The final Say on Coolant

Racerboy

Racerboy

Know the Toe
Hey all,
this was a topic I was debating about with Senior leadership at N2. I never really received an end result response; So, for us racers, we will have to dump our race approved coolant for either water or wetter? & the other groups do not have to change out? Please advise. V/R Scott
 
andykurz

andykurz

Member
There has been extensive discussion on this and the rulebook very clearly states that certain coolants are not legal. It used to specify "glycol" as prohibited, it now just says "Evans-tpye" and "Engine Ice." So you are supposed to dump your coolant. Engine Ice, for example, is illegal with N2, but legal with organizations like CCS, for example.

Rulebook excerpt:
"COOLANT Coolant is required to be changed from antifreeze to water only for the Advanced group. When you change the coolant in your bike, do so with two flushes of the system with water wetter. Empty the coolant in a gallon jug and save it. It can be reused later if it looks clean. Fill the system with water, run the bike for a few minutes to bring it up to temperature, and then let it cool. Drain and repeat. Then fill it to proper level. You may think this is unnecessary, but riders have gone down because of coolant hose failure. Anti‐freeze is very slippery and decreases available traction to the equivalent of ice. It is also very difficult to clean up and has to be flushed with large amounts of water, which is usually not available at the track. Engine Ice and Evans‐type coolants are NO longer permitted! Water Wetter is permitted."

I know you participated in this thread (http://forum.n2td.org/index.php?threads/coolant-and-other-related-stuff-that-i-come-up-with.35093/) as well, and I don't believe anything has changed since then.

I will say though, this is usually done on the honor system. My coolant has never been inspected for A group, nor have I seen others inspected.
 
Slitherin

Slitherin

Control Rider
Director
I always ask an A Group Rider "what are you running for coolant?" If the answer is water or WW, then he/she passes. So I'm sure you don't mean "Honor System" as in they don't check so give them the answer that gets you the tech sticker.

Crash on the first session with unapproved coolant that shuts the track down for hours to clean up.................getting through Tech Inspection was the easy part. Getting out of the pits in one piece.........maybe no so easy.

Listen, the approved coolants work and are safe in the event of a crash.
 
andykurz

andykurz

Member
Agreed John, I don't think there is any ambiguity on the topic, and I know there has been a lot of discussion on these boards recently which confirms the same.

(for the avoidance of doubt, I run water and wetter)
 
Mikey75702

Mikey75702

Member
Didn't N2's rule book on coolant get changed to match Wera's? I know ccs allows some things wera doesn't, but if I recall correctly, everything legal for wera is legal for n2
 
HondaGalToo

HondaGalToo

Control Rider
Mikey75702 said:
Didn't N2's rule book on coolant get changed to match Wera's? I know ccs allows some things wera doesn't, but if I recall correctly, everything legal for wera is legal for n2
Click to expand...
From WERA's rulebook: c) Water cooled engines may use plain water, or water with Redline (or similar product, call WERA for verification) cooling system rust and corrosion inhibitor at 0.5 ounces per quart of plain water concentration, Silkolene Pro CCA (Corrosion Control Additive) and Royal Purple Purple Ice are also allowed. Glycol based antifreezes are prohibited.

Not that it really matters what CCS/WERA/track org xyz allows. Our Riders Manual still says water or water+water wetter. I don't know the outcome of your discussion with N2 Senior Leadership, but our Riders Manual hasn't been changed that I'm aware. Did Senior Leadership give any indication they were thinking of revising that rule?
 
Racerboy

Racerboy

Know the Toe
Well in end,
this is very problematic for me, its a pain flip flopping back and forth to change out the RACE approved coolant I've been running for well over 15 yrs, just to run a trk day with you all, and on the other hand, a different set of rules for the lesser experienced riders who are exempt, which is so absurd. I guess I should run in the lesser groups just to keep from tearing my race bikes apart. I will not be joining you all, this particular ruling is the most ridiculous Ive ever heard.
 
HondaGalToo

HondaGalToo

Control Rider
Sorry to hear. I think all track orgs require no ethylene glycol only in the advanced groups, so we are consistent there. The other track orgs may allow glycol based. Just curious, why don't you run water wetter to race? The wera guys do.
 
Slitherin

Slitherin

Control Rider
Director
Racerboy, contact support and post your concerns. I'm sure it will get addressed formally and a rulling made. I know the intent is NOT to be a PITA and if there are alternatives that are available I'm sure the N2 team will address. It may just be an issue that is really not of high priority and only affects a few number of members. They are working on securing track days, bringing online the ATP program, etc. Believe me, they are working every day on the Club to improve and make everyones day the best experience possible. They do listen and adjust whenever possible. Propose a formal rule change and see where it goes.
 
andykurz

andykurz

Member
HondaGalToo said:
Sorry to hear. I think all track orgs require no ethylene glycol only in the advanced groups, so we are consistent there. The other track orgs may allow glycol based. Just curious, why don't you run water wetter to race? The wera guys do.
Click to expand...

Judy one of the main reasons why people don't like the rule is that water and wetter:
- claim to have rust inhibitors, but have been shown to cause rust if not changed frequently. In any case, they don't inhibit rust like a real glycol-based coolant
- can freeze. Engine Ice has freeze protection to like, -20 or something

On the other hand, water and wetter:
- is not extremely slippery and is easy to clean
- dissipates heat better than any glycol-based coolant and will result in lower operating temps (I actually tested this at idle on my bike one year: water+coolant vs. water vs. water+wetter - try it for yourself!)

In any case, this issue has come up a few times this year, and the rule book is explicit. I guess the question is whether the book should be changed.

And John, I am in no way suggesting people should try to sneak things through tech, but I see how it may come across that way. Instead, I am saying that many things that the rulebook state can't be checked 100% at tech, and even if they could, may change (worsen) throughout the day. It is the rider's responsibility to continuously tech your bike and help others out by mentioning it if you see something. I had a rider once point out that there was no oil showing in my sight glass. Guess what? I sure appreciated that input!!
 
HondaGalToo

HondaGalToo

Control Rider
Thanks. I obviously knew it offers no freeze protection. Didn't know about rust. I've been using it for many years and haven't noticed any problems. I put it in during the spring and put the green stuff back in for winter.

Perhaps it's time to reassess the rule, since many track orgs and some race orgs allow glycol based coolants.
 
Racerboy

Racerboy

Know the Toe
My bikes are race prepped and tight, I comply with every rule that CCS and WERA requires, my race coolant has never been an issue, Ive crashed at Barber a couple times thru the yrs and even had a spill, clean up no issue, not even fined. but not to say you all are wrong, your club, your rules, but to say that the racers are required to dump but not the other groups? If that's final, I might as well run in the lesser groups. I do my coolant once a yr, its hard enough taking everything off, dump flush dump pour, rewire etc. Now, the gentleman who tested the pros of wetter as compared to race coolants, in the ability to cool, or no difference in the ability to cool, I just elect to use my race stuff for it works, its compliant and I have barrel fulls of the stuff! I spoke with some of the racers I meet up and compete against, they see your point and agree on some aspects of it, but to say just the racers dump, all others exempt, is strange. In fact, I brought up this very issue with a CCS tech official, and he thought it was odd to have racers dump and all other groups are gtg, but on the same token, would agree with your rules based on a clubs prerogative. So, to end this thread, I'll not ride with you all.
 
moman

moman

Member
I too have wondered why advanced has to use water/wetter. Seems to me there is more chance of a crash in the less experienced groups and thus greater chance of glycol spill.
Not just N2 that does it this way and certainly makes no sense.
 
HondaGalToo

HondaGalToo

Control Rider
As I'd said, I think not requiring it in Novice and Intermediate is that one goal is to get folks off the street and onto the track so they can learn to be better riders. If the tech requirements are too intensive, they won't bother. That's a rational that's been used, anyway, not saying I agree with it. I've also heard that crashes in Advanced are harder and can more easily lead to spilled fluids. Not sure I fully agree with that either, but it is a balance between safety and getting riders off the street to try the track. Personally, I'd rather see the same tech requirements for all groups except Intro (the free 2 sessions) but I'm a compulsive safety nut, lol. Also as mentioned above, none of the other trackday orgs require it in N or I either.

As for pg, I have no idea why ccs and other track orgs allow it, but N2 and wera do not, but I'm not the one with experience on how difficult it is to clean up. What I do know, is that this debate has been going on since the beginning of trackdays it'll continue ad nauseum.
 
motorkas

motorkas

Member
moman said:
I too have wondered why advanced has to use water/wetter. Seems to me there is more chance of a crash in the less experienced groups and thus greater chance of glycol spill.
Not just N2 that does it this way and certainly makes no sense.
Click to expand...

Never formally asked the powers that be about this but I just assumed it was because of the following (could be totally wrong):

1) while every crash is different and slow crashes can be very destructive, the potential for fluid spills increase as the speeds of the crash increase (no scientific evidence behind this claim). . . but anecdotally, every time I've been in a 50 plus A group, the ratio of crashes is about the same to B or I group but the condition of the bikes after the crashes most of the time are not)

2) most B riders are using street bikes, 99% of A riders are using dedicated track bikes - while it's a gross assumption - most of the people pulling apart bikes are A riders. . .having to take a bike to a dealership twice a year to get a radiator flush just to do a couple of track days would keep more potential new riders away from the track.

3) As counterintuitive as it sounds, the group(s) that really keeps the lights on are B and I group. . .the vast majority of the days I've been too, A group has a hand full of riders while B and I are packed. Since B group especially is new to the track and probably using street bikes, the hassle of the switching fluids would be enough to keep them away (for example (and not throwing stones at RacerBoy (believe brother I'm not). . .he's an experienced rider who has the tools, know how and ability to do the flush and just the thought of doing it is enough to not want to ride with N2. . .now imagine no lift in the garage, never pulled the fairing off your bike ect and you being in B group. . .For us it's a time issue. . .for them it's a 100.00/hr labor issue on top of everything other cost.

Personally, I despise doing radiator flushes but I just don't want to be "that guy". . .fortunately, my solution for putting antifreeze back in much simpler - I just take it to Markbilt in the winter for my suspension refresh and he switches it to antifreeze as a precaution when they're sitting in the warehouse:D.

Not going to lie. . .after I saw that the new R1 has a drain valve for coolant, I was PISSED that I have to pull hoses of my bike:mad:

Racerboy, hope you reconsider but I will totally agree with you. . .flushing the system SUUUUUUCKS (but as everybody knows - being "that guy/girl" is so much worse:)!!!!!!
 
HondaGalToo

HondaGalToo

Control Rider
^^^^Racerboy, does this help you out? What are you running? You'd said it was WERA legal, so I assume it's non-glycol of some sort?
 
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