Why did I low-side?

[redrdr]

Anyone have a good way of analyzing how your crashed? I low-sided this past weekend, and I'm not sure how to go about determining the cause. I was in a left-hand turn, and all of a sudden the bike slid. I don't even know where to begin anaylzing what happened?

I'm running a set of Pilot Powers, so maybe I just exceeded their capabilities. There was a combined intermediate/advanced group that I was in, and I was definitely pushing hard enough to keep up with a few of the advanced riders.

Another thought is that I have the rear suspension preload too hard. Any thoughts on this? Maybe the tire gave way rather becuase the suspension wasn't compressing.

I have a gopro, and the video shows I was into the turn and things were going normally. All of a sudden, the I slid. There wasn't any warning or signs from the tires. I don't remember anything on the track, but maybe there was water, oil, or something else where I lost traction. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dbarufaldi]

redrdr;217237 wrote: Anyone have a good way of analyzing how your crashed? I low-sided this past weekend, and I'm not sure how to go about determining the cause. I was in a left-hand turn, and all of a sudden the bike slid. I don't even know where to begin anaylzing what happened?

I'm running a set of Pilot Powers, so maybe I just exceeded their capabilities. There was a combined intermediate/advanced group that I was in, and I was definitely pushing hard enough to keep up with a few of the advanced riders.

Another thought is that I have the rear suspension preload too hard. Any thoughts on this? Maybe the tire gave way rather becuase the suspension wasn't compressing.

I have a gopro, and the video shows I was into the turn and things were going normally. All of a sudden, the I slid. There wasn't any warning or signs from the tires. I don't remember anything on the track, but maybe there was water, oil, or something else where I lost traction. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Can you post the video?

What was the throttle position at the time? Where in the turn were you? Where did you do your braking? Were you on the race line or off? What was your body position? What was the ambient temp, what tire pressures where you running? Do you know if the front or rear slid? Was there a bump in the turn?

Details will help us get to the answer...

Dan B

 

[Gorecki]

:agree: You can get a lot more help if you post the video.

Not exactly sure how a guy whose self labeled as was in an / situation, but okay. :notsure:

A most simple common cause would be being a bit greedy with the trottle coming out of the turn and if it's a liter not that hard to do. But again, without being able to see and hear what was going on... :dunno:

 

[PatFitz9]

*generally* a low side mid-turn is caused by giving it too much throttle for the given lean angle. How much "too much" throttle is depends on a lot of factors. Also, street tires don't give much warning before they slip, or control when they slip.

 

[gkotlin]

How old are the tires? May times, the PP's look good, but they have some age and don't have the grip they once did.

Trying to over analyze a crash after the fact is futile many times. It could have been 1000 things. 500 of which you may not even be aware of. Crashing happens. Get with a CR. Continue to grow and work on your weaknesses. As you gain experience you'll start to realize when you make mistakes. Some may cause you to crash. Others may not. But experience and seat time are your friend.

Post up the video and we can see if there is something obvious. But again, after the fact, don't go searching for causes to heavily.

 

[j_fuggin_t]

too hard to tell w/o footage and by footage meaning someone behind you. Could have been too much lean, too much brake, tire temp, suspension settings etc..

 

[redrdr]

Obviously, I'm trying to determine if there is something simple to fix. Crashing isn't fun or cheap, so I'm trying to minimize it. I haven't update my sig in a while, so I'm no longer in the B group. I picked up a cheaper track bike, so I'm on an 04 R6.

I'll see what I can do to post a video. I was on Lightening at NJMP. I was in turn 4 (left-hand before going over the right-hander that goes over a hill). There is a right-hander just before this turn, so I was at neutral throttle and didn't do any breaking just prior to the turn. Body position was normal in-turn behavior, shoulder and elbow down, one cheek off of the seat, head looking into the turn. I was on the race line, so I definitely didn't hit dirt and slide. I was mid-track when I hit the ground. The odd thing is that I was mid-turn, too. I was exiting and adding a bunch of throttle, so I'm not sure what happened. I was already turning for a second or so when it let go. Ambient temp was pretty good, probably 65 or 70. Tire pressures were 31/31 hot. This was on the third lap of session 4 as well, so I don't beleive it was a cold tire.

I couldn't tell which tire let go. Any idea how I would determine which tire let go? On the video, the bike slides wheels first then entire time. If it started to spin one way or the other, I could figure out which one let go.

The tires are fairly new. I had one day on them prior to Saturday, so still lots of life left. I bought the tire in June, so it is definitely not old. The tire felt fine on the first day, so I don't think it was a bad tire. I know I was pushing a lot more to try to stay with the A guys, so this seems like the only difference. It literally seems like the tire just let go.

My initial thoughts is that I was riding faster than the tire could handle. Might be time for some better tires, but I want to be a little more sure before buying another set.

I have a general question for everyone, how much do you spend on race tires for a given track day? How long do race tires last? If I'm looking at a set of race tires for each track day, then I'm might just be satisfied with riding a little slower.

 

[redrdr]

Oh ya, the last track day was about two weeks ago. So, it isn't like the tires aged dramatically in that amount of time.

 

[Gorecki]

redrdr;217257 wrote: Obviously, I'm trying to determine if there is something simple to fix. Crashing isn't fun or cheap, so I'm trying to minimize it. I haven't update my sig in a while, so I'm no longer in the B group. I picked up a cheaper track bike, so I'm on an 04 R6.
Thanks for clearing up some of the mystery.

I couldn't tell which tire let go. Any idea how I would determine which tire let go? On the video, the bike slides wheels first then entire time. If it started to spin one way or the other, I could figure out which one let go.

Maybe but not absolute, there could be slide markings on the tire(s) if you look closely enough. Again, not always. I had this the last time I went BOOM, I could clearly see the front pushed and then pretty sure it bit before the highside.

Simple and subtle things cause this and even being off the throttle or even neutral (depending on suspension and not being smooth) can load the front, strange crap can happen.

I presume you mean
I wasn't exiting and adding a bunch of throttle, so I'm not sure what happened.

 

[j_fuggin_t]

redrdr;217257 wrote:
My initial thoughts is that I was riding faster than the tire could handle. Might be time for some better tires, but I want to be a little more sure before buying another set.

I have a general question for everyone, how much do you spend on race tires for a given track day? How long do race tires last? If I'm looking at a set of race tires for each track day, then I'm might just be satisfied with riding a little slower.

this could be part of it, take q2's for instance, great tires, can even take you into a good mid pack A pace BUT you have to be sharp as a knife with your skills, the Dot Race & Slicks are more forgiving as far as what you'll spend depends on what you buy.. but i'd say a good average is around $400-500 and you can get pretty decent time out of them if you've got a good suspension set up.

 

[bodell]

Throttle causes... If the front let go you were not giving it enough gas. If the back let go you were giving it too much gas.
Brake causes... The brake is basically an ejection switch if used at the wrong time.
Steering causes... Often riders will force the bars into the direction of the turn. This is just as bad as grabbing the brake.
Look throughout this thread for examples...
http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=19963&page=6

 

[redrdr]

j_fuggin_t;217265 wrote: this could be part of it, take q2's for instance, great tires, can even take you into a good mid pack A pace BUT you have to be sharp as a knife with your skills, the Dot Race & Slicks are more forgiving as far as what you'll spend depends on what you buy.. but i'd say a good average is around $400-500 and you can get pretty decent time out of them if you've got a good suspension set up.

How many days to you get out of a set of DOT race or slicks? I was reading a good article on the Pirelli Superbike Pros. The article mentioned that there is a big change is performance and durability between street and race tires. Races and slicks girp well, but the life is nowhere near as long. It claims that the SB Pros are a good between tire for performance and wear. I don't think I want to shell out $400-500 per track day, so I'm looking for something with some durability. The street tires have been perfect to this point, but I'm now worried that I'm fast enough to need something better.

It looks like the my rear tire has some abnormal wear. Then again, it is hard to tell as it was the side sliding on the track and into the dirt/grass. The front looks fine. I don't think there was enough evidence on the tires to tell one way or another which one slid.

Gorecki - that was a bad typo for me to make. I wasn't exiting or adding throttle.

 

[j_fuggin_t]

again thats tough because its all dependent on what you run, your pace etc.. i personally can get about 6 complete days on a front slick & as of late between 2-4 days on a rear (going fast gets expensive)

 

[erick1670]

I think there are few factors that contribute in your crash:
1. Trying to keep up with the faster guys and you may have to much body input in that right left cominstion turn and probably tuck the front, at "A" pace everything comes at you way faster and you dint notice how much lean angle apply
2. Tyres, also probably dint handle the faster pace and let go

Like other have say, you just need to have more seat time and work being smoother and the speed will come to you with out trying and you don't even feel that you are going fast.... untill you make it to "A" my first day here made me feel like I was in "B" again.

If you think that you dint anything wrong that may have couse the crash then is time for you to invest in some DOT's.... Big difference between then, you say that you have Power Pilot or you meant Power Pures, in anycase you should switch to Power Ones Competition. In regards of how much they last, all depends in your ridding style. I will say 10-12 days out of a front and 4-6 out of the rear

 

[dbarufaldi]

redrdr;217269 wrote: How many days to you get out of a set of DOT race or slicks? I was reading a good article on the Pirelli Superbike Pros. The article mentioned that there is a big change is performance and durability between street and race tires. Races and slicks girp well, but the life is nowhere near as long. It claims that the SB Pros are a good between tire for performance and wear. I don't think I want to shell out $400-500 per track day, so I'm looking for something with some durability. The street tires have been perfect to this point, but I'm now worried that I'm fast enough to need something better.

It looks like the my rear tire has some abnormal wear. Then again, it is hard to tell as it was the side sliding on the track and into the dirt/grass. The front looks fine. I don't think there was enough evidence on the tires to tell one way or another which one slid.

Gorecki - that was a bad typo for me to make. I wasn't exiting or adding throttle.

A nice upgrade from your Pilot Powers would be the Dunlop Q2. Better in everything other than wet than the PP's. I found them to be considerably better in dry grip than even the Power Pures, which are better than the Pilot Powers. And they are often cheaper than the PP's....so that might be a nice next step.

An earlier poster makes a good point - you can go faster on Pilot Powers, but the margin for error is reduced - you just have less traction in the bank to pull your bacon out of the fire. I run Power Pures and Q2s in upper Intermediate and in most other groups, Advanced. The Q2s are great, but I'm running a primarily street tire at a pretty good pace on the track. I have to know that I don't get to make big mistakes and hope to recover them. Someone who is a better rider than me could go faster on the same tires, but someone who has less skill will crash at a slower pace. Like Don Henley says, "I think it's about.....Forgiveness"....

 

[cooker1]

I had the same problem only 3x in one weekend I found that I had just pushed the Q2s to a level on my SV that they wouldnt hold I put on a set of Pirelli Superbike TD slicks and have no problems since . The price was not that bad I got them for like 350 which is a 100 more than the Q2s as far as wear goes I have about 12 TDs on them ans am going to get 1 or 2 more I hope !

 

[fitz]

cooker1;217282 wrote: I had the same problem only 3x in one weekend I found that I had just pushed the Q2s to a level on my SV that they wouldnt hold I put on a set of Pirelli Superbike TD slicks and have no problems since . The price was not that bad I got them for like 350 which is a 100 more than the Q2s as far as wear goes I have about 12 TDs on them ans am going to get 1 or 2 more I hope !

Dave,

I've seen guys run the Q2s in A/upper I on 1liters, and in another post it shows you just got bumped to "I" in Sept. and you're saying you're pushing the Q2s to a level they won't hold on a SV? :notsure:

Maybe you should be in upper "A"? :dunno:

 

[j_fuggin_t]

cooker1;217282 wrote: I had the same problem only 3x in one weekend I found that I had just pushed the Q2s to a level on my SV that they wouldnt hold I put on a set of Pirelli Superbike TD slicks and have no problems since . The price was not that bad I got them for like 350 which is a 100 more than the Q2s as far as wear goes I have about 12 TDs on them ans am going to get 1 or 2 more I hope !

Its not that you outperformed the q2's its that you lost confidence in them, I wanna say granznow was doing 16's at putnam on them which is PDQ, trust me them tires are capable of alot more than you think. You personally just have a higher confidence level in the TD pro's which i understand, confidence is everything in this sport, with none, you have none

 

[erick1670]

j_fuggin_t;217296 wrote: confidence is everything in this sport, with none, you have none

:agree:

 

[slowpoke]

parts of this thread just scare me.