Trailer Questions

[rchase]

I'm upgrading tow vehicles and moving from a big heavy frame based vehicle to a more modern vehicle with a unibody. As a result I'm loosing some of my more than ample 6500# towing capacity.

I have a 2013 model Covered Wagon 6x10 single axle tall version trailer with no brakes. Does anybody off hand know the empty weight of that? That would be massively helpful just as a basis of calculation. I'll probably still hit the scales with it fully loaded just to be sure.

I'm going to have to reconfigure the way the bikes are in the trailer as they are probably bit far forward and I'm concerned about the tongue weight fully loaded. I went from 500# tongue and 6500# towing capacity to a vehicle with 200# tongue and 4500# capacity. I plan on weighing the tongue before I start moving stuff around.

Overall the trailer tows amazingly well with the current vehicle. It's often like it's not even back there.

If anybody has the weight of the trailer that would be helpful. As well any advice would be helpful as well. I was sort of an idiot when I first bought my trailer and measured absolutely nothing and just randomly threw everything together last minute. The trailer literally was a last minute impulse buy as I passed a trailer sales place on the way to pick up a rental trailer. Hours before I was supposed to be at the track I was raiding the home depot and cycle gear for parts I would need and got everything mounted and got the bikes loaded and left.

I have yet to take delivery of the car and want to make sure things are going to work and be safe before I do. I'll still have the other vehicle around just in case as well if I run into issues. I tried my luck the last time and don't want to end up unlucky this time.

Thanks in advance!

 

[kbro45]

I don't know the exact weight of your trailer, but that size trailer is usually over 1000lbs. You mentioned "bikes" so assuming 2 bikes plus gas and gear you will be over 2000lbs. The tongue weight of the trailer alone will be over 100lbs. Depending on how you load it, your tongue weight will probably be right around 200lbs. You will be at the limits of a class 1 hitch.

What is the new vehicle you are towing with? I would be concerned about not have trailer brakes if it is a small vehicle.

 

[rchase]

Thanks for the reply. I have been doing some calculations based on a 1200# empty trailer and it's close. I found a 6x12 similar to mine that was that weight for sale online. It's probably slightly heavier than mine so there's some built in cushion in the calculations. I'm still loaded from my last track day so I'll hit the scales here soon to see where I really am with a full load.

The vehicle I'm considering is a BMW GT which is an insane crossover that BMW sells (think of a slightly lower and longer X6). It's big car (longer and taller than a 7series) and weighs about 4900#. If the calculations don't work out I'll probably go for an X5 or X6 but I really like the GT because it's such an unusual vehicle. I just want something as comfortable as my current tow vehicle that gets better than 7-9mpg for longer trips. Stopping constantly for fuel sucks!

 

[borislav]

Thanks for the reply. I have been doing some calculations based on a 1200# empty trailer and it's close. I found a 6x12 similar to mine that was that weight for sale online. It's probably slightly heavier than mine so there's some built in cushion in the calculations. I'm still loaded from my last track day so I'll hit the scales here soon to see where I really am with a full load.

The vehicle I'm considering is a BMW GT which is an insane crossover that BMW sells (think of a slightly lower and longer X6). It's big car (longer and taller than a 7series) and weighs about 4900#. If the calculations don't work out I'll probably go for an X5 or X6 but I really like the GT because it's such an unusual vehicle. I just want something as comfortable as my current tow vehicle that gets better than 7-9mpg for longer trips. Stopping constantly for fuel sucks!

Most of new 1/2 ton pick up trucks WILL be very comfortable, have way better fuel milage than your current tow wehicke, have +/- 10000 lbs towing capacity and be CHEAPER than BMW!
Not a sermon just a thought!

 

[borislav]

... stupid ass phone, I ment VEHICLE!

 

[Otto Man]

I'd put a piece of plywood under the tongue jack and put a bathroom scale on it. That'll tell you how much your tongue weight is. I would DEFINITELY suggest wheel chocking the trailer, along with putting a jack stand or two on the back part of the frame, in the even the trailer decides to flip back on you, but with the proper tongue weight, that shouldn't happen. 99% chance your trailer's axle max weight capacity is 3,500lbs, so in regards to trailer weight, you should be good. What's your current tow vehicle?

Tongue weight and sway issues towing a brick in the wind trailer with a low profile car like that would be my biggest concern. I am definitely not one of those worry warts that think you need a diesel dually to tow a 6x10 trailer, but I will say this - you'll never hear anyone complain that their tow vehicle feels "too stable" when towing. I am not quite sure what I think about towing an enclosed trailer (even a smaller one like yours) with a unibody car. I realize the X5, Honda Ridgeline, etc are also unibody, but I would imagine given their unibody design is a bit more robust (with higher towing capacity to go with it)

Hopefully BMW finally did away with the cheesy, cheap wood grain interior option on the GT...

 

[rchase]

Not the first time I have heard this. Probably won't be the last either. It's really good advice too and makes great sense.

I'll agree the trucks are comfy but you do get what you pay for. You don't get a lot of the options you can on the uuberbarges like radar guided cruise control, 20 way heated and cooled comfort seats with massage function, Bang & Olufsen audio or surround view cameras that let you see a 360 degree view above the vehicle that make even the most tight parking job a cakewalk. The trucks are nice but they aren't designed quite like a vehicle that's intended purpose in life was to blast through hundreds of miles of driving and allow the driver to step out completely refreshed. When you aren't towing with one of the trucks you still have to contend with it's truck limitations like handling and cargo security.

I really really wanted to convince myself that a truck might be a better option. I went to all of the websites and researched them and have driven a many of them. What I found though was when you started adding options to make these vehicles more livable they all doubled in price. Most of them as well package their options in a way where they force you to buy a whole bunch stuff you aren't interested in to get common comfort options like leather and navigation.

No vehicle out there made is not without it's compromises. With the BMW my compromise is towing capacity, service costs and price. For those compromises I get better handling, the best possible comfort and a vehicle that's better at a lot of other tasks than just towing. The BMW's compromises work better for me.

I'm also a BMW rider and my two bikes get a big 4 wheeled brother to keep them company at the hotel at night.

 

[rchase]

Hey Otto Man

The current tow vehicle is an elderly Range Rover Autobiography. It's a great tow vehicle and is surprisingly reliable and massively comfortable and I'll definitely keep it as a backup and for my off road needs. It's big issue is fuel economy. It's big V8 chews through fuel. I get 7-9mpg and often have to stop for fuel to get to tracks that are in my home state. and I live in Georgia and not Texas. For longer distances the fuel stops get to be a massive pain in the butt as it seems to have a penchant for picking the seediest areas possible to start running low on fuel.

I'm glad you mentioned trailer sway as that's something I have considered myself. The Rover is very tall and breaks up some of that wind but the GT is lower and more aerodynamic so sway might become an issue. I have already looked at some of the anti-sway accessories that you can add to the tongue to combat that if it becomes a problem. Structurally the X5 is based on a BMW 5series chassis while the GT is based on the heavier BMW 7series chassis even with it's 5series model designation. It also has a longer wheelbase but even with those features it's still a lower tow rating than the X5 likely because of car based suspension technology. Curb weight wise the GT and X5 are equal give or take based on models and options. The GT has a very car like appearance but when you see one parked next to a standard 5series it makes it look tiny because of the scale differences. The car like looks are mostly a visual illusion. It's more SUV than anything else.

As for wood I'm a fan myself. My Rover looks as though I hit a chest of drawers on the freeway with all of it's hand finished burled walnut trim. The GT has some tasteful wood options. I'm probably going to go with the Anthracite dark wood trim to tone down the wood factor. The chest of drawers thing works on a British vehicle but in a BMW I'll agree it's not optimal.

As for the trailer itself with the bikes inside I don't have any tipping problems at all due to the way it's currently loaded with the bikes slightly forward over the axles. I may move the bikes rearward depending on the tongue weight in the future. I currently use Baxley chocks with two tie down straps but for rearward mounting Pittbull's would work best. I have a variety of weird bikes that would make buying Pittbulls for all of them cost prohibitive. Having a set of rear mounted Pitbulls and the Baxleys might give me some flexibility with altering tongue weight on the fly as well and I might even try a "halfway" configuration with one forward mounted and one rearward mounted bike. I already keep some of my cargo in the back of the Range Rover and likely will continue to do this for weight distribution. All of my stands warmers and tools are kept in the back. It's not much weight but every pound counts when you are closer to the limits.

 

[Otto Man]

Just keep in mind your towing limits of the GT if you're hauling a variety of bikes - the wheel chock locations might not be ideal for the bikes you're hauling (cruisers, sport bikes, etc). If your situation allowed, it sounds like keeping your current tow rig for hauling duty and getting the GT for a daily driver would be the ticket. The GT will take a huge hit on fuel economy with an enclosed trailer hooked to it.

 

[wmhjr]

You guys are all bringing up good points - point that I considered and pushed me into my current position. I have a few different type trailers, including a heavy built open trailer that I used for bikes for a number of years, and my current 24' enclosed that I now use for track days as well as other purposes.

I had a bunch of different vehicles I tried using to pull the open trailer, to be honest, including some cross-over type SUVs. I also happen to be a big BMW fan, having owned a few. I also owned a 1/2 ton gasser truck (2000 Chevy), which I mistakenly thought would do OK pulling the 24' trailer. I ended up going a different route, and picking up a well used 3/4T Diesel to use only for bad winter driving (4x4) and for pulling and other misc "utility" purposes. It took me months to find a very very reasonably priced truck, which I bought from 1000 miles away, flew in and drove home. But I no longer worry about whether or not I'm going to have trouble pulling anything, and my "daily drivers" can be exactly what I want - without having to compromise. Yes, it also costs more in registration and insurance, but there are deals out there. And best of all, I get about 15mpg, pulling 10k at 75mph. If it's really hilly, my mileage "might" drop to 13mpg, but usually I set the cruise to around 75mph, and I can drive from Pittsburgh to NCBike with one short refuel. If you're not familiar, that means driving through a bunch of mountains. The truck is not a beauty queen. It's a utility truck. 5.9 cummins, 6spd tranny.

If you have space to keep something, you might want to consider a less than perfect used truck, and you can go wild with whatever BMW you want. Personally, I don't want to pull anything with newer dual clutch, etc, transmissions. The cost of repair is friggin ridiculous. Put it this way. The cost to replace (because they don't fix them, they replace them) the dual clutch tranny in my car would be more than half of what I paid for my truck used.

 

[Otto Man]

You guys are all bringing up good points - point that I considered and pushed me into my current position. I have a few different type trailers, including a heavy built open trailer that I used for bikes for a number of years, and my current 24' enclosed that I now use for track days as well as other purposes.

I had a bunch of different vehicles I tried using to pull the open trailer, to be honest, including some cross-over type SUVs. I also happen to be a big BMW fan, having owned a few. I also owned a 1/2 ton gasser truck (2000 Chevy), which I mistakenly thought would do OK pulling the 24' trailer. I ended up going a different route, and picking up a well used 3/4T Diesel to use only for bad winter driving (4x4) and for pulling and other misc "utility" purposes. It took me months to find a very very reasonably priced truck, which I bought from 1000 miles away, flew in and drove home. But I no longer worry about whether or not I'm going to have trouble pulling anything, and my "daily drivers" can be exactly what I want - without having to compromise. Yes, it also costs more in registration and insurance, but there are deals out there. And best of all, I get about 15mpg, pulling 10k at 75mph. If it's really hilly, my mileage "might" drop to 13mpg, but usually I set the cruise to around 75mph, and I can drive from Pittsburgh to NCBike with one short refuel. If you're not familiar, that means driving through a bunch of mountains. The truck is not a beauty queen. It's a utility truck. 5.9 cummins, 6spd tranny.

If you have space to keep something, you might want to consider a less than perfect used truck, and you can go wild with whatever BMW you want. Personally, I don't want to pull anything with newer dual clutch, etc, transmissions. The cost of repair is friggin ridiculous. Put it this way. The cost to replace (because they don't fix them, they replace them) the dual clutch tranny in my car would be more than half of what I paid for my truck used.

I agree 100% and have a very similar experience. Had a 20' trailer I tried towing with a Tahoe...bad experience. 6 MPG towing with only a couple bikes loaded in the trailer. Got my current truck, a 04.5 Ram 2500 with the 5.9. Towing the same enclosed trailer, I got 14 MPG, and the truck hardly knew it was back there. I get 10 MPG towing my 14,000lb, 32' 5th wheel - still more than the Tahoe got towing the enclosed trailer. Truck is basically a garage queen since I got my beater car for DD duties. I put less than 4,000 miles on my truck last year, 85% of that from towing the toy hauler around. No longer have to deal with parking the truck at work on a daily basis, and I get double the MPG in my beater car (not to mention 87 is still cheaper than diesel).

 

[rchase]

Some good points in general. I have yet to commit to a purchase and have lots of time over the winter to "do the math" and pick something. Lots of stuff to consider.

 

[motorkas]

Another question is how many days are you planning on doing this year (next year. . .ect) and how far are the tracks from where you live that'll you'll be riding. The one common theme you'll find - the more days you do (and the more tracks you ride) the more you're likely to end up with a dedicated tow vehicle. Personally, unless it was for 1-2 track days that were less than 100 miles from my house, I'd never consider a GT for a tow vehicle (totally different from considering it as a DD).

 

[rchase]

Motorkas,

The type of rider I am is something I considered as well. I do a lot of days but I'm not a "serious" track day rider like others are. I'm riding for the enjoyment factor and little else. Both of my "track" bikes are still in road bodywork and likely will remain that way. Currently my track days are mostly in my home state of Georgia but I occasionally will pop one state over to Barber (2 hours away) to ride there. I did 16 days in 2015 where I towed to the track.

I'm actually reconsidering the GT. There's very few hitch options for that vehicle and the one I was considering had some rather catastrophic failures. Not the vehicle but the actual hitch itself. The last thing I want is to have issues like that. I'll have to do some looking at what else is out there.

I'll tell you one thing though. The car industry does not make it easy for you to part with your money. I have a feeling I might get disgusted with the whole process and make the local Land Rover mechanic quite a happy fellow.

 

[motorkas]

I hear yeah with the car industry! For the amount of days you do and the size of your trailer (I'm assuming you roll solo quite a bit) and where you live, I'd seriously consider getting a beater 1/2 ton 4x2 reg cab and get what ever you want for a daily (since you're a BMW guy, any of the turbo'd 3,4,5,6 series would get my vote.

If you have any plans to go bigger on the trailer, I'd start seriously considering 3/4-1 tons. For what its worth - if you go in that direction - just go diesel and do not consider gas (unless you know you'll drive 55-60 the whole time) - I recently rented a F250 gas (brand new with the 6.2 V8) and hated it (got better gas mileage with my expedition and enjoyed towing so much more with it as well). . . .and that was with a 7x16 enclosed trailer. . .my next truck will definitely be a diesel (the torque while pulling on any hill is sooooooo worth it)

Either way good luck!!!!

 

[Mike:p]

I'm considering a 6x10 enclosed trailer to do 2, two day weekends a year (hopefully I can do more as time goes by)and I hope my Tacoma can pull it without too much stress on it. My nearest track is 4 hours away. It will be so much better than putting the bike in the bed of my old truck. A 94 Ford Ranger 4 cylinder extended cab with 260,000+ miles. I take out the passenger seat before I leave home so there is enough room to sleep in the cab on the floor.

 

[rchase]

Motorkas,

I'm probably going to look at an X5. I liked the GT really because it was an oddball but life may just be easier going the X5 route. It's really similar to the GT anyway just taller and with a little more space in the back. The inline 6 turbos are amazing engines. There's a tuning add on you can buy that plugs right in that's good for 90hp and 90ftlbs of torque. Considering they start at a conservatively rated 300hp 300lbft that's pretty amazing since you don't have to even get your hand greasy to install it. I really really love the V8's BMW has but the 6 makes the most sense long term since you can get 10hp away so easily.

Mike p

An enclosed trailer is really the way to go. I rented an open trailer for my first track day and it was a bit of a nightmare. There was no good way to lash down the bikes since it was a rental and my bikes got some rock pecks on the front bodywork. What's worse is one of the bikes shifted on the way back home and did not fall over (it would have been much better if it had fallen over). When I returned back home and returned the trailer I discovered a nasty crack in the frame from all of the pressure supporting the bike at the awkward angle when it was hanging there by one tie strap. Even though it was an older R6 it was not fun tracking down a donor bike and the labor involved to replace the frame. I make it a habit to check the bikes after the first 100 miles and make sure nothing has shifted now. A good learning lesson since now something like that would be a very painful insurance claim with the bikes I enjoy now.

An enclosed trailer protects the bikes, gives you a place to get dressed and undressed when it's raining and can be equipped with A/C for those hot summer days so you can escape the heat. You can even camp in the back with an air mattress during the cooler months. I tried it a couple of times and don't really sleep well on an air mattress so it's the hotel for me. It's nice to have the option though.

My 6x10 is a cheapie I bought from A&A Center for $2400 brand new (they are cheaper but I went with a few add on's). A bit of paint and some shelves and it's not to bad inside. Lots of people get a lot fancier with flooring lighting and A/C systems. Mine works well for my purposes.

 

[vinny337]

Another question is how many days are you planning on doing this year (next year. . .ect) and how far are the tracks from where you live that'll you'll be riding. The one common theme you'll find - the more days you do (and the more tracks you ride) the more you're likely to end up with a dedicated tow vehicle. Personally, unless it was for 1-2 track days that were less than 100 miles from my house, I'd never consider a GT for a tow vehicle (totally different from considering it as a DD).

What up Kas!! I knew those ears would perk up when someone mentioned BMW.

 

[borislav]

I hear yeah with the car industry! For the amount of days you do and the size of your trailer (I'm assuming you roll solo quite a bit) and where you live, I'd seriously consider getting a beater 1/2 ton 4x2 reg cab and get what ever you want for a daily (since you're a BMW guy, any of the turbo'd 3,4,5,6 series would get my vote.

If you have any plans to go bigger on the trailer, I'd start seriously considering 3/4-1 tons. For what its worth - if you go in that direction - just go diesel and do not consider gas (unless you know you'll drive 55-60 the whole time) - I recently rented a F250 gas (brand new with the 6.2 V8) and hated it (got better gas mileage with my expedition and enjoyed towing so much more with it as well). . . .and that was with a 7x16 enclosed trailer. . .my next truck will definitely be a diesel (the torque while pulling on any hill is sooooooo worth it)

Either way good luck!!!!

Kas my brother...
If money is no object than diesel truck with all bells and whistles... but there is few people with that PROBLEM and (you are one of them)!
For us mortals we have to do our homework really good or at least as best as possible so when I bought my truck I knew I can't afford diesel but I bought truck that had what I wanted equipment wise and towing capability of 10000 lbs. I put it through serious test this past summer by towing SlowSteve 25'(I think that's the size of it) camper from MD to Beve through PA mountains and truck did it with out a problem.
Also what I looked into was factory performance upgrades available which is supercharger (if I need more power and torque) that would bring my truck to aprox. 520hp and 500 ftlbs of torque which is diesel truck power and torque for A LOT LESS MONEY!

 

[wmhjr]

borislav it's hard to explain to people why you can add twin superchargers and all the chips and tuning in the world but at the end of the day, you can simply not in any reasonable way make a gasser have the low rpm torque that a diesel has. Others here in N2 witnessed for example as my 5.9 diesel pulled a large enclosed trailer with multiple bikes up the exit from the paddocks at Barber - at idle. Not even a foot on the gas peddle whatsoever. A control rider was sitting next to me and could not believe it. I could have gotten out of the truck and walked next to it up the hill. I have built many many engines, and my pro-touring car makes better than 600hp and 550tq. It carries more than 500lbs torque from 2500rpm (where the dyno starts) through 7000rpm - never ever dropping. And the truck, making less hp, would pull it across the country without even breaking a sweat. The reason I trailer the car if I'm going a long distance? The truck gets more than twice the fuel economy and I can carry spare parts/tools.

The issue is the torque curve. Yes, you can bump up hp and torque (really, who cares about hp in trucks. HP is just a fabricated number that is a function of torque and rpm). It's all about torque. In my 5.9, I'm making tons of torque - from 1000rpm through 3000rpm. Frankly, I never ever go above 2500rpm. I typically "cruise" or "pull" between 1400rpm and 2100rpm. I've pulled the enclosed trailer across route 68, across route 70 through wheeling, down through PawPaw in the Smoky Mountains - and have never gotten less than 12mpg regardless of how fast I'm pulling. When doing that, I'm typically pulling (not including truck) a trailer that is around 10000lbs - at between 65 and 85mph. Driving from SW PA to Barber in November, I downshifted from 6th into 5th gear going up a hill - one time. Set the cruise, and just stay clear of stuff in front of me. Same thing for when I drive from here (near Beaver/PittRace) to either NCBike or Summit. We have another truck. A 3/4t Chevy with the 6.0l LS based motor. Yes, I can pull the trailer. But the one time I pulled it - when I bought the trailer in Ohio and dragged it back - empty - it was working HARD just to maintain 60-65mph, constantly downshifting even at a relatively minor grade on open highways. If I would have had the trailer loaded - it would be a real pain.

As to cost, without getting into details, remember that diesel engines have a far higher life expectancy. Some more than others. The 5.9 cummins (no longer made) has more than twice the rated service life - which if you look at the size of the piston rods compared to a Duramax or PStroke, you can understand. That's also why it makes more low end torque but runs out of steam faster - the others are more hot rods in the diesel world. But on top of that, speaking bluntly - I bought a 5yr old Cummins powered Dodge, 6spd manual - for around $10K. I had to fly to FL to get it, so you won't find them everywhere - but if you look carefully you can find them, so the idea that it's a rich mans solution is simply not accurate. If you can only have one vehicle, you are absolutely correct because ALL of the trucks new are ridiculously priced these days - with the diesels being the worst in terms of pricing. But if it's a weekend only tow vehicle, and you don't need it to be "fancy", there are plenty of reasonable options that will make pulling a trailer a pleasure rather than a chore.