Trail braking Advice for NJMP

[LesPow]

correct me if i'm wrong here but what I feel like you are describing to fahdee is basically trail braking . uh with your eyes up!!! I doubt you remember les cuz I was in B group at the time but you spent 2 sessions with me on picking my head up . It was at NYST last summer ! It made such a difference . Great big fat guy 6'6" 300lbs really good looking .
To be honest it all started with me making an illegal pass

JimmyW, is on a buttered roll, ba dap bap, ching! Haha....
I remember you BigJimmyW, how could I forget, so handsome.....

Where you look plays a huge part in everything and unbeknownst to the rider, the source of the problem. So we start where we look, then move from there.

 

[Pseudolus]

Happy Monday Fahdee,
There are many things you can do to help this process, so lets start with getting your body in the proper position before braking, then find out what are your eyes doing.

Thank you Les! You've made me realize the problem may be I don't have a turn in point. I'm really only looking at the runoff area to determine if I'll be able to slow down before it and then I turn in looking straight from runoff to apex. I'm skipping a step with my eyes. Thank you sir!

Fahdee,

When using trail braking technique properly, entering a turn and approaching the apex will be a smoother and more controlled affair. Don't try to learn everything in just a few laps or a session, it will take time. You're at a point where attention to your brake marker is absolutely essential. From your marker, release smoothly and gradually until you reach the apex of a corner (whatever that is for the corner at hand). When I started, I found myself saying, "shit... the bike has stopped and I haven't even reached the apex". So... I slowly moved my marker(s) further down until it felt right.

We felt this topic was important enough to make it one of our first blog entries: http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/ - compliments of Nick.

Thanks Rob! Am I reading it right that you have a marker for when to begin easing up on the brakes? I'm trying to understand why most of my attention is on strengthening the pressure on the brakes at the end of the straight while your comments are focused on the release. Very interesting. So is the way to think about this: marker for initial braking, marker to begin easing up, marker for turn in, trailing to apex from the time you hit the brake release marker?

Reading that excellent blog, a question comes to mind. Is the slowest point in the turn always the apex? Truly appreciate the help!!!!! Now to read the blog a second time.....

 

[rob92]

Try to think of the time you begin applying the brakes to the apex as one continuous motion. I have my initial marker, tip in, and continue trailing to apex. Other than understanding the mechanics and concept of trail braking, you will simply need seat time to hash it all out. Like many people, the ah-ha moment will come quickly. I can't speak for everyone, but many of us who started this practice came to the realize that the bike was stopping well before the apex and needing to re-adjust our brains. In very simply terms, you're braking a little less, but for a longer period.

 

[Pseudolus]

Try to think of the time you begin applying the brakes to the apex as one continuous motion. I have my initial marker, tip in, and continue trailing to apex.

Thanks Rob! I'm visualizing NJMP and it looks like I do this exactly as you're saying for the very fast turns only. I'm disjointed for turn 1 and the slow left hander after wheelie hill (5?). I'm guessing because I need more lean angle for those, I'm getting all of my braking done before tip in to avoid losing the front. I'll start with baby steps to come in trailing on those while getting my eyes/reference points fixed as well. THANK YOU!!!

 

[motorkas]

Disclaimer. . .purely "big brother" perspective: leave trail braking for 5 for an "oh shit moment" or racing. . .there's a reason why most of the crashes at NJMP are at the left handers. . .you have a plethera of right handers to work with to practice trail braking where you already have your vision right and you don't have to worry about temps on the right side of the front tire. Personally, I'd do 3 and 7 first - 3 you trail to help negate the bump going into it (I have been trying (and failing miserably) to have 5-10% brakes when I hit the bump at entry - which is a great visceral feedback to let you know you still should be on the brakes) 7 is harder braking than 3 to help you build up to 1. You already have your brake marker for 1, start off by using 5% less brakes and build to less brakes until dialed in when you've finished with 3 and 7.

You trail into 5 and lose the front end. . .I'm forwarding mom and dad the link to this page so they know it wasn't my fault.

 

[borislav]

Kas you can't pick corner where you'll trail brake and then pick one where you're not!!!You HAVE TO trail brake in all of them except sweepers!!!

 

[motorkas]

Dave's on an SV now, have to make it interesting or it gets boring passing him all the time. . .

 

[rob92]

At the risk of sounding like a trail braking spokesperson, don't over think it and try doing it in all corners. Keep in mind that adding even just a little trail brake helps change the geometry of the bike and you're also loading the front tire which is arguably safer. Just do a little bit at a time and feel the effects for yourself. Last thing I'll add is that while I make the comment that trail braking helps to load the front tire, be cognizant that abrupt release quickly unloads the tire and could result in washing the front tire.

Again, my opinion, but when I see folks losing it in the left handers, I feel it's the result of too much lean angle or abruptness and not a result of trail braking or heating imbalance. Smooth is always key.

 

[motorkas]

At the risk of sounding like a trail braking spokesperson, don't over think it and try doing it in all corners. Keep in mind that adding even just a little trail brake helps change the geometry of the bike and you're also loading the front tire which is arguably safer. Just do a little bit at a time and feel the effects for yourself. Last thing I'll add is that while I make the comment that trail braking helps to load the front tire, be cognizant that abrupt release quickly unloads the tire and could result in washing the front tire.

Again, my opinion, but when I see folks losing it in the left handers, I feel it's the result of too much lean angle or abruptness and not a result of trail braking or heating imbalance. Smooth is always key.

Thanks Rob. . .sometimes the worrying get's the best of me. I actually really like the thought that loading the front is arguably safer. Makes perfect sense. Can definitely attest to the negative effects of abruptly releasing the brakes and feeling the whole front end pop up vs getting it right and when releasing the front stays set. . .I'm personally trying to get it 50/50 now (currently at 40% right/ 60% wrong).

 

[Dave561]

Dave's on an SV now, have to make it interesting or it gets boring passing him all the time. . .

Buwhhahhaaahhhaaaa. Ummm, you need tostop watching the vids in rewind.

 

[Dave561]

The SV has forced me to trail brake everywhere. In fact its essential to a good lap time on a lesser powered bike.

 

[Pseudolus]

Question. If you're only at 10% brake, can an abrupt release cause you to wash the front? Or is it more like in the 30% or higher range?

 

[HondaGalToo]

Question. If you're only at 10% brake, can an abrupt release cause you to wash the front? Or is it more like in the 30% or higher range?

I would think any. First of all, you don't want to be trail braking at 10 or 30%. You really only want to be at 1-2%. Any abrupt movement can cause a loss of traction. The tires can handle a significant load; they cannot handle an abrupt load. Ease off the brakes slowly, progressively; the same as you progressively squeeze them on.

 

[JimmyW]

WOW !!!! I have no idea how the phuck you guys can actually think about all this shit as your riding and going through corners ! I swear that I find it so impressive and then on top of it all you can wash the tires too !!! Not me man . There is no way I could find time to wash the front tire unless I bring Pit Bitch ( aka Jadsta ) with me

 

[andykurz]

As Dave mentioned, slow bikes will force you to trail brake to keep up with larger bikes. If you can ever come out and race the mini bikes with us, you will be trail braking that same day and you will understand and be addicted to it. Once you start trail braking, you will trail brake all the time.

Check it out: njminigp.com. Ask Dave how he liked it!

Otherwise, you can experiment slowly with it out on the big track, but it will take more time. Start trail braking straight up and down, then start moving your marker deeper and deeper.

 

[andykurz]

Dont forget this famous diagram:

 

[Dave561]

As Dave mentioned, slow bikes will force you to trail brake to keep up with larger bikes. If you can ever come out and race the mini bikes with us, you will be trail braking that same day and you will understand and be addicted to it. Once you start trail braking, you will trail brake all the time.

Check it out: njminigp.com. Ask Dave how he liked it!

Otherwise, you can experiment slowly with it out on the big track, but it will take more time. Start trail braking straight up and down, then start moving your marker deeper and deeper.

MiniGP was a lot of fun and the same skills do apply, but at a slower speed. In fact I crashed trail braking a little too long and laughed my a $$ off in the process. I would suggest more than two riders on a 4hr race but we took third place.

 

[motorkas]

Dont forget this famous diagram:

To everyone, it looks like you're at 50% braking at turn in - and letting off till apex in this diagram. . .is this more or less what everyone else is doing? I'm not even close to 50% at turn in and more often than not completely done before the apex. . .

 

[andykurz]

I think that is probably what Marquez is doing, maybe subtract 10% or more from all of those for the rest of us. It's not a perfect science, but the concept is sound: hard braking while straight up and down, tip in with light and decreasing pressure up to the apex.

 

[Slow Steve]

To everyone, it looks like you're at 50% braking at turn in - and letting off till apex in this diagram. . .is this more or less what everyone else is doing? I'm not even close to 50% at turn in and more often than not completely done before the apex. . .

And that would explain why I'm able to pass you the way I do!