Trailer Questions

borislav

Control Rider
borislav it's hard to explain to people why you can add twin superchargers and all the chips and tuning in the world but at the end of the day, you can simply not in any reasonable way make a gasser have the low rpm torque that a diesel has. Others here in N2 witnessed for example as my 5.9 diesel pulled a large enclosed trailer with multiple bikes up the exit from the paddocks at Barber - at idle. Not even a foot on the gas peddle whatsoever. A control rider was sitting next to me and could not believe it. I could have gotten out of the truck and walked next to it up the hill. I have built many many engines, and my pro-touring car makes better than 600hp and 550tq. It carries more than 500lbs torque from 2500rpm (where the dyno starts) through 7000rpm - never ever dropping. And the truck, making less hp, would pull it across the country without even breaking a sweat. The reason I trailer the car if I'm going a long distance? The truck gets more than twice the fuel economy and I can carry spare parts/tools.

The issue is the torque curve. Yes, you can bump up hp and torque (really, who cares about hp in trucks. HP is just a fabricated number that is a function of torque and rpm). It's all about torque. In my 5.9, I'm making tons of torque - from 1000rpm through 3000rpm. Frankly, I never ever go above 2500rpm. I typically "cruise" or "pull" between 1400rpm and 2100rpm. I've pulled the enclosed trailer across route 68, across route 70 through wheeling, down through PawPaw in the Smoky Mountains - and have never gotten less than 12mpg regardless of how fast I'm pulling. When doing that, I'm typically pulling (not including truck) a trailer that is around 10000lbs - at between 65 and 85mph. Driving from SW PA to Barber in November, I downshifted from 6th into 5th gear going up a hill - one time. Set the cruise, and just stay clear of stuff in front of me. Same thing for when I drive from here (near Beaver/PittRace) to either NCBike or Summit. We have another truck. A 3/4t Chevy with the 6.0l LS based motor. Yes, I can pull the trailer. But the one time I pulled it - when I bought the trailer in Ohio and dragged it back - empty - it was working HARD just to maintain 60-65mph, constantly downshifting even at a relatively minor grade on open highways. If I would have had the trailer loaded - it would be a real pain.

As to cost, without getting into details, remember that diesel engines have a far higher life expectancy. Some more than others. The 5.9 cummins (no longer made) has more than twice the rated service life - which if you look at the size of the piston rods compared to a Duramax or PStroke, you can understand. That's also why it makes more low end torque but runs out of steam faster - the others are more hot rods in the diesel world. But on top of that, speaking bluntly - I bought a 5yr old Cummins powered Dodge, 6spd manual - for around $10K. I had to fly to FL to get it, so you won't find them everywhere - but if you look carefully you can find them, so the idea that it's a rich mans solution is simply not accurate. If you can only have one vehicle, you are absolutely correct because ALL of the trucks new are ridiculously priced these days - with the diesels being the worst in terms of pricing. But if it's a weekend only tow vehicle, and you don't need it to be "fancy", there are plenty of reasonable options that will make pulling a trailer a pleasure rather than a chore.

I hope you did pay attention when you were reading first sentence in my response!
OP was talking about purchasing new vehicle for towing and every day driving, that was reason for my response the way it is.
I would never argue with you which engine configuration is better because that is personal preference, some people just don't want to mess with diesel and everything related to it starting with 10K price difference (when buying new),DEF, extra maintenance, higher fuel cost etc. I'm not going to talk about p/u trucks fuel milage because if you are buying a truck and worry about not getting 14 or whatever miles per gallon while towing you should stop right now, sell trailer, bikes and all your gear and get a new hobby of riding a bicycle which can be transported with your brand new Prius at 675 miles per gallon!:D
My daily job is to work on Detroit Diesels, Cummins, Cat, Lombardini, Hatz,Deutz etc. diesel engines so believe me I know what you are talking about.
Your second to last sentence described my point quite well. OP good luck in finding what you want, need, like!
 

wmhjr

Grandpa
Control Rider
Borislav, no worries. I get where you're coming from. FWIW, there is no DEF (though really, what's the big deal with DEF?), extra maintenance, etc on the 5.9s and not as new PStrokes and DMaxes. On the 5.9, I change the oil, filters, and that's about it. It did need new injectors, and a water pump. At 250k miles. :)

I do, however, think about fuel economy. While diesel is a little higher, the savings I get when considering I'm pulling thousands of miles is incredible. For Jennings alone, if I make no detours, shortest route down/back is 1824 miles. At average regular and diesel costs, I anticipate a total cost of $316 for my rig. If I tried using the Chevy with the 6.0l gasser, the best I could possibly hope for would cost me $608 - just for that one trip. My recent trip to Barber was 1500 miles round trip, and took 102 gallons of fuel. The gasser would have been WELL over 200. And that doesn't even take into account that I don't need to stop to refuel very often at all. I buy fuel not based on when the needle is down, but based on fuel prices as I'm crossing different state lines. Considering I did multiple trips to NCBike, Summit Point, etc in addition - I know I saved close to $1400 in fuel just this past year for track days. No need to buy a Prius to think about that :) $1400 is several set of tires, or the majority of a seasons pass! I'm not made of money, so if there is a reasonable way to do it, I'd rather give my money to a vendor at a track than hand it to Sunoco.

It is personal preference - some of us were just suggesting that a used somewhat "dedicated" pull/utility vehicle rather than a new "all purpose" vehicle might make sense - particularly if you're doing more than one or two local track days. For me, I'll never own another gasser "pull" vehicle. Frankly, I don't ever want another "new" tow vehicle. I like having a more "utility" but comfortable vehicle, fit for purpose, that I don't need to baby as much. I understand you're familiar with diesels based on your job, but lots of folks do not understand a torque curve, or why HP is a meaningless number for a tow vehicle. But there is nothing like having more than 10 thousand pounds behind you're 4x4 in 6th gear climbing hills with the cruise set at 70mph, and the motor turning 2000rpm delivering 14-15mpg. And if you can do that cheap and save the money to have a much nicer "primary" vehicle, I'm all about that.
 

rchase

New Member
Personally I'm a HUGE fan of Diesels. I have an 1980's Mercedes S class with their OM617 Inline 5 Turbo Diesel. It has 400K on it and has yet to have any real engine work other than glow plugs and standard diesel maintenance. Quite honestly it still runs so well I doubt I will need anything major for at least another decade.

I'll be the first one to admit that the diesel trucks are "the best" tow vehicles out there but you also have to look at how they are being used. It would be a bit of overkill to use one to tow my teeny trailer and it's a vehicle that generally serves only one purpose well. When you aren't using it to tow it's big, handles poorly and is a challenge to park. As comfortable as they are they lack a bit of the refinement you find in purpose built luxury vehicles. At least the last time I drove one which admittedly is not a current model year.

I initially looked at the X5 diesel. I'm a fan of diesels because of the reliable decades of service I have seen out of my Mercedes. However I do also recognize the limitations. Any diesel owner knows the harsh reality of pulling up to a fuel stop only to discover they don't sell diesel. You often have to spend a bit of time to think about where you get fuel rather than the flexibility of showing up anywhere for fuel. I'm also not a fan of carrying half full plastic fuel jugs around with fuel I brought with the bikes to go stale. I dump the remainder into the tanks of the bikes and my tow vehicle before I leave the track. You can't do that with a diesel. The adblue fluid also is a bit of a sore spot with me with many of the premium vehicles selling "overpriced" fluid and then giving you a hard time if you top off your urine solution at a truck stop. Factor in that you pay a premium for these inconveniences and it's not quite as appealing anymore. For me at least.

If you look at all of the positives of diesels they are an absolutely amazing choice. If you factor in everything though they often aren't the best choice for everyone. There's also a passion among diesel owners that helps them look beyond the inconveniences. I admire that passion and it's a passion that I have shared myself owning my Mercedes. I have friends that home brew their own WVO fuel and stain their garages with stinky used fry oil and deal with toxic chemicals to save a bit on fuel. With their passion you don't dare mention their time and health vs the small cost savings.

All of that being said I really appreciate the suggestions and might start being a little less stubborn and start considering "everything" rather than just the choices I zoned in on. While the GT would probably work as a tow vehicle it's a collection of compromises that probably is not the best. I'll look at the X5's a bit more and might take a second look at some diesel trucks just for the hell of it. I might even try my luck at annoying the hell out of some car salespeople showing up with a trailer for a test drive. When I test drove the GL550 at the Mercedes dealer the salesman actually volunteered to do this. I bet he would crap his pants if I actually took him up on the offer. BRUHAh hah hah hahhhhhh! :)
 
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haldavid

New Member
I towed a 6x12 enclosed v-nose (single axle, no brakes) with two bikes, pit bike, full gear, etc for two riders with an Audi Q5 TDI for the whole 2015 season. I sometimes forgot I even had a trailer back there except under heavy braking.

You shouldn't have any issues at all.
 

rchase

New Member
Haldavid,

That's super helpful. The Q5 is a smaller SUV and that gives me an idea of what to expect. The cool thing about some of the Audi's and BMW's is the M & S parts. I almost put that in there backwards LOL!
 

motorkas

Member
What up Kas!! I knew those ears would perk up when someone mentioned BMW. :cool:

WHAT UP VIN!!!!!!! Nope, just trying to help a fellow addict not go down the road we did (still remember racing you back home on 95 in our SUV's - to the op - neither of us have those SUV's or trailers now :). Hope to see more of you this year brother - already planning out the year:D

Kas my brother...
If money is no object than diesel truck with all bells and whistles... but there is few people with that PROBLEM and (you are one of them)!:p
For us mortals we have to do our homework really good or at least as best as possible so when I bought my truck I knew I can't afford diesel but I bought truck that had what I wanted equipment wise and towing capability of 10000 lbs. I put it through serious test this past summer by towing SlowSteve 25'(I think that's the size of it) camper from MD to Beve through PA mountains and truck did it with out a problem.
Also what I looked into was factory performance upgrades available which is supercharger (if I need more power and torque) that would bring my truck to aprox. 520hp and 500 ftlbs of torque which is diesel truck power and torque for A LOT LESS MONEY!

Believe me brother - still remember that conversation well (and it definitely factors into what I'll do next). I was just talking about 3/4-1 tons for diesel (and honestly, I read something recently where the newer 1/2 tons are the same size as the older 3/4- 1 tons and thats why they can pull so much). I know its not fair but driving Dave's Dually through the mountains left an impression. . .and then driving the 250 with gas - believe me - for the sacrifices you have to make with a super duty ride wise - I would never go gas. . .I LOVED the eco boost in the 150 though. . .as you know, my love for superchargers is very well known so the thought of a Toyota with one makes me smile (Toyota reliability and all:D.

I think it all boils down to what you think you'll be doing a couple of years from now. . .The trailer and loads just keep growing (and so do the distances we're willing to travel to ride). Going to hold onto my current ride through the next season, however, come 2017. . .:devil:

OP - I'd definitely get a X5 diesel or turbo six to pull the 6x10 but if you have any plans to go larger than 7x14 - that's pick up territory. . .:)
 

rchase

New Member
I WANT THAT! Yes its probably made of paper. Yes the weight of my bikes alone would kill the engine of the tow vehicle but damn. That 360 degree maneuverability is amazing.

After considering the shortcomings of the GT and then dealing with a flaky dealership trying to acutally buy an X5 I have decided that in the short term that "upgrading" is really not worth the effort. I may revisit this idea later on but for now the heck with it.

The Rover is comfy and does a good job for now. I'm equipping the trailer with a night view back up camera to make life easier (tinted windows and my black hole of a driveway makes for scary parking). I'm going to install some air springs inside the rear coil springs on the Rover (it's not drooping I just am paranoid about my springs especially since it sits there months on end with a trailer attached). I'm also going to extend the hitch a bit so I don't have to remove the jack anymore to get the folding rear tailgate open on the Rover. I might even get fancy and spring for an electric jack and some leveling jacks for the trailer and maybe even an A/C unit if I can find a place in Atlanta to do all the work.

It might not be shiny and sleek and have a zillion techno-features like an X5 but It's a handsome brute with it's slab sides and sinister personality.

IMG_0403.JPG


Motorkas. Notice in your tag line you are having some corner speed issues on your RR. Flip the rear shock eccentric and get some Forged Wheels or some BST's. That will fix her right up. It probably won't be completely SV650 like (darn you physics) but you could probably get pretty close. Of course you may have already done all of that and just miss that "little bit". Just yell "POWARRRRR" in your helmet like Jeremy Clarkson and it will be much better. Before I went RR I rode a spritely little FZR400 with great handling. I don't miss riding that bike at the track one bit for about 193 reasons. :)
 

motorkas

Member
Wish I could blame the wheels but It's TOTALLY THE RIDER'S FAULT!!!!!!!!:confused:

That being said. . .waaaaaay ahead of you. . .it is much more fun blaming the parts. . .and now I can officially say "2016 will be the year of corner speed":D



 

rchase

New Member
Very nice. I have a black set of those for my "street bike".

It could always be much worse you realize. You could be rolling around Novice on a set of these. 2016 will be the year of corner speed for me as well. I'm still getting used to the crazy turn in that seems impossible.

IMG_7245.JPG
 

motorkas

Member
LMAO. Yup, it's the off-season

Nope - just testosterone. . .happens all year round Judy - you know that. . .:rofl:

Very nice. I have a black set of those for my "street bike".

It could always be much worse you realize. You could be rolling around Novice on a set of these. 2016 will be the year of corner speed for me as well. I'm still getting used to the crazy turn in that seems impossible.

IMG_7245.JPG

Would have loved to do CF. . .but the thought of changing the rear every 3-4 days makes me cringe. . .I'd be :poop: every time I knew the rear had to be changed. . .:D
 

rchase

New Member
CF wheels aren't as fragile as people really think. I know someone who gets even less time on a set of tires at the track. With his appetite for tires his set of wheels spends a lot of time on a lot of random tire changers without much of an issue other than wheel weight and duct tape residue. I was really uptight the first time mine got changed too but my tire guy explained that you REALLY have to screw up to break one and that most of the damage claims that you hear about are just scratches in the finish rather than a "destroyed wheel". Of course for owners that just have them on there for bling a scratch in their minds is destroyed. I don't even worry about mine anymore. If they get scratched no biggie as the weave pattern hides most blemishes unless you are on your hands and knees with a microfibre towel cleaning them and really looking. I'm a bit of a perfectionist too and even drop off a roll of black gaffers tape rather than duct tape so I'm not spending 20 minutes of my life getting the adhesive off. :)

Check out this Youtube video. They are throwing a BST wheel onto the concrete and bouncing it like a basket ball. Try that with regular wheels.


Even if you are unlucky and break one (nothing's indestructible) the good vendors like BST have a program where you send in your hub and they send you a new wheel at a substantially reduced price. Try that too with regular wheels.

I was a non believer too for the longest time until I rode my friends bike. Even at my pokey pace I can tell the difference in turn in between my forged wheels and the carbon ones. I get an entire season on two bikes and two sets of Pirelli Supercorsa SP's.

Sorry for the drawn out rant. I promise I don't work for BST! Actually I wish I did as I want another set for the 2nd bike so I can bounce tires back and forth at will.

Hey. I missed this to begin with because of the blue color and mistook them for HP4 forged wheels. That's a super nice finish on those! Where did you get it done?
 

rchase

New Member
P.S. Wheel bouncing starts at 4:07. For some reason it did not take the "copy at time" URL I provided.
 

Thunderace

BIG JIM
Control Rider
They ought to do a comparison of bouncing a carbon wheel versus an aluminum wheel then put them on a wheel balancer to see the difference. I bet the carbon wheel is still perfectly round. Wish I had $3-4k laying around! Better go get my PowerBall tickets tonight!!!! $450 million buys a couple sets of those bad boys!
 

rchase

New Member
I'll be the first one to admit that Aluminum has one big advantage over CF. You can repair it if you need to. That's probably one of the disadvantages that inspired BST to create their exchange program. Wheel breakage is an edge case with how strong they are but they were smart enough to cover that. Especially with a set of BST with the good bearings running into the 4K range. That's a lot of risk for some people.
 

motorkas

Member
They ought to do a comparison of bouncing a carbon wheel versus an aluminum wheel then put them on a wheel balancer to see the difference. I bet the carbon wheel is still perfectly round. Wish I had $3-4k laying around! Better go get my PowerBall tickets tonight!!!! $450 million buys a couple sets of those bad boys!

:)

CF wheels aren't as fragile as people really think. I know someone who gets even less time on a set of tires at the track. With his appetite for tires his set of wheels spends a lot of time on a lot of random tire changers without much of an issue other than wheel weight and duct tape residue. I was really uptight the first time mine got changed too but my tire guy explained that you REALLY have to screw up to break one and that most of the damage claims that you hear about are just scratches in the finish rather than a "destroyed wheel". Of course for owners that just have them on there for bling a scratch in their minds is destroyed. I don't even worry about mine anymore. If they get scratched no biggie as the weave pattern hides most blemishes unless you are on your hands and knees with a microfibre towel cleaning them and really looking. I'm a bit of a perfectionist too and even drop off a roll of black gaffers tape rather than duct tape so I'm not spending 20 minutes of my life getting the adhesive off. :)

Check out this Youtube video. They are throwing a BST wheel onto the concrete and bouncing it like a basket ball. Try that with regular wheels.


Even if you are unlucky and break one (nothing's indestructible) the good vendors like BST have a program where you send in your hub and they send you a new wheel at a substantially reduced price. Try that too with regular wheels.

I was a non believer too for the longest time until I rode my friends bike. Even at my pokey pace I can tell the difference in turn in between my forged wheels and the carbon ones. I get an entire season on two bikes and two sets of Pirelli Supercorsa SP's.

Sorry for the drawn out rant. I promise I don't work for BST! Actually I wish I did as I want another set for the 2nd bike so I can bounce tires back and forth at will.

Hey. I missed this to begin with because of the blue color and mistook them for HP4 forged wheels. That's a super nice finish on those! Where did you get it done?


The finish is from the factory - they're PVM's
 
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