S
SlivitlyScoxy
im here
that was a fun read
that was a fun read
E15 approved
- Thread starter dlockhart5x
- Start date
Bottlecap75
New Member
Hey Judy-- shouldnt have to re-map for 100 octane. I'm running "low lead 100" aviation fuel in EVERYTHING except my truck. Mapping might get you a pony or two, but its not necessary. Its kinda like running 93 in a car thats set up to run regular 87. Couple reasons I use it: There's no ethanol, all my bikes are stock, and its cheaper than race fuel. I'm paying $4.50 / gal at the local small airport-- I'd say give it a shot- two tankfuls and you'll know
HondaGalToo
Control Rider
Thanks for the info. Not sure if I have a local small airport around here, but good info, thanks.
Gorecki
Member
I don't know man, low lead 100 still has lead in it and the valves and seats, plugs weren't designed to handle ANY lead. Buildup is going to occur and likely cause problems in time.
In anycase, I get the impression they're phasing out 100LL for 94UL which is basically the same as Sunoco's 94 pump gas, less the situations where Ethanol is involved.
In anycase, I get the impression they're phasing out 100LL for 94UL which is basically the same as Sunoco's 94 pump gas, less the situations where Ethanol is involved.
kawaholic
Member
yeah and don't forget the DECREASE in mileage you get running this crap. along with all the damage it does to your motor and the entire fuel system in vehicles that aren't designed to run on it...:argh:
i heard about this stuff on another forum. no affiliation, ymmv, blah, blah, blah...just passing along some info on a product that seems to be working for me.
http://mystarbrite.com/startron//content/view/100/136/lang,en/
over the past few years my mileage has dropped off significantly in my truck, 30-40 miles a tank full. i've run 4 or 5 tanks of "gas" with this stuff and i'm seeing my mileage come back. my last tank got me an extra 20 miles from what it has been, so i've cut that 40 mile loss in half. i was skeptical as i don't usually believe all the hype that goes into pushing all these different additives and snake oils but i've become a believer in this stuff. it's a little spendy at $1 an oz. but i think it's worth it to combat all the negative effects this crap they're ramming down our throats has on our wallets and our vehicles. along with all the wonderful things they say it does to neutralize all the harmful effects of the ethanol laced gas, it's a fuel stabilizer too. i'm going to start using it in every thing i own.
read up on it and give it a try. wally world carries it in the marine section. an 8oz. bottle is 8 bucks and it treats 128 gallons of gas.
HondaGalToo
Control Rider
Thanks for the info, kawa! I, too, have been looking at additives to combat this shitty gasahol. I got some stuff at Pep Boys...the marine version of the good old Stabil, and some Seafoam. I threw a bottle of Seafoam in my truck on the last fill-up. I think I'll keep doing that and see if the mileage improves. I'll also look for this stuff you've mentioned. I think the ones I got are similar...but I'm not positive.
thumpin250
New Member
Well some of us Illinois folk have got the answer to your ethanol woes. Blender pumps are starting to make there appearance so you can choose how much ethanol you want to complain about running 
Bubba Zanetti
Member
The Startron is good stuff. Never had problems with the VFR's carbs.
BZ
Mikey75702
Member
I know that the ethanol fuel doesn't like to sit. I put some stabil in my tank when I out it up for the winter, fired the bike up last week for a bit to make sure the battery was good. Went to start it the other day to sync the throttle bodies and do some other maintenance and it wouldnt idle. Rev it up, and it popped and backfired like it was lean or had some water in it. Drained the fuel, got some non ethanol leaded race fuel and the bike ran great. Now I think I should run race fuel from now on so I don't have to deal with this again.
dlockhart5x
New Member
VP has come out with a line of fuel for small engines due to the ethanol problem
They are finding a big market with first responders who need the tools work in life or death situations.
http://seffuels.com/learn.aspx
They are finding a big market with first responders who need the tools work in life or death situations.
http://seffuels.com/learn.aspx
madriders86
New Member
All my SV needs is 87 octane dammit. Is that too much to ask?
Do not want more octane. Only the amount that is required.
Do not want more octane. Only the amount that is required.
madriders86
New Member
Do people not understand that octane is a combustion INHIBITOR?
Mikey75702
Member
Higher octane isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can have too much, but it can help make more power depending on how the bike is tuned. If you tune it for the higher octane (within reason for your engine) it can help. But just putting it in your standard bike that is tuned for regular pump gas won't help.
Gorecki
Member
Just don't agree with that. Now the cost vs power benefit may be argued but even a 4 stroke lawn mower will benefit from a higher than minimum octane when tasked. The combustion stability results in a smoother firing process causing the rotating assemblies to function collectively more efficiently. There is less destabilization resulting in a more optimized power potential.
I look at it like this, say you're in a boat going across a lake. On smooth water you can go 30 MPH (peak performance) while crossing wakes, waves you can only go 25 MPH. This induced resistance and destabilization causes a loss in peak potential. Higher octane helps assure this peak potential.
Just my take on it.
Mikey75702
Member
But if it is tuned to run on 87 octane and you put 89 in it, that changes where, and how fast the fuel burns in the cylinder. If it burns at the wrong degree it will loose power. Yes it is smoother, because the piston is already on its downward stroke when the fuel burns. The best power is made when you get full ignition quickly at 0 deg. tdc. So they set the timing to match fuel used. Best fuel used is determined by compression, cylinder design and a few other things. Some engines will resist detonation better then others so those use a lower octane fuel. If you were to up the octane rating, you would have to increase spark timing and you would still have a slower burn, resulting in less power.Gorecki;174005 wrote: Just don't agree with that. Now the cost vs power benefit may be argued but even a 4 stroke lawn mower will benefit from a higher than minimum octane when tasked. The combustion stability results in a smoother firing process causing the rotating assemblies to function collectively more efficiently. There is less destabilization resulting in a more optimized power potential.
I look at it like this, say you're in a boat going across a lake. On smooth water you can go 30 MPH (peak performance) while crossing wakes, waves you can only go 25 MPH. This induced resistance and destabilization causes a loss in peak potential. Higher octane helps assure this peak potential.
Just my take on it.
Gorecki
Member
Mikey, I’m not a subject matter expert but I just can’t agree. Just because an engine is designed to accommodate for a US fuel that is more prone to pre-ignition / detonation than a higher octane most certainly DOES NOT mean it will run more poorly or lose power because of it. Octane differences have absolutely nothing to do with how fast the fuel burns, how hot the fuel burns or how long fuel burns...they are exactly the same in that regard. It’s about resisting detonation, nothing more! Higher octane fuels certainly allow for more spark advance and higher compression because of being less prone to detonation but that doesn’t mean putting that same fuel in a machine that is not designed for high performance (greater compress, cylinder pressure, spark advance) is going to suffer in performance. It will operate in the least the same, but likely slightly better. Cylinder temperatures will likely be a little lower vs. the lower octane because of the more controlled combustion process.
Many moons ago I had a late ‘60s VW and that damn thing would run on cheap vodka and cooking oil, but of course it was a very accommodating engine design, ridiculously low compression, a glorified lawn mower frankly. But it always ran *better* and chirped harder on premium fuels. I will occasionally use runtime diagnostics on my current car just to see how things are working and I am always amazed at how much the timing is automatically advanced when using a 93 AKI vs. an 87 AKI but it makes complete and total sense. The PCM is ‘optimizing’ based on what it’s being told by the knock sensor, because it can, not because it has to.
So please don’t take any of this as confrontational, I just don’t agree and would be most certainly be willing to be proven wrong. I love to learn about this stuff! I do mean proven specifically because I’ve experienced way too many wrencher dudes who live and believe wives tails that simply aren’t true.
Cool? Peace!
Many moons ago I had a late ‘60s VW and that damn thing would run on cheap vodka and cooking oil, but of course it was a very accommodating engine design, ridiculously low compression, a glorified lawn mower frankly. But it always ran *better* and chirped harder on premium fuels. I will occasionally use runtime diagnostics on my current car just to see how things are working and I am always amazed at how much the timing is automatically advanced when using a 93 AKI vs. an 87 AKI but it makes complete and total sense. The PCM is ‘optimizing’ based on what it’s being told by the knock sensor, because it can, not because it has to.
So please don’t take any of this as confrontational, I just don’t agree and would be most certainly be willing to be proven wrong. I love to learn about this stuff! I do mean proven specifically because I’ve experienced way too many wrencher dudes who live and believe wives tails that simply aren’t true.
Cool? Peace!
Mikey75702
Member
First off I want to talk about your thoughts on a knock sensor. Your engine doesn't advance timing based on a knock sensor. It uses the knock sensor to RETARD timing. So if it is retarding the timing on regular fuel then it was tuned to run a higher octane from the get go.
As far as octane and the changes it does to gas.... I am fairly certain it also slows the speed in which it burns. It should still burn at the same or higher temp... but I do believe an inherited trait of detonation resistance, is the increased resistance to detonate(aka, burn). If it were to burn as quickly as a lower octane fuel it would still detonate with the same traits as a lower grade fuel. The issue with higher compression is that it raises the cylinder temps during the compression stroke. So a lower octane fuel can self combust (like a diesel) in a high compression engine. The issue is, that without direct injection you can't control when combustion occurs (this is why diesels are direct injected) so gas engines use a spark plug to ignite the fuel. It sends a spark BEFORE top dead center so that the fuel can ignite as the piston changes direction. If a higher octane fuel has a higher flash point ( resistance to detonation) it would take longer for the same spark, and the same amount of fuel to combust fully then a lower grade fuel. This is why the spark is advanced further with the higher grade fuel. Now i could be wrong with all this, but I am pretty sure I understood the subject in drivability class.
As far as octane and the changes it does to gas.... I am fairly certain it also slows the speed in which it burns. It should still burn at the same or higher temp... but I do believe an inherited trait of detonation resistance, is the increased resistance to detonate(aka, burn). If it were to burn as quickly as a lower octane fuel it would still detonate with the same traits as a lower grade fuel. The issue with higher compression is that it raises the cylinder temps during the compression stroke. So a lower octane fuel can self combust (like a diesel) in a high compression engine. The issue is, that without direct injection you can't control when combustion occurs (this is why diesels are direct injected) so gas engines use a spark plug to ignite the fuel. It sends a spark BEFORE top dead center so that the fuel can ignite as the piston changes direction. If a higher octane fuel has a higher flash point ( resistance to detonation) it would take longer for the same spark, and the same amount of fuel to combust fully then a lower grade fuel. This is why the spark is advanced further with the higher grade fuel. Now i could be wrong with all this, but I am pretty sure I understood the subject in drivability class.
madriders86
New Member
Well yes, agree 100%. All I was saying it that there is no benefit to higher octane in a motor that isn't tuned for it.
As for what gorecki is saying, I don't really agree, but I'm no expert either. My only take on what you're saying is that yes, there may be no measurable detriment to performance by using a higher octane.
My rsx-s, for example, calls for 91 octane. I put 93 in it because that's what's available around here, and I doub that there would be a noticeable difference if I were able to get 91 at the pump. If my car was the base model and required only 87, I'd be pissing away my money to fill it up with "premium."
And just to clarify, I'm only basing my opinions on research that I have done on my own from sources that are, as best as I can tell, credible.
Bottlecap75
New Member
Quick note: DO NOT run Low-Lead 100 aviation fuel if you are sporting factory exhaust with the Cat still attached...converters really hate that stuff
As for deposits, no issues so far, but I also add Yamaha Ring-Free as well-- intake tract looks spankin clean- better than when running good 'ol 93 pump gas for the first 3500 street miles
As for deposits, no issues so far, but I also add Yamaha Ring-Free as well-- intake tract looks spankin clean- better than when running good 'ol 93 pump gas for the first 3500 street miles