Why did I low-side?

[redrdr]

Xiong675;217519 wrote: When i crashed my first trackday, tried to blame the tires also. I was looking for something to blame besides me; it didn't get me anywhere. Once i understood that it was my fault for not performing and got back out there with a clearer head, i was able to progress much better. Like Greg said, leave the past be. Chasing it won't get you no where unless it was clearly something wrong with the bike.

Goodluck to ya.

This was far from my first track day. The only variable that changed was my pace picked up as I was trying to keep up with a faster group of riders. Throttle was neautral, so that doesn't seems like the issue. The evidence points to the tire letting go, so it seems logical that I need better tires to increase the margin for error.

Leave the past be! Never. Mistakes are the most valuable learning one can do. You really know what not to do. It immediately points out you weak spot. There is no guess on where you need to improve when it comes to a mistake. You have an immediate chance to improve where you need it the most. It would be one thing if I was guess. I have a video with the camera mounted to the tail section. I can see body position and hear the engine. The evidence is pretty clear.

I'm really surprised no one wants to say that there are limits to lower performing tires. Eventually, you need better equipment. I could probably work on skills, but getting better tires is a much faster, easier way of not crashing. In the end, not crashing is the goal.

 

[bodell]

Post the video already.

 

[fitz]

redrdr;217532 wrote: I could probably work on skills, but getting better tires is a much faster, easier way of not crashing.

:doh:

 

[HondaGalToo]

redrdr;217532 wrote: I'm really surprised no one wants to say that there are limits to lower performing tires. Eventually, you need better equipment. I could probably work on skills, but getting better tires is a much faster, easier way of not crashing. In the end, not crashing is the goal.

No. Working on your skills is better way of not crashing. I never like mixing brands of tires, for starters. I think you're still trying to blame the tires. Back a dozen years ago, people raced on tires that weren't as good as the current crop of hypersport street tires. Pushing too hard "trying to keep up with faster riders" can get you into trouble as well.

I haven't read the entire thread very closely, but losing the rear sounds like too abrupt throttle application to me.

 

[bodell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3WcuvL737A

 

[tittys04]

redrdr;217532 wrote: I'm really surprised no one wants to say that there are limits to lower performing tires. Eventually, you need better equipment. I could probably work on skills, but getting better tires is a much faster, easier way of not crashing. In the end, not crashing is the goal.

Your logic is wrong here. Will getting race tires band-aid the issue and allow you to ride at a faster pace? Sure. But what you don't realize is that there is a reason you crashed. I would bet that Rossi or Stoner could do 15's at summit on a stock bike with stock tires (not even 2ct's or q2's). How? They are super smooth, predictable, and talented. Can I or anyone else here? Nope. The point is, tires are capable of A LOT more than you think, but only if you are smooth. Crashing is almost always a direct result of not being smooth.

Instead of focusing on getting new tires because they made you crash, you need to focus on being smooth, body position, brake markers, apexes, etc. Focusing on these things allows you to be a smooth, consistent rider no matter what tires you are on.

On a side note, I'm not saying you shouldn't move up to race tires, but I am certainly saying that it wasn't the tires fault. You need to evaluate what happened and work on improving those issues. Good luck!

 

[PatFitz9]

I've never heard of a tire just "letting go". Something had to change - throttle input, lean angle, road angle, etc. If they were holding your pace, lean angle, and "neutral throttle" there is no reason they wouldn't keep on doing that. Something made them slip. Yes, you may have been at the limit of the tire and yes a different tire may have prevented this crash (you happy? ), but that doesn't mean it still wasn't caused by something you did.

 

[redrdr]

HondaGalToo;217536 wrote: No. Working on your skills is better way of not crashing. I never like mixing brands of tires, for starters. I think you're still trying to blame the tires. Back a dozen years ago, people raced on tires that weren't as good as the current crop of hypersport street tires. Pushing too hard "trying to keep up with faster riders" can get you into trouble as well.

I haven't read the entire thread very closely, but losing the rear sounds like too abrupt throttle application to me.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before commenting. I stated I was mid-turn, and neutral throttle. Kind of hard to give it too much throttle when you aren't increasing throttle at all.

I'm not trying to "blame" the tires. I'm trying to find the cause of what went wrong. The cause was the tires let loose. Now, one can ask what caused the tires to let loose. Well, I could have hit a spot of fluid or foreign object. No way of determining that. I could have exceeded the tires limits. Still not sure why no one sees that as an option, but seems like a possibility to me. The only other thing I can think of is that I counter steered too hard. I'm a smaller guy, so getting the bike into the turn quickly is challenging. I've noticed I've begun to pull pretty hard on the outside bar to get the bike into the turn. Would pulling on the bars too hard cause this?

This entire sport is about riding the edge of limits. You can go faster by pushing to the limits of one's traction. Obviously, exceeding the limits results in bad stuff happening. Increasing the available traction (better tires) increases the margin of error. If the current street tires are so good, then why do so many in the advaced group use race tires and not street tires? Because street tires aren't as capable.

I'm seeing a lot of opinions here, and not a lot of facts. I'm disappointed that so many are quick to jump to the assumption that it was rider throttle error. What facts are you using to support this? I mention several times I had neutral throttle.

I'm going to check my rear suspension preload. It may be a simple case of the preload being too high. Rather than the suspension compressing, the tire may have let go. Any other ideas on technical things to check?

 

[HondaGalToo]

I did read the part about "neutral throttle". I did read that much. You're still trying to blame it on something other than rider error. At least that's what I'm getting out of it, and I'm not the only one. What facts are you looking for? People are offering solid, educated opinions based on a wealth of experience. They can't give actual "facts" because they weren't there behind you, or piloting the bike. So comments will be a bit subjective. That first left at lightning catches out a lot of folks. I've slid there myself a couple of times...cold tires and not smooth enough throttle application, even though I felt I was more "neutral" than rolling on.

 

[redrdr]

fiveoboy01;217336 wrote: Just one thing I noticed, you said you are running 31/31 hot on those tires? Was that a typo?

You should always be setting your pressures cold. Tommy Mason(Michelin rep) says 32 front/26 rear cold for the non-2CT PP tires.

I found this at http://www.sportbikers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15819

"I found this reply on the GIXXER Site. Thought I'd pass the info on.


I want to qualify myself before I say anything so I dont get beat up for being a spod thats spouting wack info.

I am the Michelin tire vendor for WSMC, Fast Track, Track Daz, and So-Cal sportbike.

Pilot power Front - Street / Track day tire 36-38 psi
Pilot Power Rear - Street / Track day tire 35-37 psi

Pilot Power 2CT Front - Street / track day tire Dual Compound 32-34 psi
Pilot Power 2CT Rear - Street / track day tire Dual Compound 32-34 psi

Power race Front (PR1, PR2, PR C) 31 psi
Power race Rear (PR3, PR4, PR5) 22 psi

Power race rear 190/55 (Soft, Med/soft, med) 20 psi

Now for a little tech talk. The 2CT's have softer rubber on the sides as stated but they run a lower pressure then the regular pilot powers because they have a stiffer sidewall and carcass. The regular pilot powers have a very soft carcass and need the air pressure to keep the tire from folding over. The rubber is designed to heat up quickly and the tire doesnt need a low pressure to heat up. Lowering the pressures will only increase wear because it will cause the tire to run to hot, this will also lower the grip.

Anyone with questions can call or email us anytime

Precepts Motorsports
Ryan Hoffman
661-209-4062
Preceptsmoto@sbcglobal.net"

Well, the PP pressures seem high to me, but the guy has credibility. Any way to discredit this info?

 

[fitz]

The point you’re not getting is regardless of what tires/bike/suspension/brain you are on there are LIMITS. The problem that we ALL face is trying to ride within those limits, whether you are on street tires in B group or a MotoGP rider on the best tires money can buy.

The sooner you learn those limits the better rider you will be.

fitz

 

[bodell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUPrS0FWB4&feature=related


This guy can explain it better than any of us. I dont speak much Finnish, but I think he is saying that the tire starts to move around at the 1:00 mark, then totally lets go at 1:10.

 

[fitz]

bodell;217550 wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUPrS0FWB4&feature=related


This guy can explain it better than any of us. I dont speak much Finnish, but I think he is saying that the tire starts to move around at the 1:00 mark, then totally lets go at 1:10.

No, I actually understand Finnish, he is saying this is Bodells penis at 1:10

 

[bodell]

:adore:

fitz;217554 wrote: No, I actually understand Finnish, he is saying this is Bodells penis at 1:10

 

[HondaGalToo]

fitz;217554 wrote: No, I actually understand Finnish, he is saying this is Bodells penis at 1:10

Ok, I just doused my keyboard with coffee. Ass. LMAO!

 

[tittys04]

redrdr;217544 wrote: I could have exceeded the tires limits. Still not sure why no one sees that as an option, but seems like a possibility to me. The only other thing I can think of is that I counter steered too hard. I'm a smaller guy, so getting the bike into the turn quickly is challenging. I've noticed I've begun to pull pretty hard on the outside bar to get the bike into the turn. Would pulling on the bars too hard cause this?

Nope, again, your logic is off. If you were truly mid turn like you claim, you would not be countersteering at all. If you are, you are doing something wrong. By mid turn, you should have the bike completely engaged in the turn and settled down.

Don't misunderstand, by us saying it was rider error doesn't mean we are saying you suck. We have all been there, and most of us have even had that crash where we blame the tires/weather/etc. Over time though, you will realize that this is the whole point, you are trying to learn in any given set of circumstances. The fact that you crashed means that you made a mistake. Accept it, learn from it, and move on.

 

[trailmug]

redrdr;217530 wrote:
I think setting hot tire pressures is better than setting cold. A rider needs to pressure to be at a certain point while riding, not while in the parking lot. Setting the same cold pressure should get you to the same hot pressure, but conditions change. The day heats up. The tires may cool less between some sessions. Setting the hot pressure ensure that the pressure is the same while I'm on the track. This seems to be the logic of checking tire pressure when someone running warmers is up to temp.
I'm only willing to set hot temps on warmers. The same variability you fear in the parking lot is variability I fear coming off track. (Did I go faster this session? Did I take longer getting back to the pit? Was I in traffic?) When I was running "track/street" tires not on warmers, I set the recommended cold pressures at the beginning of the day and after lunch. As Greg said, people do it both ways.

redrdr;217530 wrote: I think the pilot power just isn't up to the task

You're already unwilling to trust the Pilot Power, and tires are a head game for a lot of people. If firing your tire gets the doubt out of your mind and lets you focus on your riding, do it. A weekend of confident track time lost is about the price of a set of tires.

HondaGalToo;217536 wrote: I never like mixing brands of tires, for starters.

As bodell said, your usual crash is from one tire losing traction before the other. Using a matched set seems like a good way to help prevent this.

 

[avizpls]

My name is Andy and I crashed. It was my fault.

 

[tittys04]

Hi Andy!

 

[hank]

This thread has a very 'Blue Ninja' feel to it.....

:doh:

:banghead::banghead::banghead: