bad day at VIR video

[andykurz]

^ I think you bring up a good point; it's one that I struggle with a lot. I would normally like to leave room around me too - especially at entry and exit - in case other riders are there. I often know that they are behind me - I can hear them!

However, when riding with NESBA, it is stressed that we all stay on the race line. So in my opinion (and my asshole Ruhe?), all of us should strive to do that. If we are all predictable, smooth and consistent, we all end up safer. If you are not running the race line, you are not really predictable - except after someone has been following you for awhile. Inevitably, people have different interpretations of race line - some of which are wrong, but to the extent we are all trying to be predictable, we all win.

 

[gkotlin]

The rider of the camera bike should be banned from the track forever. You don't stop. You don't turn off the camera. Learn to find an apex!

 

[RacerX]

cbr_600rr_freak;256270 wrote: I was there. It was said,"NO PASSING IN THE KINK." I've been to many td there with a couple different orgs at north and never heard ANYONE EVER say anything about NOT passing in T7. This issue was handled at the track between staff and not blasted in public. That's why it's not all over the social media about it. Any td org that has incidents handles them in house. Not public. The td org that held this event has a great reputation and does not need to be blasted here or anywhere else. It's not professional. There are a ton of videos from all org's that make each org look bad but it's how it's handled that matters. I'm hope everyone can learn about what not to do in this section by this video.

JRA;256283 wrote: It's part of my rider's meeting. See the guy crashing up against the ARMCO in the video? That's really not what you want to have happen to you. If you overtake on the left there eventually you will get pushed off. If you're lucky you'll keep in on two wheels.

cbr_600rr_freak;256288 wrote: I've never heard you mention that. Did you include that recently?

John he's just being defensive because he's a TPM coach.


On a side note post #39 didnt mention the org. Oops..

 

[flynlow69]

hopefully there will be updates to this post concerning the condition of the riders. they are our brothers you know!

http://shopphilly.com/teampromotion/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=10786

 

[stkr]

The use of different lines can be taught/corrected over time. What consistency/predictability means is that a given rider runs THEIR same line through the same corner each time. Anyone following this rider, and being patient enough to see the rider's style, will be far better prepared to execute a SAFE pass within the group rules, or decide on a different option for clear track...HOT PIT.

If a rider is making ANY abrupt line/directional changes, or doesn't run the same line consistently, then the smart rider will give them extra room and use extra caution when they're trying to overtake them. If you're not doing this, then your judgement skills are not where they need to be.

Anyone that wants to ride under the philosophy of "pass them where ever you catch them" should just go ahead and get a race license and go for it. This should not be the mentality at a track day...not even in the group.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

The point originally focused on and what I thought when I saw the video was: Why are these riders all over the place (before the crashes)? And I hope if they have watched the video, they are asking themselves the same question (amongst other things).

With regards to Barry chewing me I’ll never forget that. It was a classic case of new to me bike, new to me track and making an error on track speed entry. It was a cheap lesson learned as nothing happened but when the CR’s about come un glued on people for coming onto a track the wrong way…trust me it’s for a good reason. It’s a real Russian roulette situation if you do it wrong.

BZ

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

Rhue wrote: "A TZ is going to take a very different line vs a 1000. If those or any of these factors cause an issue for an overtaking rider (and I am not looking to insult anyone... well maybe a little) perhaps the issue lies with you the overtaking rider. "

:notsure:

BZ

 

[maxpr1]

Even with all the sarcasm, this thread is full of "Win" and definitively tries to clarify a pretty important topic

 

[bmrboy]

I'm really surprised by the amount of replies,I'm glad I started this thread .... Unfortunately, it was at the expence of
some riders that could have been seriously injured, luckily nobody was ....
Just some destroyed bikes & some bent egos. The most positive thing that has come out of this is rider awareness.
The Video clearly indicates a multitude of bad choices. I have looked at every post several times, I think for the most part
a lot of good questions were asked, people offered up their thoughts about what they saw, individual interpretations.
It made you all think, it got your attention, nobody wants to see a crash like that, I know I don't.

This thing that we all love to do,is NOT for everyone, things can happen quickly & is very unforgiving, there is no
dicrimination here. As I had stated before that I hoped the Video would be used as a learning tool,and it has.
I would like to think that every viewer came away a little wiser. This is not golf we are playing here, poor judgment
can have serious consiquenses. :doh:

Most people would not pick a sport that involves flying around on a race track at 150+ never mind on a motorcycle
But I think golf is way to slow, This sport takes huge amount of ,skill,ability,agility,common sense,quick thinking
multi tasking to the 10 th power, nerves of steel,balls of brass. I don't think anyone would disagree with that....

Now, for all you future track riders out there, if you think you are fast on the street and think you will be the same here
THINK AGAIN , you better be willing to take your time to learn to do it right, don't let your ego get in the way,it will only
get you hurt. Don't try to impress your girl friend or show your friends how cool you are ,if you come to the track
with that attitude you will leave with a bike all smashed to hell & a few bumps and bruises, if your lucky.

I consider my self to be very lucky, I have enjoyed riding for over 47 yrs ,longer that most members have been on this
planet for. Racing,sport touring,track riding ect. The approach I take is very serious. After being away from the track for
over 34 yrs, I knew I had much to learn, I took my time,put self imposed limitations on myself, listened to the CR'S, took
that information and applied it, used self control,rode my ride.

I was fortunate enough to have some of the CR'S take a personal intrest, one imparticular ,I think they wanted to make
sure the old guy didn't hurt himself, some people have joked and said I'm older than dirt, maybe I am
But what I'm trying to say here is this, I want to see everyone have as much fun as I do.

The key is,listen,learn,take your time to do it right, be patient, take a few minutes before you hit the track, a little quiet
time, get focused,think about what your going to be doing, it has worked for me for many years, and it WILL work
for you, The only person you need to impress is YOU... By using good judgment.

Remember,your NOT the only rider out there, have fun, ride safe .. enough said..

 

[JRA]

bmrboy;256820 wrote: I'm really surprised by the amount of replies,I'm glad I started this thread .... Unfortunately, it was at the expence of
some riders that could have been seriously injured, luckily nobody was ....
Just some destroyed bikes & some bent egos. The most positive thing that has come out of this is rider awareness.
The Video clearly indicates a multitude of bad choices. I have looked at every post several times, I think for the most part
a lot of good questions were asked, people offered up their thoughts about what they saw, individual interpretations.
It made you all think, it got your attention, nobody wants to see a crash like that, I know I don't.

This thing that we all love to do,is NOT for everyone, things can happen quickly & is very unforgiving, there is no
dicrimination here. As I had stated before that I hoped the Video would be used as a learning tool,and it has.
I would like to think that every viewer came away a little wiser. This is not golf we are playing here, poor judgment
can have serious consiquenses. :doh:

Most people would not pick a sport that involves flying around on a race track at 150+ never mind on a motorcycle
But I think golf is way to slow, This sport takes huge amount of ,skill,ability,agility,common sense,quick thinking
multi tasking to the 10 th power, nerves of steel,balls of brass. I don't think anyone would disagree with that....

Now, for all you future track riders out there, if you think you are fast on the street and think you will be the same here
THINK AGAIN , you better be willing to take your time to learn to do it right, don't let your ego get in the way,it will only
get you hurt. Don't try to impress your girl friend or show your friends how cool you are ,if you come to the track
with that attitude you will leave with a bike all smashed to hell & a few bumps and bruises, if your lucky.

I consider my self to be very lucky, I have enjoyed riding for over 47 yrs ,longer that most members have been on this
planet for. Racing,sport touring,track riding ect. The approach I take is very serious. After being away from the track for
over 34 yrs, I knew I had much to learn, I took my time,put self imposed limitations on myself, listened to the CR'S, took
that information and applied it, used self control,rode my ride.

I was fortunate enough to have some of the CR'S take a personal intrest, one imparticular ,I think they wanted to make
sure the old guy didn't hurt himself, some people have joked and said I'm older than dirt, maybe I am
But what I'm trying to say here is this, I want to see everyone have as much fun as I do.

The key is,listen,learn,take your time to do it right, be patient, take a few minutes before you hit the track, a little quiet
time, get focused,think about what your going to be doing, it has worked for me for many years, and it WILL work
for you, The only person you need to impress is YOU... By using good judgment.

Remember,your NOT the only rider out there, have fun, ride safe .. enough said..
Excellent post Mike!


If you are not running the race line, you are not really predictable - except after someone has been following you for awhile. Inevitably, people have different interpretations of race line - some of which are wrong, but to the extent we are all trying to be predictable, we all win.

I would say that the vast majority of riders have the race line wrong in at least one or two parts of the track all the time, but no matter where we are (right or wrong) the line we are on is ours and you cannot make me change it and have it be okay. If you do I have a right to be very pissed at you.

Where you are a little off base here though is in saying that having the line wrong makes you initially unpredictable. That's not true. We are dealing with the laws of physics; or scientific laws of some sort that mean you can only do certain things once you start turning a heavy object (motorcycle) that is in motion. For instance once you initiate your turn you can only alter it a certain amount without crashing. I'm a pretty good judge of where your momentum is going to take you and still leave a margin for error. If you alter it enough to make you crash I know where your momentum is going to take you. I don't need to see you take the same turn two or three times to figure that out. Where riders are unpredictable is when they are straight up and down. Base your plan of attack on what the rider ahead does after he starts turning, or leave yourself plenty of room if straight up and down on the brakes. Don't over think this, it isn't that difficult.

 

[osbg]

JRA;256824 wrote: no matter where we are (right or wrong) the line we are on is ours and you cannot make me change it and have it be okay. If you do I have a right to be very pissed at you.

Thank you.

I assume that your words include situations where people try to sneak by on the outside either at entry or exit ... even if I'm not the fastest rider on the track at the time.

 

[JRA]

If I make you change your line I've made a bad pass.

I hear the excuse all the time that " I had to make that pass because the rider ahead did..." You have to bear in mind that we are all human and subject to mistakes, but mistakes in this sport can get people killed. There is no exception to this very simple rule; if the rider in front of you does something you don't expect and that causes you to go outside of the rules, YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT MORE ROOM TO ACCOUNT FOR THE UNEXPECTED. Period end of story. Do not ever give me that line.

I hope this clarifies the question.

 

[osbg]

Indeed.

I made my statements because your position doesn't seem to be universally accepted.

 

[Ruhe52]

I made my statements because your position doesn't seem to be universally accepted.

Yeah but those are riders and John is a director so believe in the same thing or not he is the guy running the show and he actually is right so universally excepted or not it is the way it is going to be. Stand a rider up trying to pass him. If you are seen doing that you are coming in. Make a bone head pass and be a safety issue you are sitting out. It is really that simple. It's a safety thing. I love when rules that have made this organization as safe as it can be come up for debate when it is not really open for debate. Then of course the fact that these policies have worked and been in force for over a decade it is NESBA just being its elite The Holier than thou accusation that comes out. John knows what it takes to ride safe and still have fun and run fast. He learned from guys that knew that stuff before he did. Many of us learned from him and his co CRs and we are just trying to pass it on. More times than not what is being discussed here will get you back on the trailer in the same shape you pulled it off. The fact that he has more track days under his belt than most have laps should actually enter into the equation when considering if he knows what he is talking about. Of course just my opinion I could be completely wrong. At least his wife Leslie makes awesome Cowboy Beans.
You need to allow for the guy in front of you to do something totally unexpected. Act accordingly.

 

[bmrboy]

Excellent post Mike!

Thank you Sir. The information is available, just trying to get people to see it,and believe it ...

 

[JRA]

osbg;256831 wrote: Indeed.

I made my statements because your position doesn't seem to be universally accepted.

I'm very interested in an example. Care to point out where my position has been contradicted?

 

[JRA]

Assuming only one line is correct all the time, things get a little complicated in your local I group with its varied mix of skills and equipment. Disregarding the one-line limitation you have riders on smaller bikes trying to keep their speed up on the outside together with riders on larger machines who can take a more squared-off approach closer to the inside. As said in another post, all are entitled to the entire track.

You know what they say about assuming...

At most tracks there is more than one correct line. The difference might be small in one turn and large in another; and it could be a very big difference in some turns depending on the bike you are riding. In fact it the line could be pretty different on the same bike with riding style dictating the fastest way around. On the other hand it could be a turn where there really is only one line. Again, right or wrong the line you are on is your line and you do not need to ever feel like you should be leaving room for someone to sneak past you. Ride your ride. Try to be as consistent as you can. Don't make any sudden moves away from the line that the person behind you should reasonably expect you to take. Don't over think this, it's a very simple concept that is being made out to be difficult.

 

[madriders86]

I learned this lesson kind of the hard way about an hour after being bumped to I group by dave pullen.
I wanted to pass a rider in front of me, and I JUST KNEW i could carry way more speed than he into turn 1 than he. I thought that I would overtake him on the brakes fully before entering the turn. It wasn't to be. He used the entire outside of the track so I couldn't go there, but he also carried more speed than I had expected him to going in. I felt it was too late for me to check up, I was already committed. Turns out that guy was a little surprised to see me there.

Guess who was right behind me :doh: Guess who let me know that my failure to observe the rider in front of me and set up a pass properly was not an excuse!:doh::doh:

Thanks for the lesson and thanks for not taking my sticker dave

 

[HondaGalToo]

I like the discussion and lessons in this thread. Any discussion and reminders on how to make this safer is a good idea in my book. My recent misfortune has made me want increased awareness. GREAT post #89 bmrboy!!! There's no need for all this discourteous behavior to our fellow riders. It's a trackday, we should be riding WITH our friends, not against them. The person you put a bad pass on and take out could end up being a good friend. I'm still mending. I have Mike's (bmrboy) philosophy about trackdays....been doing them injury-free for 17 years until recently taken out hard by another rider.

The safety information and rules, and how to respect your fellow riders can't be stressed enough.

How about another lesson from YCRS - pass when the bikes are moving away from each other.

 

[osbg]

JRA;256840 wrote: I'm very interested in an example. Care to point out where my position has been contradicted?
Here is a control rider in this thread. Are we to follow this example?

Ruhe52;256215 wrote: When I was in I group I always tried to leave just a little room on the outside for faster riders

From the passing thread.

pearsonm;250922 wrote:
So many times coming up to or within a corner slower riders will drift to the outside edge and pinch off others trying to properly get around. Of course then there's a drag race down the straight with a wide variance in equipment, experience and bravery. It's my opinion - and I'm only posting this because the offer has been made to discuss it - is that maybe in the I group a little more emphasis could be put on remembering that no matter who you are there's probably somebody on your outside trying to get around.