bad day at VIR video

[denbsteph]

flynlow69;256278 wrote: maybe post #39 :doh:

Yea, like Mike said "No one listens to him anyway" :banghead: There is a method to my madness, I have been contacted by others from that organization and voiced my opinion. JRA always says "If you have a problem tell us now, don't wait till you get home then put it on the forum". I agree, but consistency with NESBA does not create issues for me to voice my concern. I have said what I said and I'm good with that, enough said.

 

[Ruhe52]

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[cbr_600rr_freak]

JRA;256283 wrote: It's part of my rider's meeting.

I've never heard you mention that. Did you include that recently?

 

[JRA]

2010 when I started doing the majority of rider meetings.

 

[cbr_600rr_freak]

I always listened and have never heard it. I'll stand closer next time.

 

[dbarufaldi]

pearsonm;256188 wrote:

My point again is that there's no good reason to approach an entrance from the middle of the track then drift to the outside white line for a cornering speed easily handled from the middle of the track where the maneuver began. Of course the chances are high that another rider committed to what was previously a comfortable pass on the outside only to get pinched off “..into the F-in weeds”. It's a common, unnecessary occurrence in the I group.

I disagree about this approach. The whole point of having the line,aside for it being the fastest way around the track, is to provide the goal or expectation that all riders will behave predictably, and every rider knows where they should be placing him/herself on the track. If riders were to take your approach, every rider at a different pace would be someplace different on the exit. That is dangerous, IMO. I think it is smarter to teach a "correct" line, and teach everyone to stay on the line regardless of pace. Then it is the overtaking rider's job to pick a spot where a safe overtake can happen, such that the rider being overtaken does not have to alter his line.

Dan B

 

[Ruhe52]

Dan you are correct we teach the race line. Once in a while pulling a faster rider through we will tap tail and will be showing a clean passing line but typically after assessing the rider ahead and making sure they are clean and predictable. Again there is nothing wrong with knowing the line and leaving a little room outside if you are off pace. As for the video it is easy to make assumptions based on the riding before hand. However unless you were right there in the mist of bodywork and flying bodies no way to know for sure. There is no question that up the left side setting up for 7 is a bad idea once in the turn the wide line you have to take is gonna run off camber and out of track by the time you get to the little left at the top. Can it be done sure it can. Is it good idea no it's a track day. Think ahead and plan use your head. As mentioned no one knows how they will act under stress but that is why we drill it into your heads every riders meeting (this is also mentioned every riders meeting) never stop on the track (heard of deer not withstanding) If putting your kickstand down and turning off your camera is instinctual then so can hauling ass back to the pit. What would you do to help a fallen rider anyway? Simply moving a crash victim wrong could end their life of put them in a chair so leave it to the medical staff anything else, you are just in the way.

See you guys at VIR in a few weeks. Be safe.

 

[flynlow69]

anyone have an update on the riders condition?

 

[rk97]

Ruhe52;256322 wrote: What would you do to help a fallen rider anyway? Simply moving a crash victim wrong could end their life of put them in a chair so leave it to the medical staff anything else, you are just in the way.

This was the main gist of the rant I typed up and never posted. If someone came to your place of employment and wanted to "help" or do your job for you, would they really be helping, or would they be in the way? Who would be better qualified to fulfill YOUR job duties, you or the helper?

The medical staff on site are professionals. Let 'em work.

 

[Meat]

dbarufaldi;256292 wrote: I disagree about this approach. The whole point of having the line,aside for it being the fastest way around the track, is to provide the goal or expectation that all riders will behave predictably, and every rider knows where they should be placing him/herself on the track. If riders were to take your approach, every rider at a different pace would be someplace different on the exit. That is dangerous, IMO. I think it is smarter to teach a "correct" line, and teach everyone to stay on the line regardless of pace.

Dan B

I think this is true to a point. Where is gets dangerous and unpredictable is when a rider comes into a corner mid-track (which is the fastest line in some places) then suddenly adjusts his line 20 feet to the left.

Another place it creates danger is also on corner exit. If you aren't carrying enough speed to take you out to the edge of the track but you end up steering to the edge of the track on a different arc (line) that is not so good either. Again, unpredictable.

Those 2 places represent 2 excellent places to pass, corner entry and corner exit. Both places, holding a predictable line is important.

Not everyone is on the exact same line all the time for very good reasons, one of which is the race (aka protective) line is different from a qualifying (fastest way possible) line. Just to name one, there are others.

 

[Godfather]

Learning Experience

Brothers and Sisters,

I will never talk BAD about any group, orginazition, club, association, etc.... that will give us a chance to get on the track! All in all I have only ridden with NESBA and TPM since returning to the states after being in Italy for 23 years. The track days here are tame compared to the track days in Italy! In Italy every day at the track is an OPEN TRACK day. You go onto the track when you want and you come off when you want. There are no "B" Group, "I" Group or "A" Groups.

What I take away from this is an EDUCATION.

Now I know that I don't need to be on the far left going into 7, and sometimes the outside becomes the inside, like turn 1 going to turn 2 at VIR (yes, I'm guilty). I had a great weekend with this org and will continue to partake in their events because IT'S TRACK TIME and I feel I'm not in danger.

One thing that does puzzle me is when people come to the track "JUST TO MAKE A MOVIE"... They ride stupid and they do stupid
S#1t because they want to impress their friends or signifant other with the video! Get real? A freaking camer on you head when you're running 150+ down the front strait??? Wow! I don't understand it??

Mike Ruhe! I PROPOSE A NEW RULE! NO DUMBA$$E$ with helmet cams!!! even if you said NO NEW RULES!!!

I can't wait to see my NESBA brothers and sisters at Patriot and North this month!

R/
Godfather

 

[ROCKIT]

Just wanted to add what I heard about this vid: the guy in front lost his brakes going into 7, lever went all the way down nothing. He pumped them and they came back so much so that he locked the front and went down.
Makes brake maintenance seem really really important!

 

[maxpr1]

barry38;256160 wrote: There is a vast difference between "riding the line" and generating the velocity to actually need the entire width of the racetrack from entry to exit. You can have a B rider who is dead on the race line, but running 30 second slower lap times than an A rider.

The bottom line is it's the responsibility of rider who is doing the overtaking to make a clean pass, and must remember that the rider they are attempting to pass is entitled to use the the entire width of the racetrack. If everyone is on the race line, that is, using the entire width of the racetrack, they are predicitable, so you don't have to guess whether you should pass on the inside or outside. Remember, if you choose to pass a rider on the outside approach a corner, and they come over on you, it's 100% your fault, not thiers.

:agree::agree:
I am sorry but I need a confirmation on this one. We have always been told to "Ride the Line" That this will show us the proper way around the track as well as make us more predictable for the other riders. But in the same token, I have cought my self needlessly "Driving" to the line even though my speed/momentum did not carry me there. So I ask, what is the right thing to do? Do you ride the line, or do you make it up based on your experience, speed, and need? Wondering whether or not I left enough room for someone to pass me I believe should be secondary

I do not mean to come across as ignorant but by biggest fear while riding at the track is to have someone come up my tail pipe because "I was holding them up" I try to be as smooth and consistent as I can but I also realize that it is not completely up to me.

I am not the fastest guy out there by any means, but I have learned my lessons the hard way. I check my pride at the door each and every time, and I realized that being able to load up at the end of the day with exactly what I came with is a success onto itself, the ear to ear smile is also a good indicator as well

 

[JRA]

The line you are riding is your line - whether it's the right line or not- and the overtaking rider has the responsibility of getting around you cleanly, withing the rules of your group, and without spooking you or making you alter your line. The caveat is that you need to make sure that you don't make any sudden moves to alter that line.

Get a CR to help you learn the line and then try to ride it consistently. If that line takes you white line to white line, even if you really aren't carrying enough speed to need all of the track that's fine. As you get faster you'll need more track anyway. To the guys who see this a problem, you just really need to work on overtaking. This has never, ever been an issue for me, and I can go out there and work my way though traffic without any problems. I have always tried to use my time on the racetrack to focus on learning, and learning how to pass is part of that. I have no special talent for riding a motorcycle so most likely you aren't any different than me. The only difference between me and some other riders who have a problem with this is experience; I learned how to do it and so can you.

When I see that a rider is taking a line that is setting him up to use all of the track on the exit I just plan my pass to go by on the inside at the exit (withing the rules of the group. Yes, you can time your pass so that you both are straight up and down), I call it an outside, inside pass. The opposite is true when a rider is holding a tight line through a turn; then I use an inside, outside pass. You adjust your own line to either hold a tight line, or take a wide exit based on what the rider in front of you is doing. You can judge that almost 100% of the time.

 

[barry38]

I agree with everything John said. If you are riding the line you are predictable. If you are approaching a corner on basically any track, right in the middle, you are unpredictible. As the overtaking rider, I have to make a decision based on what you may or may not do, are you going to hold your present line, or are you going to swing out to the edge of the track as you approach the corner? If I make the wrong decision, we all have a bad day.

It also came up here about entering the race track. In my opinion, it is completely and utterly unsafe to enter the racetrack and get on the race line if you are not up to the pace of the group in which you arre riding. At VIR, you should not even consider going to the outside of the race track until you have gone through turns 1 and 2. I know I was topped out in 6th on my R6 approaching turn 1. About 155-160 Mph. The last thing I wanted to see is a guycoming out of the pits at 80 mph coming onto the race line, You can ask Bubba Zanetti about the ass chewing I gave him a few years ago at Summint Main for doing this. And he's a good friend of mine.

One of the things I used to preach when I did the B meetings was there was nothing happening behind you that mattered. You are not holding anyone up, you are not in the way. Be on line and be predictable. If the person behind you is faster than you, they will get past you. Don't ever look behind you, ride like someone is building a wall in front of you. Ride YOUR ride.

 

[maxpr1]

Thanks, I appreciate the input

 

[pearsonm]

dbarufaldi;256292 wrote: I think it is smarter to teach a "correct" line, and teach everyone to stay on the line regardless of pace.

Assuming only one line is correct all the time, things get a little complicated in your local I group with its varied mix of skills and equipment. Disregarding the one-line limitation you have riders on smaller bikes trying to keep their speed up on the outside together with riders on larger machines who can take a more squared-off approach closer to the inside. As said in another post, all are entitled to the entire track.

There's at least one school that teaches learning a track from the inside out, meaning systematically venturing further out as your speed allows (while maintaining apexes, of course). I don’t know how many times I’ve listened to instructors explain how they each take significantly different paths through the same corner. Riding line-to-line no matter what your pace with no regard for anyone else is something I haven’t heard elsewhere.

 

[noobinacan]

barry38;256424 wrote:

It also came up here about entering the race track. In my opinion, it is completely and utterly unsafe to enter the racetrack and get on the race line if you are not up to the pace of the group in which you arre riding. At VIR, you should not even consider going to the outside of the race track until you have gone through turns 1 and 2. I know I was topped out in 6th on my R6 approaching turn 1. About 155-160 Mph. The last thing I wanted to see is a guycoming out of the pits at 80 mph coming onto the race line, You can ask Bubba Zanetti about the ass chewing I gave him a few years ago at Summint Main for doing this. And he's a good friend of mine.
.

you know that happened at VIR-N weekend last year , Geoff May was out there coming in at 185+ something and someone came out and right in the middle of the track...was a very close call

 

[Ruhe52]

Riding line-to-line no matter what your pace with no regard for anyone else is something I haven’t heard elsewhere.

No one said anything about "no regard" for anyone. Point is how can you regard anything behind you that you don't know about.

Is it your belief that people should ID themselves as slower than you and stay out of your way? The point is ride a consistent line whatever it is. There are many ways around a track. When I was in B group I remember Wells and Lewis riding my ass for not using all of the track on exit. Pointed out that turn in and apex were spot on set up for the corner was good but I had a ton of track on the exit. All day long this went on. Finally I went and sat with Todd in between sessions and we talked set up and suspension and what I was doing out there. We concluded I was just scrubbing too much speed and not getting on the gas soon enough. Next day went out and applied what we talked about and while I found myself off the apex a little at first my exit line moved out. So fast forward to now and CRing. Similar issue with a rider and while we talked about it and worked together I noticed good pace set up entry apex but he was not standing the bike up and was carrying way more lean angle than needed on exit and would be about mid track. Point is everyone is working on something. There will be all sorts of reasons for where people are on the track. The one thing that keeps people from getting together is no ABRUPT changes to our line. IE Set up left side of the track going into say 1 at VIR N you don't just jump to the inside line. Why? Because there may be someone coming up the inside line. Moving over 14 feet at the last min= abrupt line change.

Yes different power bikes are a factor as well. A TZ is going to take a very different line vs a 1000. If those or any of these factors cause an issue for an overtaking rider (and I am not looking to insult anyone... well maybe a little) perhaps the issue lies with you the overtaking rider. Back off study make a plan then execute.

Let me introduce the concept of "What if"

What if the rider I am 5 inches off their rear wheel checks up or has a mechanical or shits his suit? Do I possess the skills to avoid any of that? Do I have an out?

What if the rider who I have never ridden with swings left to go right and I am overtaking? Am I really passing or just barely faster thus taking tooooo long to get it done?


Oh and the great thing about this sport is another rider will see what I have posted as totally outlandish. Opinions and assholes are the only thing that equal out in this world. I'll stand by my record of safe days.

 

[pearsonm]

Ruhe52;256470 wrote: Is it your belief that people should ID themselves as slower than you and stay out of your way?

[sarcasm on] Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. God - you’re the only person who got it! [sarcasm off]

Assuming you've read my posts - and from your rant I highly doubt it - if that's your understanding of what I'm describing as a problem in the I group then most likely you're not going to get it.

What-if's? I love what-if's. What if you pack a grid full of bikes from SV650’s to litre bikes with riders ranging from just-bumped-to-I to guys who should probably be in A and force them all on one, single, ‘correct’ line?

I’ve got my own record of no-incident track days, thank you. I credit part of it to realizing that at my speed I don’t need to use 100.02% of the track (even if I had the speed, riding that way leaves no room for error), there’s probably always someone on my outside trying to get around and that there are some riders you just need to pit-in and let go. Oh, and most importantly, if I miss an intended apex then I'm going too damn fast so back it off and tighten it up.