NJMP - A little rant (and request for any gopro videos of the crash)

[z064life]

dave yarnall;291056 wrote: Ok, I'm gonna surface as “that guy”, who is the missing witness to and try to make some sense of the “incident” at NJMSP... Sunday the 29th.
All of my ranting, thought sharing, is leading up to this>>>
I was a pretty good witness to the “indecent” at Thunderbolt the 29th. Here is what I saw and my assessment. I did not get bike #'s, colors or helmet sizes of either riders. I had limited time to see what I saw before I had to turn my head into the turn. The accused, mystery “Knob head” rider, made a good, clean inside pass.... whether contact was made or not I can't honestly say. Was it a close pass, yes. It's the “A” group guys, you have to expect they'll be some close passes sometimes. It appeared the affected got spooked/flinched and stood his bike up. It appeared he had enough room to re-execute the turn but instead he stood it up, rode it off and evidently hit the wall. Honestly I was surprised the red flag was for him. I would have thought he'd had time to re-enter or at a minimum not get to the wall.

I'll agree with most of your post except what I highlighted in bold. Trackdays aren't racing, not everyone in A group has raced and not everyone in A group has years of experience in it. A good clean inside pass shouldn't even be questioned if contact was made or not. That is my opinion and one that I follow when I'm deciding when and where to pass. I may not always give 6', but I sure give more than inches as well.

At the end of the day this is a trackday and even in A group there are a lot of non racers and unless you know the person, everyone should be treated that way. If no contact was made, I'll say it was a clean pass, but the fact is you can't say no contact was made, the helmet tells a different story, yet you say it was a clean pass. In my opinion those 2 statements are mutually exclusive.

 

[osbg]

Let me ask the CR's and directors ...

Can there be a "good, clean inside pass" and have contact? Can there be a "good, clean inside pass" and have it be close enough that it is unclear whether there is contact?

 

[JRA]

A clean pass is one that is made within the rules of the group, and doesn't cause the other rider to change their line. Period. Obviously that doesn't involve any contact.

 

[osbg]

JRA;291314 wrote: A clean pass is one that is made within the rules of the group, and doesn't cause the other rider to change their line. Period. Obviously that doesn't involve any contact.

With three CR's endorsing Mr. Yarnell's post, can you see how readers might not come to the same conclusion?

 

[Slow Steve]

I rode NJMP this weekend and have never felt more safe on a track. I'm amazed how my fellow A group riders were fast and in control. Our only mishaps were mechanical. These days can sometimes be a crapshoot and I hope your friend heals quickly. That being said, we are not out there for a Sunday ride through the countryside. This is a high speed and dangerous sport and all of us know it. Every time I pull on my gear I know full well it could be my last through no fault of my own. This is the risk I take. If you don't want to take this risk, then don't.

 

[Otto Man]

osbg;291315 wrote: With three CR's endorsing Mr. Yarnell's post, can you see how readers might not come to the same conclusion?

My two cents:

What the three other CR's are endorsing is not the same thing JRA is trying to say. Yes, JRA is correct - a clean pass means the rider being passed doesn't have to alter his line.

HOWEVER

You can make clean passes all day, leaving only inches from the other rider - But your common sense should prevail and you should know when it's appropiate. If you're a top level AMA rider, and you're battling for first place with points, money, and a championship on the line, then yes, I'd say you make the passes where you can.

But while riding at a track day? No. There's the certain level of respect and common sense every person asks of fellow track day riders. Unfortunately, it can be very hard and complex to legislate common sense into rules.

This past Sunday at NJMP on Lightning, there were SEVERAL A groupers that walked away from me. Every session. And I knew they were behind me because I heard their engines. But, they waited for the appropiate time and location on track to do it. And not once did I even feel remotely unsettled by it. The only thing that pissed me off was that I couldn't keep sight of them 4 or 5 turns later.

You can't legislate a "close pass", because it's a subjective opinion. What I would consider a close pass, and what a common "B" grouper would consider a close pass are two VERY different things.

 

[jcrich]

osbg;291315 wrote: With three CR's endorsing Mr. Yarnell's post, can you see how readers might not come to the same conclusion?

I would say that you and any one else that came to that conclusion did not understand what part of Dave Yarnall's post the CRs were endorsing. Their endorsement was of the general tenor of the post about being prepared, using your head, and not being an idiot making bad decisions out on the track. They were not commenting on whether this incident was a clean pass or not since none of them saw it themselves. Dave also stated that he could not tell if contact was made and in that very brief time what he saw appeared to be a clean pass. That the person who was affected by this incident had paint on their helmet from the offending rider's bike seems to indicate something happened. The fact of the matter is contact is not permitted, this is very plainly spelled out in the Rules and in the Rider's Meeting. There should be absolutely no misunderstanding about that fact.

Fast recovery to the OP's friend and I hope he decides to come back out.

 

[z064life]

jcrich;291323 wrote: I would say that you and any one else that came to that conclusion did not understand what part of Dave Yarnall's post the CRs were endorsing. Their endorsement was of the general tenor of the post about being prepared, using your head, and not being an idiot making bad decisions out on the track. They were not commenting on whether this incident was a clean pass or not since none of them saw it themselves. Dave also stated that he could not tell if contact was made and in that very brief time what he saw appeared to be a clean pass. That the person who was affected by this incident had paint on their helmet from the offending rider's bike seems to indicate something happened. The fact of the matter is contact is not permitted, this is very plainly spelled out in the Rules and in the Rider's Meeting. There should be absolutely no misunderstanding about that fact.

Fast recovery to the OP's friend and I hope he decides to come back out.

I would say the CRs didn't specify what part they were or were not endorcing. How you can assume they were only endorcing a portion is beyond me. I replied specifically agreeing with all of his post EXCEPT that is was a good, clean inside pass considering he couldn't determine if there was contact or not. If it is so close that the line needs to be altered or there is even an indication contact MAY have been made, it isn't a clean pass for a trackday. If you want to ride like that there are MANY race organizations that would be more than happy to have you.

 

[jcrich]

z064life;291335 wrote: I would say the CRs didn't specify what part they were or were not endorcing. How you can assume they were only endorcing a portion is beyond me. I replied specifically agreeing with all of his post EXCEPT that is was a good, clean inside pass considering he couldn't determine if there was contact or not. If it is so close that the line needs to be altered or there is even an indication contact MAY have been made, it isn't a clean pass for a trackday. If you want to ride like that there are MANY race organizations that would be more than happy to have you.

Well common sense has a lot to do with it. additionally since none of them stated they actually saw the incident that would be another indicator. Look I do not wish to get into a pissing match with you. Whether you believe it or not I am on your side here.

 

[bmrboy]

JRA is correct - a clean pass means the rider being passed doesn't have to alter his line.



your common sense should prevail and you should know when it's appropiate. If you're a top level AMA rider, and you're battling for first place with points, money, and a championship on the line, then yes, I'd say you make the passes where you can.

But while riding at a track day? No. There's the certain level of respect and common sense every person asks of fellow track day riders.

wait for the appropiate time and location on track to do it.



Like the above says ...... It's a TRACK DAY ..... To me an inside pass ... is it really necessary ??? what's the point ???
if your that close , another opportunity will surely arise .......

SAFETY , SAFETY , SAFETY .... should always be your primary concern ..... This IS a game of HIGH SPEED CHESS !!!
If you have to think , too much about a pass ...... WAIT !! DON'T DO IT !! Wrong move ... game over .

I have a certain set of standards I've set for myself ... I will not deviate from them ... I will ride my ride ...
There are things I just WILL NOT DO ..... PUTTING ANOTHER RIDER AT RISK or myself for that matter ..

JUST NOT WORTH IT !!!! EVER ....

 

[CBRtist]

bmrboy;291346 wrote: SAFETY , SAFETY , SAFETY .... should always be your primary concern ..... This is NOT a game of HIGH SPEED CHESS !!!
If you have to think , too much about a pass ...... WAIT !! DON'T DO IT !!

It *should* be. However, a majority of conversations (outside of meetings/class) at a Track Day don't necessarily center around safety. It's mostly talking about lap times, stuffing, what the AMA does in the bowl, cheater parts to gain seconds, etc. So it's no surprise when the wrong people with the wrong mindset feel like they have something to prove and bad things happen. Then you have newbies and B Groupers getting in their heads this is how to be and a whole other hot mess is created.

This mentality doesn't just exist at track days, you see this example everywhere in society.

 

[PJZOCC624]

CBRtist;291348 wrote: ... a majority of conversations (outside of meetings/class) at a Track Day don't necessarily center around safety. . . So it's no surprise when the wrong people with the wrong mindset feel like they have something to prove and bad things happen. . .

That's a bit of a stretch. People with the wrong mindset are going to do what they want to do regardless of what you, I, or the CRs preach in regards to safety. And how do you determine who those people are?

Look, I'd like to think I was one of the "safest" riders out there, and fully agree that safety is the #1 priority on the track. But rarely did I have a 20 minute paddock conversation in between sessions that was strictly about safety. Often it was about specific lines through a turn, shaving off a half-second here or there, body position, or gearing. Drawing the conclusion that I wasn't a safe rider because I bemoaned my lap times between sessions would be misleading.

Just sayin'...

 

[bmrboy]

CBRtist;291348 wrote: It *should* be. However, a majority of conversations (outside of meetings/class) at a Track Day don't necessarily center around safety. It's mostly talking about lap times, stuffing, what the AMA does in the bowl, cheater parts to gain seconds, etc. So it's no surprise when the wrong people with the wrong mindset feel like they have something to prove and bad things happen. Then you have newbies and B Groupers getting in their heads this is how to be and a whole other hot mess is created.

This mentality doesn't just exist at track days, you see this example everywhere in society.

Point taken ... YES , It should [pardon my error] ..... Unfortunately in some circles this does happen and that's to bad
And some mind sets will only change when there is an incidence ... I guess that only time & experience is the only
teacher [besides landing on your head].....

As I stated in previous post .... SAFETY , SAFETY , SAFETY .... Should be EVERYONE'S main concern ..... PERIOD !!!
I have my standards , I will NOT deviate ... They have worked for me close to 50 yrs. of riding ......
Some folks just don't get it !!!!!!!!!!!!! opcorn:

 

[Meat]

I know it is all PC to always preach safety like it is a religion, but we really need to keep a bit of realism here. We didn't get into this sport to be safe. If we were all about safety we would have taken up crochet instead.

I'm not trying to have a beef with anyone but I just don't want to go too far off the deep end and too far from reality.

I think of the way I act on the track as being much more courteous than anything else. I don't hit other riders and I try not to make dangerous passes because I am courteous.

 

[CBRtist]

PJZOCC624;291350 wrote: That's a bit of a stretch. People with the wrong mindset are going to do what they want to do regardless of what you, I, or the CRs preach in regards to safety. And how do you determine who those people are?

Agreed and I should have mentioned/emphasized in my post that it's only certain people and they are difficult to point out/control. I wish what BMR posted was what EVERYONE practiced.

Sort of like a warden/guards/prisoners scenario. The prisoners (responsible riders) coexist with the guards (irresponsible riders). Since the warden (CRs) can't see what is going on in every cell all the time, some guards will take advantage of this.

 

[D-Zum]

bmrboy;291346 wrote:


..... This is NOT a game of HIGH SPEED CHESS !!!

Actually it is a game of high speed chess. That's exactly what the original SE Director, Brian Johnson, called it at a Rider's meeting at VIR about 6 or 7 years ago. And as usual Brian was right.

If you're thinking a couple of moves/corners ahead watching traffic unfold ahead of you, which is exactly how chess is played, you should never have to put another rider in any sort of compromising position or situation. You should never really have to resort to a risky inside pass of any sort anywhere.

 

[JRA]

osbg;291315 wrote: With three CR's endorsing Mr. Yarnell's post, can you see how readers might not come to the same conclusion?

No, not at all. Coming to the conclusion that anyone was endorsing what happened here as a clean pass is yet another example of taking this thread to the extreme. The truth is nobody knows for certain what happened, and unless someone comes forward with video it looks like it's going to stay that way.

 

[ninjamansc]

The horse is dead.

The bottom line is, safety is an illusion predicated on the actions of others. Riding on a racetrack (or street) is NOT SAFE!!! We partake of this sport to challenge ourselves mentally and physically. If you've not yet embraced the fact that just by suiting up and riding you may pay the ultimate price, then DON'T RIDE. I and my family have come to terms with this. This may seem extreme, but ignoring it doesn't mean it won't happen. Every time I go out there, I am prepared to accept whatever happens, my fault or not. However, we can all reduce the likelihood of such eventualities by using our heads and applying the Golden Rule. If you don't want it done to you, then don't do it to someone else. Ride to ride again.

 

[bmrboy]

D-Zum;291360 wrote: Actually it is a game of high speed chess. That's exactly what the original SE Director, Brian Johnson, called it at a Rider's meeting at VIR about 6 or 7 years ago. And as usual Brian was right.

If you're thinking a couple of moves/corners ahead watching traffic unfold ahead of you, which is exactly how chess is played, you should never have to put another rider in any sort of compromising position or situation. You should never really have to resort to a risky inside pass of any sort anywhere.

You'll have to excuse my error ....... Yes , it is a game of high speed chess ..... except , it's really not a game ....
The wrong move can cost more than your Knight .....

And you 2 gents[meat] are more than aware of this sports inherent dangers. I know who you guys are , and I believe you know a little about me , We all respect each others point of view , as we should , we believe in track safety
and we willingly except the [calculated] risk ... I'm not much for lawn games [unless I've been drinking] but , golf , tennis
croquette are just too slow ... I hope to keep riding until dementia sets in .....

 

[542]

I wasn't going to wade into this.. but this has gotten a little out of control.
I'm just going to repost some of Dave's post because it was well written, and Dave has been around this stuff long enough to have a PhD in road racing.

dave yarnall;291056 wrote:
I was a pretty good witness to the “indecent” at Thunderbolt the 29th. Here is what I saw and my assessment. I did not get bike #'s, colors or helmet sizes of either riders. I had limited time to see what I saw before I had to turn my head into the turn. The accused, mystery “Knob head” rider, made a good, clean inside pass.... whether contact was made or not I can't honestly say. Was it a close pass, yes. It's the “A” group guys, you have to expect they'll be some close passes sometimes. It appeared the affected got spooked/flinched and stood his bike up. It appeared he had enough room to re-execute the turn but instead he stood it up, rode it off and evidently hit the wall. Honestly I was surprised the red flag was for him. I would have thought he'd had time to re-enter or at a minimum not get to the wall. No judgement here, I've gone off on two wheels and given up valuable time while trying to remember where the rear brake was and had to tuck the front to stay out of the wall...true story !!! None of us can assume to know what split second issues you had to be deal with. Mr r-6 if some of my assertions are wrong, I apologize. One thing I am clear on though, it was a good, clean, yes close, inside pass that you were not ready for when you started your turn in. Hell, I had a Ducati do the same thing to me on the flip right left to the carousel. I started to throw my bike in and wham there he was. Surprised, yes! Did I flinch, absolutely! Did I expect it, god no. But, the big issue here. Was I ready for the possibility? Most definitely, yes!! Part of my mental preparation is to expect the unexpected, it's a race track. The only thing I don't expect when I go out is to be hit from behind. Because I expect my peers to make good decisions up to that point. I can't see behind me only forward, right and left. Within those limits I have some control of my safety as well as others around me.

I think the passing rules have been defined and spoken to in depth in this thread, so I won't rehash any of that. I think everyone agrees it was a bad pass.
However, one aspect that I think could more highlighting: No matter what happens, short of being t-boned, you should not run off track due to a close pass. Even if contact is made, turn the motorcycle. Lean on the guy if you have to, but make the turn. Don't stand it up and guarantee you'll crash.

We all try not to alter the line of the rider we are passing, but we are human and mistakes will happen. It is important that we know it could happen and prepare ourselves to react appropriately. Especially in A group.

I hope all effected heal up quickly, and I'm sorry to see this happen to any one.