Skill Plateaus

[Louber]

Wow! The discussion on here is tremendous. Really appreciate the feedback and support. I'm in this for the long haul and want to improve.

Dumbing things down and having one or two focus areas per session makes a lot of sense too. Changing a bunch of variables at once wasn't a whole lot of fun.

Didn't know the ATP did filming, that's awesome and probably worth it for benchmarking purposes alone. I'm going to see about upgrading into that for September at PIRC.

Things discussed here that I haven't put a whole lot of thought into:
-Foot angle
-fore/aft seat positioning - Dunno why I'm crowding the tank. Probably laziness/out of shapeness.

Targets to play with on the garage pitbull stand drills (yeah I do this too) and next trackday!

 

[bmart]

Lou, if you get down south, look me up. Like any coach, I'd be happy to spend some time with you on and off of the track.

I push body position a lot when I talk to other riders. I have some neck/shoulder/back damage so I can't always do what others suggest. My body just won't do it. For me, body position means a few things. Let's see if I can get them out of my brain clearly!

1. Unless you're in a tuck in a straight, your eyes (and hence, your head) should be way off one side or the other for the turn. That means that if you are looking through your windscreen at all, to quote the kid from Mr. Mom, "you're doing it wrong." This makes it a very easy test that is immediately correctable.
2. I hear a lot about weighting one foot or the other. I've not personally found any value in either but instead focus on no weight on the seat and all weight on the outside thigh. This gives me a solid foundation to use to alter my body position from; more off the bike if I am carrying more speed or lean angle than I want to, and less off the bike if I want to alter my line out. These transitions allow a rider to smoothly change their trajectory without changing the touch points on the bike. This keeps the suspension settled, doesn't interfere with the controls, and makes you safer.
3. Look faaaar ahead with only light contact on the bars. You'll find that you start to apex over the paint because your body isn't fighting the bike at all. This is MUCH safer for you and your budget.
4. Loose. Loose. Loose. Some things stick with me. One for me is the Wood brothers up north. They preached the funky chicken and I use it in nearly every session. Wiggle those arms and legs when you feel like you are getting tense or gripping the bars too tightly. This is another easy fix that can put in place immediately on track.

Think about these and things others have posted. Pick something to work on every session. If you go out last, you generally have a lot of free track without other riders...I hope that we get a chance to ride together.

 

[andykurz]

A lot of good suggestions here. One other thing I haven't seen mentioned is to sign up for a race. Racing allows you to be on track with people who are faster and slower than you and all on the same or similar equipment. It's a great learning tool and forces you to focus. If you see three people pass you on the brakes in a corner, you'll brake later on the next lap. Similar with corner speed, how early you apply throttle, etc. All these things will make you faster. Many people I have met and raced with, myself included run their personal best lap time in their first race. It's a ton of fun and very good for rider development.

Then you can come back to the track day and focus on your form and other fundamentals mentioned here.

I was on a big, long plateau, and occasionally crashing before I started racing. Now, my times come down each time I go to a track and my progress is continuing. And I am having a lot of fun.

 

[CBRtist]

-fore/aft seat positioning - Dunno why I'm crowding the tank. Probably laziness/out of shapeness.

Remind yourself to push back in between turns. One of the things I like about the new R3 is that I can feel the end of the seat on my tush, so if it's not touching, I know I'm not where I need to be and readjust.

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned is to sign up for a race. Racing allows you to be on track with people who are faster and slower than you and all on the same or similar equipment.

Gonna add on to Andy here and suggest to maybe try racing with Mini GP to start instead of big bikes. Bikes are smaller, less intimidating and force you to work on the fundamentals. I'm considering taking the 3-day camp late September which includes a practice race on my 100.

I think Andy races bitty bikes too... or at least did... I can't recall since it's been ages since I've seen him lol.

 

[andykurz]

Love me some mini racing, still do it. A good suggestion.

 

[Dave561]

One of the best times I had was a 4hr endurance race at NJ. We even took third

Edit. On the minis

 

[andykurz]

Gettin harder and harder to podium on minis with all these alien kids with superhuman skills. But still fun, good training and worth doing. That was a fun, hot, hard fought day Dave!

But I digress.

 

[YOLOrider87]

First off thanks to all the CRs at Thunderbolt yesterday (9/4) had a great time. Really enjoyed reading this thread, great information on it. Some of the issues Louber has I do as well. Found myself having to sit out a session yesterday in the later afternoon as I felt fatigued, my lower back was aching and as the day went on I felt as if my ass was glued onto my seat. I was barely getting off the seat and shifting over and as I concentrated more on what I was NOT doing my riding suffered and I became frustrated. The first two sessions I was feeling great, had one pucker moment when I scraped my toes on turn 5 which caused me to stand the bike upright and could see a CR pass me motioning me to slow it down a notch. The issue with proper foot position has been visited before in my case and luckily haven't low sided because of it. Maybe i'm thinking too much into this but when they say edge of the foot pegs first two toes (ball of your feet)on the end end of the pegs ( which allows you to turn in your foot), assuming your BP is correct. Wouldn't your foot be more at risk of scraping due to placement ( end of the foot pegs)? I've attached two photos so any feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[wmhjr]

Glad you had a good time at Thunderbolt yesterday. All in all, a pretty good day to be at the track! A couple things.

First - good decision making on sitting out a session if you are aware that you were fatigued and frustrated. Being tired can often result in getting lazy about riding well - which can lead to you and the bike going separate ways on the track! Sometimes a break is exactly what's needed.

As for the foot position, let's assume for a moment that your rearsets are in good position if they're adjustable. But in general - if the actual BALL of your foot is on the end of the peg, and you're pointed your knee directly toward the inside of the turn, then no - you're not going to be at risk of scraping your toes. When you're getting off the bike, your toe really ends up pointing to the inside and down - and is out of the way. When I look at your pics, it doesn't look to me that the ball of your foot is on the end of the peg. Your boot might be sort of pointing to the inside, but because you're directly on top of the bike, it's just extending straight out from the peg - effectively making the peg longer but without weighting it. Also, because you are so much straight up and down (particularly pic 8125) you're carrying some super extreme lean angle that given you're in Novice group, is WAY more than you want to have. Take a look at how close your rear brake lever is to the track surface....

Remember, the point is to retain points of grip with the tires. So, we're trying to use the least amount of lean angle possible to take the radius of a corner at a particular speed. Clearly as speed increases, so will lean angle. But we want to start by eliminating as much as possible for our starting point. So, the purpose of getting off the bike is really to dramatically weight that inside peg - signaling the bike to turn at speed with less lean angle - meaning more tire - meaning better grip - meaning safer. In other words, the more lean angle you keep in "reserve", the more opportunity you have to increase the speed you're taking that turn. That also explains why you see the really really fast racers (MotoGP, WSB, MotoAmerica) with really extreme lean angles. In order to go twice as fast through that same corner as you, they're using that "reserve".

 

[Louber]

I concentrated more on what I was NOT doing my riding suffered and I became frustrated.

Glad to hear others are getting some benefit from this thread as well. Being able to identify when you're not riding at your best is huge. Helps you cool off, focus on the fundamentals and ultimately keep the shiny side up.

Early on, trackdays were all about "GOTTA GO SLAY ALL THE CORNERS EVERY LAP." But I realized after a while that there are lots of sessions and lots of trackdays available. Riding smart and safe will lead to fast eventually.

 

[wmhjr]

You guys have the right attitude, and are clearly focused on improving and progressing. You're asking for - and taking feedback seriously. I've been exactly where you guys are right now - and if you keep it up, you'll be moving up through the groups and will end up being the ones giving advice to newer riders. Nobody ever gets to the point where we can't improve our skills, and recognizing that every tool that you can use to become better on the track is key. Nice work, guys.

 

[YOLOrider87]

That helps tremendously , it wasn't registering just hearing it in class. I'll practice drilling this in my garage lol

 

[Dom17]

Congratulations and I am glad to hear that you had a good time!

Based on reviewing your photos it does not look like you have your feet in the proper position. If you look at the soles of your feet you will see wear marks starting to develop. I have attached an image of the approximate location where the end of the rearset should be digging into your sole. If you do not have aftermarket adjustable rearsets I would suggest getting them as they make the pegs feel a lot more solid with more grip and they do not fold as well. This will give you more confidence to really put a lot of weight on the edge of your peg. To answer your question about whether this position will actually make foot dragging worse, simply find some slow motion videos of racers on youtube and you will see that their feet are back on the rearsets and not making contact. I get the feeling your feet are too far forward making it hard to pivot them.

Perhaps more importantly is your body position. Please see the red line that I drew, over 50% of your body mass is past the center line of the bike which is actually forcing you to have a greater lean angle. This will result in decreased traction and greater risk. While in Novice do not worry about being king of speed. When I was in novice I would get passed all the time by guys sitting straight up and down on the bike and it was frustrating, body position really comes together the faster you get and it will feel more natural. That being said, you need to practice doing things the best way if you want to excel. I would recommend attending the body position seminar at lunch and taking your speed back a few notches and really work on body position. I am fearful that this is a crash waiting to happen as you add speed.

You are going to get a lot of feed back in this thread, it is a great thing that you are looking for ways to improve during off the track time! Just remember that practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If you have paddock stands I would suggest practicing body position in your garage over the winter and video taping it so you can see how you look while you are doing it.

Best of luck! Once these things start to click it is going to be an epiphany after epiphany.

 

[bmart]

Outstanding job taking a session off to rejuvenate and hydrate. Many folks don't/won't do that. I have personally been to a track day run by a different organization where a manly-man rider refused to drink all day in the heat. In an afternoon session his body physically and mentally shut down. He went limp at full speed on the straightaway at VIR South and obviously crashed and was injured. He remembered nothing of it and refused to get medical help. Dehydration causes all sort of motor function and decision making issues. If you feel at all foggy, pull in for a beak and some fluids. Nice job not being "that guy."

While looking for a specific pic which I couldn't locate, I found this article. some good stuff in there.
http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/coming_unglued.aspx

And this one too.
https://rideapart.com/articles/10-t...out-motorcycle-body-position-for-sport-riding

I hope that you find those informative.

 

[tdelegram]

I can't say it enough, listen to Ken Hills podcasts they are free and the foundational elements that are taught in ycrs

 

[HondaGalToo]

I can't say it enough, listen to Ken Hills podcasts they are free and the foundational elements that are taught in ycrs

I can't like this enough.
All good advice in this thread! For once, lol, I have nothing else to add at the moment, except to also add kudos for listening and wanting to get the fundamentals down. We are all working on the same fundamentals, just at varying degrees. Keep at it, keep seeking knowledge! Faster/safer as the guys from YCRS preach.

 

[tdelegram]

Let's make this fool proof:

http://khcoaching.com/podcasts/

On iTunes search for "Ken Hill Coaching"

Now Judy can double like me!

Tom

 

[adotjdot]

Let's make this fool proof:

http://khcoaching.com/podcasts/

On iTunes search for "Ken Hill Coaching"

Now Judy can double like me!

Tom

We ALL double like you Tom! ;-)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[tdelegram]

We ALL double like you Tom! ;-)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I think I just cyber blushed.

 

[Motofun352]

Some more info on hydration....Start the night before. You should need to have to pee between every session (twice for us old guys). Take it easy on the diuretics like coffee.