NJMP - A little rant (and request for any gopro videos of the crash)
- Thread starter z064life
- Start date
denbsteph
Member
I was going to PM you on this subject, but you are not accepting PM's. So here is my response.
The time I got a good arss chewing is when I was on my Fizzer starting out, ( N and B sticker ) twice in one day. Could I have been asked to leave? Sure. I thanked the CR after the arss chewing and asked him how I was riding, then went on my happy way. I learned from that and I made damn sure I did not do it again, even in B,I and A group, Im conscious of the mistake. I have been riding with NESBA for 2 1/2 years now and enjoy it. If I do not have a good/decent grasp on what is expected by now, then I have missed the boat and deserve to be booted for stupidity. I sit up front at the riders meetings so I get the information that is handed out, I'll listen to it again and again to make sure I'm straight on what is expected.
If I'm not mistaken, this incident happened in "A" group, correct?
When I was at NCBIKE last month, I made an INSIDE pass that I thought was pretty close and I possibly stood dude up. At the restart
( caused by a down cone in the track ) I searched dude out and apologized for an INSIDE pass that I thought may of caused him to stand up. An inside pass that was committed in "A" group. The rider stated, "your good no issues, I thought they were gonna throw a red flag out anyway so I was not at pace"
In "I" group, I spoke with CR's concerning issue's, just like you are supposed to do. Now wether it was handled or not was not my concern, I did what was asked of us to do...........let someone know. Was I supposed to do a follow up to make sure it was handled? Probably not. Did I see the riders out there again? I was not looking for them because I was concerned about my ride, not looking around my shoulder to find dude so I can return the favor.
In "I" group this year there was a rider who was helping / waiting for another rider, looking over their shoulder, waving other riders to move ahead of them. I reported it like we are asked to do. It never got put on the board, it was not necessary. I remembered dude's leathers and stayed clear of em. I did not know the ind he was helping, so I was cautious, made the passes when it was appropriate. I did not do a follow up to find out if the issue was resolved, that is for CR'S to handle.
I have stated on NUMEROUS threads, I like riding with NESBA because of the CONSISTENCY.
I gave my opinion and it is what it is. When I'm out there again and you see me doing some stupid stuff on the track, by all means ask me to leave. I don't need a warning, I should already know by now, because evidently I have been asleep in all the riders meetings for the passed 2 1/2 years. I won't argue with the CR's, SE Asst's or you on the decision, because more than likely, I already know what I did wrong.
I have seen some pretty Authoritative suggestions on this thread and they sound pretty good, IMHO.
The time I got a good arss chewing is when I was on my Fizzer starting out, ( N and B sticker ) twice in one day. Could I have been asked to leave? Sure. I thanked the CR after the arss chewing and asked him how I was riding, then went on my happy way. I learned from that and I made damn sure I did not do it again, even in B,I and A group, Im conscious of the mistake. I have been riding with NESBA for 2 1/2 years now and enjoy it. If I do not have a good/decent grasp on what is expected by now, then I have missed the boat and deserve to be booted for stupidity. I sit up front at the riders meetings so I get the information that is handed out, I'll listen to it again and again to make sure I'm straight on what is expected.
If I'm not mistaken, this incident happened in "A" group, correct?
When I was at NCBIKE last month, I made an INSIDE pass that I thought was pretty close and I possibly stood dude up. At the restart
( caused by a down cone in the track ) I searched dude out and apologized for an INSIDE pass that I thought may of caused him to stand up. An inside pass that was committed in "A" group. The rider stated, "your good no issues, I thought they were gonna throw a red flag out anyway so I was not at pace"
In "I" group, I spoke with CR's concerning issue's, just like you are supposed to do. Now wether it was handled or not was not my concern, I did what was asked of us to do...........let someone know. Was I supposed to do a follow up to make sure it was handled? Probably not. Did I see the riders out there again? I was not looking for them because I was concerned about my ride, not looking around my shoulder to find dude so I can return the favor.
In "I" group this year there was a rider who was helping / waiting for another rider, looking over their shoulder, waving other riders to move ahead of them. I reported it like we are asked to do. It never got put on the board, it was not necessary. I remembered dude's leathers and stayed clear of em. I did not know the ind he was helping, so I was cautious, made the passes when it was appropriate. I did not do a follow up to find out if the issue was resolved, that is for CR'S to handle.
I have stated on NUMEROUS threads, I like riding with NESBA because of the CONSISTENCY.
I gave my opinion and it is what it is. When I'm out there again and you see me doing some stupid stuff on the track, by all means ask me to leave. I don't need a warning, I should already know by now, because evidently I have been asleep in all the riders meetings for the passed 2 1/2 years. I won't argue with the CR's, SE Asst's or you on the decision, because more than likely, I already know what I did wrong.
I have seen some pretty Authoritative suggestions on this thread and they sound pretty good, IMHO.
bmrboy
New Member
This is exactly why I have the utmost respect for JRA , Calvin , Peanut & his CR'S.The way he Captains his ship is fine with me He WILL take care of business ..... He plays no favorites ..... Stepping on his toes is not a very good idea ...
As I said before , JRA , RUNS A TIGHT SHIP !!!! , and I'm very grateful ... The man will do his very best to weed out the trouble
makers !!!!!!!!!!! You can count on that.
boatsnhoes
New Member
Wow I just read this thread from front to back. In my short experience of my first four track days EVER, and with Nesba, including yesterday @ Lightning, last weekend at Thunderbolt - both days, and Summit Main back in August, I have seen safe riding and Wreckless riding. Z06 I hope that your buddy fully recovers.
So far, I see that the CR's have huge responsibilities. And sometimes need to be Judge Dredd. I experienced some questionable close passes and some unsafe riding by others - more close calls than I would like - so I made sure to make a CR aware after it happened. There are two lines that are embedded into my head - "This is not a race," and "Smooth."
Not everyone gets the message. A$$hats were in full effect at Thunderbolt last Sunday. What I have learned in a short period of time in B group? More traffic = more a$$hats. And what's up with all the flies @Thunderbolt and @Lightning? WTF?
And every time I read one of Dave's posts it's like I'm hearing it in his voice, kind of like Morgan Freeman and titty sprinkles.
So far, I see that the CR's have huge responsibilities. And sometimes need to be Judge Dredd. I experienced some questionable close passes and some unsafe riding by others - more close calls than I would like - so I made sure to make a CR aware after it happened. There are two lines that are embedded into my head - "This is not a race," and "Smooth."
Not everyone gets the message. A$$hats were in full effect at Thunderbolt last Sunday. What I have learned in a short period of time in B group? More traffic = more a$$hats. And what's up with all the flies @Thunderbolt and @Lightning? WTF?
And every time I read one of Dave's posts it's like I'm hearing it in his voice, kind of like Morgan Freeman and titty sprinkles.
Titty sprinkles??? Hahaaaaahhaa
We just finished up two great days at lightning. Number of riders, barely less than last Sunday, but you all rode much more curteously. Maybe I need to threaten death by paintball more often.
You guys and girls made it a great event. And because of that, I thank you for ending the season on a good note. Congrats to all that got their bumps and learned what it means to build the skills to earn that bump.
We just finished up two great days at lightning. Number of riders, barely less than last Sunday, but you all rode much more curteously. Maybe I need to threaten death by paintball more often.
You guys and girls made it a great event. And because of that, I thank you for ending the season on a good note. Congrats to all that got their bumps and learned what it means to build the skills to earn that bump.
Isnt there one more event on the NJMP calendar ?Dave561;291025 wrote: Titty sprinkles??? Hahaaaaahhaa
We just finished up two great days at lightning. Number of riders, barely less than last Sunday, but you all rode much more curteously. Maybe I need to threaten death by paintball more often.
You guys and girls made it a great event. And because of that, I thank you for ending the season on a good note. Congrats to all that got their bumps and learned what it means to build the skills to earn that bump.
I hope so, if the weather holds, i was hoping to go
dave yarnall
New Member
"fog"
Ok, I'm gonna surface as “that guy”, who is the missing witness to and try to make some sense of the “incident” at NJMSP... Sunday the 29th.
I will explain my eyewitness account shortly but first, I'd like to share some hard learned thoughts that may help someone.
First and for most, to the guy on the Black r-6 (I only know that from the post) your speedy recovery and return to what I have always characterized as the ultimate grown mans “sand box”. Nothing I can say or try and clarify will take away from the fact of your being the sole recipient of the “pain and suffering “ personally experienced. Many of us have been there and done that. It hurts, it sucks and it can be expensive. The later being the upside. I truly do feel your pain on all levels, as most of us can attest to. It is a most unfortunate possibility to our “addiction”.
I've been involved with road racing for quit some time. By some standards I should retire, but at 62 and having turned a 1:27:95 at Thunderbolt last year, I don't look in the mirror and see rising lap times. I see, how I can learn from my exposure, laps and experience, to lower my lap times, share what I've learned and continue to be safe. Let me be clear on this one obvious point though, going home the way I arrived, happy and in one piece is always the goal, not the lap time. If we think and ride safe, the lap times will come. We're not being paid, it's a hobby!!
I've read all of the verbiage in the “Paddock” regarding this “incident”....it's strong, emotional, testy, challenging, accurate and yes, some inaccurate. Most of all though it's a very emotionally charged thought provoking topic. This can be a good and a bad thing but the common denominator is that we are all thinking about what happened. So think some more, while I rant..
In all of my years, certainly rarely in the race paddock, but for sure in the track day paddock... ( I apologize to the exceptions )...it appears that not much thought is given to the fine edge we ride on out there. We are putting ourselves in a very delicate balance of man, machine and friction to satisfy our own personal needs, you know what yours is, I know what mine is. It doesn't matter whether your a new “B” or in my case, an old “A”....the experience is ours individually to pursue and in that quest, ours to deal with the possible consequences. A personal best lap time, faster then our buddies or just happy to not be confronted with ground hogs or deer on the street.
The CR's are not there to manage your throttle for you, they obviously cannot. They are there for safe crowd control, to make us think until we learn how to manage ourselves and to help us learn those skills necessary and required for the privilege of riding in the “A” group. And yes, I consider it a privilege! The decisions we all make out there, regardless of B, I or A, can affect each and everyone of us. Think about it,,, we bitch in A cause the red flags fly in B or I, when in fact the down time does not come from the group and hey I'm fine with that. We pay a lot of $ to ride,...so we want our track time and don’t want our time to be penalized by a red flag. So lets fix it!! No red flags, no down time, simple concept.
The CR's are an amazing, selfless, dedicated bunch of expert riders whose mission, aside from “crowd control”, is to help feed you your addiction, assess what you are learning and help you improve with the by-product of sending you home safe. They cannot make your own individual micro-split-second decisions for you. It's your brain alone telling your right hand, throttle and brake when to act to stay on two wheels. No one can make those decisions for you. Think about it..they not only have to ride within their own safe limits but they have to assess and manage all of us as well. Let me underscore what no one is saying...they ARE NOT responsible for our own individual well being!!!!!! They are teachers and track guidance councilors. They can not control our destiny. We alone, for the most part, control that by our own decisions. If they could control out comes there would never be a red flag!! Mike Moore, one of the most prolific teachers, advocates of safety and directors our club has had, lost his life here 2 years ago x month. Mike was, if nothing else, all about safety first. We/he talked about it all the time. “How do we share the experience and the addiction without the pain or the possible consequence”. Mike lost his life doing what he loved, for no definable reason. No one should suffer the ultimate consequence doing what they love, but in this sport, it is a possibility. He knew it, you know it, we all know it. So...how do we cut our losses...think guys...think...”this ain't golf”!!!! It starts within, individually. Bike prep and rider prep. I contemplate every session, every lap.... every time. I talk to my buddies about it between sessions.What did you see, experience, feel, do, wanna do... Literally, my life depends on it, yours does to. Think...!!!
Bike prep, the easy aspect, but in know way a small part. You can be the best rider in the world but if water or oil don't stay in the machine and funny thing, tire pressures aren't right, it will upset your day and possibly many others...make sure your bike is in order!! Tech is a quick overview not the end all to what is happening every session. Things come loose when we least expect it, so between sessions keep reviewing your bike to be sure something isn't starting to happen that could conclude at an untimely..... 140mph !! I'd go off on suspension tuning as part of bike prep but spring rates, ride height, compression, rebound, sag etc. is a whole world in of itself. I'll just say it's important so if you aren't thinking about it, you should!
Rider prep. To all, I ask, how much time do you really give to the mental and physical aspect that constitutes, ”rider prep”? Lap times..the bench mark of qualified efficiency. Entry, apex, exit, braking...define it any way you want. The better the lap time, the better we executed. We all want to be quicker and lower our lap times, it defines our abilities and experience level not to mention where we stand in the “big dog contest”. If you don't have a lap timer, I personally think you should get one. It's not a race thing, but it is the only way of gauging improvement. If you are not concerned about improving, your not thinking. If your not thinking, your not as safe as you could be..are you getting my drift?? Think guys think!!Ok, you can bag the lap timer, but don't stop thinking, especially about improving...
Look, I am not the guru of road racing by any stretch, but aside from being an ambassador of the sport, I am a never ending student. Why? It should be obvious, my life, and certainly reducing my aches and pains depend on it!! I realize shit happens, but I can reduce the odds if I am always prepared.
All of my ranting, thought sharing, is leading up to this>>>
I was a pretty good witness to the “indecent” at Thunderbolt the 29th. Here is what I saw and my assessment. I did not get bike #'s, colors or helmet sizes of either riders. I had limited time to see what I saw before I had to turn my head into the turn. The accused, mystery “Knob head” rider, made a good, clean inside pass.... whether contact was made or not I can't honestly say. Was it a close pass, yes. It's the “A” group guys, you have to expect they'll be some close passes sometimes. It appeared the affected got spooked/flinched and stood his bike up. It appeared he had enough room to re-execute the turn but instead he stood it up, rode it off and evidently hit the wall. Honestly I was surprised the red flag was for him. I would have thought he'd had time to re-enter or at a minimum not get to the wall. No judgement here, I've gone off on two wheels and given up valuable time while trying to remember where the rear brake was and had to tuck the front to stay out of the wall...true story !!! None of us can assume to know what split second issues you had to be deal with. Mr r-6 if some of my assertions are wrong, I apologize. One thing I am clear on though, it was a good, clean, yes close, inside pass that you were not ready for when you started your turn in. Hell, I had a Ducati do the same thing to me on the flip right left to the carousel. I started to throw my bike in and wham there he was. Surprised, yes! Did I flinch, absolutely! Did I expect it, god no. But, the big issue here. Was I ready for the possibility? Most definitely, yes!! Part of my mental preparation is to expect the unexpected, it's a race track. The only thing I don't expect when I go out is to be hit from behind. Because I expect my peers to make good decisions up to that point. I can't see behind me only forward, right and left. Within those limits I have some control of my safety as well as others around me.
So, for what all of this was worth, that's what I saw and that's what I think. If all of this helps anyone great, if it doesn't that's fine too but remember, because I took the time to think about all of this and convey my thoughts, it'll help me be a better rider the next time out, because I'm thinking......I never stop thinking!!
Mr R-6, heal quickly, get back out there. Don't take any of this or any other arm chair opinion personally. It can be a steep learning curve sometime but draw from it if you love the sport and want to continue.
To all the CR's, thank you so very much for the dedication and the selfless time you give to this great sport. Without you we couldn't play in this wonderful “sand box” we call “road racing”.
To my collective A, I and B peers, speed safely and don't stop thinking, please!!
See you out there soon!!
Dave Yarnall
#177
WERA/CCS/ASRA expert...and yes....student!!
Ok, I'm gonna surface as “that guy”, who is the missing witness to and try to make some sense of the “incident” at NJMSP... Sunday the 29th.
I will explain my eyewitness account shortly but first, I'd like to share some hard learned thoughts that may help someone.
First and for most, to the guy on the Black r-6 (I only know that from the post) your speedy recovery and return to what I have always characterized as the ultimate grown mans “sand box”. Nothing I can say or try and clarify will take away from the fact of your being the sole recipient of the “pain and suffering “ personally experienced. Many of us have been there and done that. It hurts, it sucks and it can be expensive. The later being the upside. I truly do feel your pain on all levels, as most of us can attest to. It is a most unfortunate possibility to our “addiction”.
I've been involved with road racing for quit some time. By some standards I should retire, but at 62 and having turned a 1:27:95 at Thunderbolt last year, I don't look in the mirror and see rising lap times. I see, how I can learn from my exposure, laps and experience, to lower my lap times, share what I've learned and continue to be safe. Let me be clear on this one obvious point though, going home the way I arrived, happy and in one piece is always the goal, not the lap time. If we think and ride safe, the lap times will come. We're not being paid, it's a hobby!!
I've read all of the verbiage in the “Paddock” regarding this “incident”....it's strong, emotional, testy, challenging, accurate and yes, some inaccurate. Most of all though it's a very emotionally charged thought provoking topic. This can be a good and a bad thing but the common denominator is that we are all thinking about what happened. So think some more, while I rant..
In all of my years, certainly rarely in the race paddock, but for sure in the track day paddock... ( I apologize to the exceptions )...it appears that not much thought is given to the fine edge we ride on out there. We are putting ourselves in a very delicate balance of man, machine and friction to satisfy our own personal needs, you know what yours is, I know what mine is. It doesn't matter whether your a new “B” or in my case, an old “A”....the experience is ours individually to pursue and in that quest, ours to deal with the possible consequences. A personal best lap time, faster then our buddies or just happy to not be confronted with ground hogs or deer on the street.
The CR's are not there to manage your throttle for you, they obviously cannot. They are there for safe crowd control, to make us think until we learn how to manage ourselves and to help us learn those skills necessary and required for the privilege of riding in the “A” group. And yes, I consider it a privilege! The decisions we all make out there, regardless of B, I or A, can affect each and everyone of us. Think about it,,, we bitch in A cause the red flags fly in B or I, when in fact the down time does not come from the group and hey I'm fine with that. We pay a lot of $ to ride,...so we want our track time and don’t want our time to be penalized by a red flag. So lets fix it!! No red flags, no down time, simple concept.
The CR's are an amazing, selfless, dedicated bunch of expert riders whose mission, aside from “crowd control”, is to help feed you your addiction, assess what you are learning and help you improve with the by-product of sending you home safe. They cannot make your own individual micro-split-second decisions for you. It's your brain alone telling your right hand, throttle and brake when to act to stay on two wheels. No one can make those decisions for you. Think about it..they not only have to ride within their own safe limits but they have to assess and manage all of us as well. Let me underscore what no one is saying...they ARE NOT responsible for our own individual well being!!!!!! They are teachers and track guidance councilors. They can not control our destiny. We alone, for the most part, control that by our own decisions. If they could control out comes there would never be a red flag!! Mike Moore, one of the most prolific teachers, advocates of safety and directors our club has had, lost his life here 2 years ago x month. Mike was, if nothing else, all about safety first. We/he talked about it all the time. “How do we share the experience and the addiction without the pain or the possible consequence”. Mike lost his life doing what he loved, for no definable reason. No one should suffer the ultimate consequence doing what they love, but in this sport, it is a possibility. He knew it, you know it, we all know it. So...how do we cut our losses...think guys...think...”this ain't golf”!!!! It starts within, individually. Bike prep and rider prep. I contemplate every session, every lap.... every time. I talk to my buddies about it between sessions.What did you see, experience, feel, do, wanna do... Literally, my life depends on it, yours does to. Think...!!!
Bike prep, the easy aspect, but in know way a small part. You can be the best rider in the world but if water or oil don't stay in the machine and funny thing, tire pressures aren't right, it will upset your day and possibly many others...make sure your bike is in order!! Tech is a quick overview not the end all to what is happening every session. Things come loose when we least expect it, so between sessions keep reviewing your bike to be sure something isn't starting to happen that could conclude at an untimely..... 140mph !! I'd go off on suspension tuning as part of bike prep but spring rates, ride height, compression, rebound, sag etc. is a whole world in of itself. I'll just say it's important so if you aren't thinking about it, you should!
Rider prep. To all, I ask, how much time do you really give to the mental and physical aspect that constitutes, ”rider prep”? Lap times..the bench mark of qualified efficiency. Entry, apex, exit, braking...define it any way you want. The better the lap time, the better we executed. We all want to be quicker and lower our lap times, it defines our abilities and experience level not to mention where we stand in the “big dog contest”. If you don't have a lap timer, I personally think you should get one. It's not a race thing, but it is the only way of gauging improvement. If you are not concerned about improving, your not thinking. If your not thinking, your not as safe as you could be..are you getting my drift?? Think guys think!!Ok, you can bag the lap timer, but don't stop thinking, especially about improving...
Look, I am not the guru of road racing by any stretch, but aside from being an ambassador of the sport, I am a never ending student. Why? It should be obvious, my life, and certainly reducing my aches and pains depend on it!! I realize shit happens, but I can reduce the odds if I am always prepared.
All of my ranting, thought sharing, is leading up to this>>>
I was a pretty good witness to the “indecent” at Thunderbolt the 29th. Here is what I saw and my assessment. I did not get bike #'s, colors or helmet sizes of either riders. I had limited time to see what I saw before I had to turn my head into the turn. The accused, mystery “Knob head” rider, made a good, clean inside pass.... whether contact was made or not I can't honestly say. Was it a close pass, yes. It's the “A” group guys, you have to expect they'll be some close passes sometimes. It appeared the affected got spooked/flinched and stood his bike up. It appeared he had enough room to re-execute the turn but instead he stood it up, rode it off and evidently hit the wall. Honestly I was surprised the red flag was for him. I would have thought he'd had time to re-enter or at a minimum not get to the wall. No judgement here, I've gone off on two wheels and given up valuable time while trying to remember where the rear brake was and had to tuck the front to stay out of the wall...true story !!! None of us can assume to know what split second issues you had to be deal with. Mr r-6 if some of my assertions are wrong, I apologize. One thing I am clear on though, it was a good, clean, yes close, inside pass that you were not ready for when you started your turn in. Hell, I had a Ducati do the same thing to me on the flip right left to the carousel. I started to throw my bike in and wham there he was. Surprised, yes! Did I flinch, absolutely! Did I expect it, god no. But, the big issue here. Was I ready for the possibility? Most definitely, yes!! Part of my mental preparation is to expect the unexpected, it's a race track. The only thing I don't expect when I go out is to be hit from behind. Because I expect my peers to make good decisions up to that point. I can't see behind me only forward, right and left. Within those limits I have some control of my safety as well as others around me.
So, for what all of this was worth, that's what I saw and that's what I think. If all of this helps anyone great, if it doesn't that's fine too but remember, because I took the time to think about all of this and convey my thoughts, it'll help me be a better rider the next time out, because I'm thinking......I never stop thinking!!
Mr R-6, heal quickly, get back out there. Don't take any of this or any other arm chair opinion personally. It can be a steep learning curve sometime but draw from it if you love the sport and want to continue.
To all the CR's, thank you so very much for the dedication and the selfless time you give to this great sport. Without you we couldn't play in this wonderful “sand box” we call “road racing”.
To my collective A, I and B peers, speed safely and don't stop thinking, please!!
See you out there soon!!
Dave Yarnall
#177
WERA/CCS/ASRA expert...and yes....student!!
HondaGalToo
Control Rider
Great post, Dave, thanks!
I have been reluctant to contribute to this thread for fear of adding to the "burn them at the stake" mentality. I'm not taking sides, but perception is all too often some people's reality.
Mr. Yarnall, that is perhaps the most coherent, well-thought take on not only what happened, but on track riding in general. It should be required reading for everyone.
Mr. Yarnall, that is perhaps the most coherent, well-thought take on not only what happened, but on track riding in general. It should be required reading for everyone.
Lenny ZX9R
Control Rider
:agree: Spot on Dave! Like Wendy said, This should be required reading for everyone who rides the track!
LesPow
Control Rider
Great post Dave, good read. I'm still trying to catch you BTW, I'm haunted by my inner voice saying, "OK, this lap"!! Haha. Oh well the gap just got bigger. It is obvious your skills and prosperity are attributed to Thinking, and consideration for your fellow track day comrades. I hope that everyone reads your post esp. the riders at NJMP on the 29th. Thinking is contagious.
z064Life sorry that your friend had an unfortunate incident. Wishing him a speedy recovery and return to the track.
z064Life sorry that your friend had an unfortunate incident. Wishing him a speedy recovery and return to the track.