifting he meant forcing it into the next gear without use of the clutch. I apologize for that.

It's okay, I know you're a cool dude, no harm no foul.

 

[Emerson]

blueninja1;270808 wrote: Of course you can do clutchless upshift but there is a reason why I say to use the clutch. If he was talking about downshifting then I would say you were correct in saying ditch the clutch since on downshift the engine is under minimal load except for the engine braking. And even the engine braking of inline 4's may give a bit of stress. People who ride 2 stroke dirtbikes commonly do clutchless downshifts because of the way the gearbox is built to withstand this abuse and the fact that 2 strokes have virtually no engine braking to stress the clutch.

Now let's get into upshifts. Clutchless upshifts should be a no-no with a 600cc sportbike because under acceleration the engine is under load and even if you let off the gas momentarily and shift up you still risk screwing up the clutch plates if you mis-time. Even Gary Semics advises to nip that clutch on upshift. That is what the clutch is there for. Utilize every tool you have. If you have to get every millisecond out, just nip that clutch, you don't have to pull it in all the way.

I know everyone thinks I am an idiot, but I actually know a thing or two. Just trying to help out.

what do you think a quickshifter does?

 

[blueninja1]

Tbh I don't have any knowledge of a quickshifter, never used one. My expertise is with standard shifting. I'll let you advise on the qs because that is out of my depth. But for standard shift, use of clutch, etc., I got all the bases covered, tried everything, and I'll tell ya, even on a dirtbike with clutchless upshifting the damn thing will protest, especially on a bumpy surface. Any stress that is introduced into the tranny will screw up any plans you have on a smooth upshift.

Again, you can clutchless upshift if your timing is perfect and you are on a relatively smooth surface, but trust me, sooner or later you are going to screw up and after enough screw ups you're going to have to shell out for another tranny. I'm just trying to save you some money because we aren't racing in the TT's, where every thousandth of a second counts.

 

[D-Zum]

blueninja1;270810 wrote: Tbh I don't have any knowledge

You should have stopped RIGHT THERE Branden. That pretty much covers your authority on the topic.

I have two 600's now...and have had a previous GSXR600...and a 1000...clutchless upshifted on all of them with NO problem..the GSXR1000 was a 2001 with over 10000 miles on the original clutch with NO problem. The bike's original clutch is going strong. The 2006 GSXR600 motor/clutch were just fine...eventually I added a stand alone quick shifter to that bike because backing off the throttle for a split second does kill your drive a little bit..the electronics in the quick shifter are faster and more convenient than human reflexes.

 

[blueninja1]

Ummm actually I do have knowledge, hundreds of hours riding mx, a season of trackdays. Not much, but enough to be meaningful to the TS. He does not have a quickshifter, so my points are valid.

I am not trying to argue, quite the opposite. Anyway, if it means making peace I will let you guys handle it. I see where I stand.

 

[Emerson]

blueninja1;270812 wrote: Ummm actually I do have knowledge, hundreds of hours riding mx, a season of trackdays. Not much, but enough to be meaningful to the TS. He does not have a quickshifter, so my points are valid.

I guess everyone is doing it wrong.... http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=11281

PS, I have a dirtbike and I do clutchless upshifts on it and never had an issue on that either.

 

[D-Zum]

blueninja1;270806 wrote: Emerson, you are a nice guy in person. A bit confused at the way you just discounted some qualified advice I was trying to offer a member. Anyway, it seems that any advice or help I try to offer will always be seen as negative. I guess I will let the pro's handle it.

Yes..he is....one of THE nicest guys I've ever met..and he's also perfecting his craft as an extremely talented motorcycle painter.

I first met him at the VERY first NESBA Skills Enhancement Day..we were both B riders...liked him from the start. We both LISTENED and LEARNED in B..and guess what....? Emerson's a CR now...passing on the lessons to you and others.

 

[blueninja1]

And I guess Gary Semics was talkin out of his ass when he was stressing to nip that clutch. To each his own I guess. The information is out there for everyone's disposal. It's not like I'm making stuff up.

I have no doubts that Emerson and you are talented riders.

At the same time I also have no doubt that I am a talented rider with a good knowledge base.

 

[D-Zum]

Emerson's talented. I've seen enough of his back tire pulling a gap on me to know that.

You may have a knowledge base on something, like what you've studied in school...stick to that.

Emerson's talent comes from actual experience, not parroting someone else's information anyone can get off google.

 

[blueninja1]

Well the most important thing is that the threadstarter has 2 solutions to his problems. The popular choice seems to be to clutchless upshift (which will probably round off the edges of the gears and make the bike more likely to slip out of gear) OR nip that clutch because that is what it is there for.

Let me paint a picture for you. Of some of the stuff I had to endure and where I am coming from. It includes no parroting, but real life experience. Cold hard facts.

I don't share all of this with everybody, mostly keep it to myself. But I have a chance to give you guys a more intimate portrait of who I am.

After an eventful track day season I was thankful of what I learned, and realized that I had so much more to learn. After building myself into debt I trailed back from trackdays to sharpen my skills in the foundation of motorcycling, dirt. It's cheap and you can't get more bang for your buck.

I rented cars until I had literally no more money to get to the motocross track. After the money ran out I waked my ass up at 4:30 am weekly (freezing or blazing hot temps) to get to the motocross track by train and by walking miles and eating one small meal, hitting the mx track for hours and sometimes spending all day doing top end rebuilds/maintenance, etc. on my own bike without any experience whatsoever and with some help from the track owner (very thankful for). I've had some hard luck but made the best with what I have.

I don't appreciate people taking my hard-earned experience and taking it for granted. I am no motogp champion but I have the drive and ambition of any of them. I don't have the seat time of you or Emerson, or the CR's of yet, but trust me when I do get that seat time I will be as fast as anybody. I don't spend my time to write in these threads to show off myself. I do it because I care about the safety and performance of myself and the other riders. Offering what little I know to make the track a safer and more enjoyable experience for everyone, including myself.

My talking will be on the track from now on. I'll see you guys there.

 

[HondaGalToo]

Hi Dustin. I have the same bike and rode others of that year at the Schwantz School. Shifting into 4th was sometimes not as easy as other gears. Make sure you are completely letting the pressure off the shift lever in between shifts. I've also been doing clutchless upshifts for years. Just don't do it downshifting - learn to blip to match revs if you haven't already.

 

[fitz]

Brandin last year was a tough year for me and reading your post as strange as it might sound brings back some normality to my life and a HUGE smile to my face, I just want to sincerely thank you for that and please don’t stop posting.

 

[Highboro]

Thanks for all the feed back, I really appreciate the help! *This is mainly happening on the main straight when I am shifting from 3rd to 4th gear. *Maybe this is a Suzuki thing like Judy said and I need to make sure I am off the shift lever before shifting. *Hopefully it is not a mechanical problem. *Not sure how to*blip to match revs, is this only during up shifting?

Thanks again.
Dustin

 

[betarace]

I up shift my variable speed drill FTW

 

[HondaGalToo]

Highboro;270827 wrote: Thanks for all the feed back, I really appreciate the help! *This is mainly happening on the main straight when I am shifting from 3rd to 4th gear. *Maybe this is a Suzuki thing like Judy said and I need to make sure I am off the shift lever before shifting. *Hopefully it is not a mechanical problem. *Not sure how to*blip to match revs, is this only during up shifting?

Thanks again.
Dustin

If it's third to fourth, that's when I've noticed it on occasion, too. Not a mechanical problem, as I said, just fully let the pressure off, that'll help tons.

Nope, blipping the throttle is for downshifting only. It's to match the higher rpm because you're going down a gear. It's done so you don't get a jerk when you let the clutch out. Although, the slipper clutch can be used instead, to a degree. I still maintain it's an important skill to learn.

Here's a write-up explaining it the best I could to another member:

It's a bit difficult to explain, as it all happens nearly simultaneously. I roll off a bit first (or maybe not, depends on the situation and the corner), pull in the clutch, blip the throttle, then downshift. Then let the clutch back out while getting back on the gas to accelerate. Those steps happen within millliseconds of each other.

So, I would say I pull the clutch in and blip when the clutch is in. I must. If the clutch weren't pulled in, a blip would cause a sudden, sharp acceleration. When I say pull in the clutch, I mean I do it just a fraction of a second prior to blipping the throttle.

When I pull in the clutch, it's just enough to disengage it. I do not pull it all the way in to the bar. I have it adjusted to "catch" without pulling it in very much. So the motion on the clutch is kind of like a tap. Tap it in and out quickly. Tap, tap, tap. Two fingers.

It all happens really quickly. I learned to just blip first, without trying to add in braking. I would go out on the highway (or any road) and just go up and down through the gears (well, 3rd through 6th - not gonna drop to 1st on the freeway at 60+ mph!), trying to keep the rpms somewhat consistent (not letting them drop more than 500 rpm in between shifting gears, if it drops more than that, you're doing it too slowly and it won't be as smooth). I was taught to practice blipping that way by Reg Pridmore when I took CLASS many moons ago. I just kept at it. Shift up, downshift back down while blipping. Repeat....up through the gears, down through the gears. When you get it right, it's so cool. You can hear the rpms go up, feel the bike slow a bit from engine braking, but there is no jerk in the bike at all. Smile.

Definitely a skill to work on. Learn it without trying to brake at the same time at first. Then learn to do it while you are braking.
Hope that helps. If you don't ride street, practice in a parking lot, just going up to third, then blipping to second. Over and over.