EngineNoO9
Member
:notsure:
7/6/09 Main B Group Crash - Inside Pass?
- Thread starter x7tristan
- Start date
I did leave one important thing out. I wanted to thank Barry and the guy on the red Gixxer 1000 for saving my day in the last session. What could have been just an incredibly crappy day was saved by thier spirited ride through the last session with me in tow. That's what I come out for.
Thank You.
Thank You.
I didn't mean it to sound so black and white. I consider good judgment to be a skill, to be developed like all others. Skills are developed by experience and practice, including making mistakes. (In my experience, failure is a better teacher than success.) So when I say more skill is necessary, in the example I was referencing, better judgement in assessing the situation was the lacking skill I was referring to.
None of us are perfect. All of us can improve, no matter what level we are at. That's why we are at the track in the first place, right?
My harsh tone is more in reaction to ppl who say some actions are justified by a lack of skill or judgment. We all will find ourselves in situations where our skill set (ability to see, process, and react in a proper manner) is stretched to the limit [i.e. riding over our heads], and sometimes we make bad choices. I've done it, and most of us have or will as well. I hope that when I'm in that situation (again), my choices will at worst do damage only to myself, and spare the others I'm sharing the track with.
Lack of skill (or judgment) is not a justification or an excuse for doing dumb stuff, merely an explanation, and an opportunity to learn and improve.
The world is pretty much all gray. That doesn't prevent us from setting high personal standards and learning to make better choices. :cheers:
Geoff Doyer
New Member
Heal up quick Paul
Fastguy
Member
Was that the guy who made the first comment, when asked for responses, in the afternoon session? If it is, that guy was upset with Nesba for ending his day prematurely!
I think Nesba needs to plant "undercover" CR's in the group to "police" riders making such reckless moves especially in the afternoon sessions when the pace generally picks ups.
I don't know about any of you fellow B group riders but I love the B group! Nesba will have to drag me out of B group kicking and screaming!
Joe Vital
Member
They have been known to do just this thing.
But in the end it is our, the riders, club and peer pressure may be an effective approach in weeding out the riders that refuse to pay attention to the "NESBA Way". If one of your riding buddies rides like a asshole, tell him (or her). Most likely they will respond, if they don't find new riding buddies. And don't hesitate to rat them out to a Director.
I have and will without hesitation.
Blueberry
New Member
As a fellow B rider at Summit yesterday I apologize to both Paul and Steve for not going to the CR's or to the rider himself to discuss the rider's actions earlier in the day. From the first lap of the day this rider was breaking every passing rule with little to no regard for anyone else out there. Based on his speed on the track he is an "experienced" rider and I'm about 99% sure it is the same guy that explained to all of us that morning in the classroom he is also a long time Summit corner worker. IMO he knew exactly what he was doing and chose to ignore the rules. This incident was not a "could happen", but simply a "when and how bad will it be?".
I know this sport has it's obvious dangers which I readily accept but being on the track with this guy was really the first time I've ever actually felt unsafe.
My lesson here is to never again do what I'm doing now; writing about it Tuesday when I could have done something about it yesterday.
Heal fast Paul!
I know this sport has it's obvious dangers which I readily accept but being on the track with this guy was really the first time I've ever actually felt unsafe.
My lesson here is to never again do what I'm doing now; writing about it Tuesday when I could have done something about it yesterday.
Heal fast Paul!
Twiztedjester55
New Member
It was the guy who is a MARRC corner worker, he was quick in the straights but no so good in the corners. I talked to him right after the first session about the rules he broke and he said he thought they said we could pass from turns 1-4 and I told him he couldn't and the next session I didn't see him out there but one of the CR's had a talk with him about breaking rules during the second session.
CoolTall1
New Member
PLAIN AND SIMPLE
Our rules should be more strict. You should be asked to leave with the first offense unless you convince the head CR otherwise. I think having personally seen CR's give warnings and then members blowing it off it seems to me that the culture in the NESBA paddock is simply to relaxed. It should be "break the rules and your done for the day" Period! If you have one hell of a good excuse than maybe you keep riding. If you don't like the rules than ride and crash with someone else.
Our rules should be more strict. You should be asked to leave with the first offense unless you convince the head CR otherwise. I think having personally seen CR's give warnings and then members blowing it off it seems to me that the culture in the NESBA paddock is simply to relaxed. It should be "break the rules and your done for the day" Period! If you have one hell of a good excuse than maybe you keep riding. If you don't like the rules than ride and crash with someone else.
barry38
Member
I was the B captain at Main yesterday. The individual in question had be counseled by several CR's (including me) following previous sessions. After this incident, three different rider's who witnessed this incident came to me (separately) and described what happened. Their stories were consistant. The rider in question attempted a pass in the corner and caused the accident. Geoff Doyer came to me, he had also been given same info as me. He told me the offending rider was done for the day. I completely agreed with his decision, and if he had not come to me, I would have gone to him with the same recommendation.
I had a conversation with the rider, BobbyG was present for duration. I'm not going to repeat the discussion here, it was in my opinion a private matter. If the offending rider wants to comment, that's his right.
I know for a fact that Geoff went over passing and safety rules during the general rider's meeting. I went over them again in the B group morning meeting. I restated them again at the lunch meeting. There should have be absolutely no question in anyones mind in the B group as to when and when you could pass.
Here's how I see it. Track days are designed to give people the opportunity to explore their personal limits in a NON-COMPETATIVE envionment. I know this may be hard to believe, but not everyone wants to be the next Rossi. Some of us just get a kick out of flogging a sportbike as hard as we want to in a controlled environment. Some of us just like hanging out and helping others get the most out of their track day experience. If you want to be competative, go racing. If you want to push past your limits, go racing. f you want to make out of control passes or take other un-necesary chances, go racing. If what you want is COMPETITION, go racing.
I really don't care how fast someone is or isn't, because at a track day, it doesn't matter. I don't give a shit about lap times. I don't care if your riding a stock 250 Ninja, or a fully race prepped Ducati 1098R, my job is to help YOU, the members enjoy a safe and fun day at the track. The last thing I want to see happen is you wad up you bike, and potentially get hurt, or worse end up dead. As we saw yesterday with our friends, Brian Johnson, and Jeff Pitzer, shit can go wrong in a hurry and bad things can happen. I'm just glad that this incident was not worse for the rider's who crashed as a result of a bad decision.
During my 3 hour ride home last night I kept wondering if there was something I could have done that may have prevented this incident form occuring. We all know hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not really the type who second guesses himself. I don't like being a dick. I don't like sitting people out a session. I really don't like sending people home. It's ashame it had to come to that yesterday. I'd like to think when I, or another CR tells someone thier riding over thier hear, or not following the rules, they need to slow it done, etc, they will fucking listen. I've beeing riding motorcycles for over 37 years. I've been an MSF/Rider's Edge rider coach. I've been doing track days for over 5 years. I've been a CR for 3. I don't talk because I like to hear myself speak. I do this for one reason, it's the satisfaction I get from helping others enjoy a sport I've loved since I was a kid. It's that simple.
I make this promise to our members. I will do my best to make your day at the race track a good one. And if someone doesn't want to play by the rules, if they don't want listen, if they are out of control, I will do my best to correct that behavior. And if they choose not to correct the behavior, I will make sure their day is done.
Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has errors in judgement, bad things will still happen. Keep your ego in check and show respect to yourself and your fellow rider's. Do YOUR best to make not only your day a good one, but to make EVERYONE'S day a good one.
I had a conversation with the rider, BobbyG was present for duration. I'm not going to repeat the discussion here, it was in my opinion a private matter. If the offending rider wants to comment, that's his right.
I know for a fact that Geoff went over passing and safety rules during the general rider's meeting. I went over them again in the B group morning meeting. I restated them again at the lunch meeting. There should have be absolutely no question in anyones mind in the B group as to when and when you could pass.
Here's how I see it. Track days are designed to give people the opportunity to explore their personal limits in a NON-COMPETATIVE envionment. I know this may be hard to believe, but not everyone wants to be the next Rossi. Some of us just get a kick out of flogging a sportbike as hard as we want to in a controlled environment. Some of us just like hanging out and helping others get the most out of their track day experience. If you want to be competative, go racing. If you want to push past your limits, go racing. f you want to make out of control passes or take other un-necesary chances, go racing. If what you want is COMPETITION, go racing.
I really don't care how fast someone is or isn't, because at a track day, it doesn't matter. I don't give a shit about lap times. I don't care if your riding a stock 250 Ninja, or a fully race prepped Ducati 1098R, my job is to help YOU, the members enjoy a safe and fun day at the track. The last thing I want to see happen is you wad up you bike, and potentially get hurt, or worse end up dead. As we saw yesterday with our friends, Brian Johnson, and Jeff Pitzer, shit can go wrong in a hurry and bad things can happen. I'm just glad that this incident was not worse for the rider's who crashed as a result of a bad decision.
During my 3 hour ride home last night I kept wondering if there was something I could have done that may have prevented this incident form occuring. We all know hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not really the type who second guesses himself. I don't like being a dick. I don't like sitting people out a session. I really don't like sending people home. It's ashame it had to come to that yesterday. I'd like to think when I, or another CR tells someone thier riding over thier hear, or not following the rules, they need to slow it done, etc, they will fucking listen. I've beeing riding motorcycles for over 37 years. I've been an MSF/Rider's Edge rider coach. I've been doing track days for over 5 years. I've been a CR for 3. I don't talk because I like to hear myself speak. I do this for one reason, it's the satisfaction I get from helping others enjoy a sport I've loved since I was a kid. It's that simple.
I make this promise to our members. I will do my best to make your day at the race track a good one. And if someone doesn't want to play by the rules, if they don't want listen, if they are out of control, I will do my best to correct that behavior. And if they choose not to correct the behavior, I will make sure their day is done.
Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has errors in judgement, bad things will still happen. Keep your ego in check and show respect to yourself and your fellow rider's. Do YOUR best to make not only your day a good one, but to make EVERYONE'S day a good one.
Twiztedjester55
New Member
Well said Barry
jls223
New Member
Dude, I was right behind the rider with the camera. He cut under the lead rider and hit him. Then the second rider seemed to get target fixation on the first and flipped his bike over the first. :doh:
The worst freakin part was the rider who caused it all went through the gravel, kept it up and then came back on the track. It only gets better. Then he trys to come back on the race line with gravel on his tires and nearly did a Biaggi on me! :argh:
Oh and then after the red flag came out some rider missed the pit in at 10 and cut across the grass in front of me at the tower. Between that and the butt chewin over those who missed the red flag, my day just wasn't right after that. :banghead:
D-Zum
My 13 year old is faster than your President
First...Barry, BobbyG, & Geoff, thanks for sending this guy home. Give him a chance at redemption, but don't forget him. Keep a running record of riders you send home for riding like this. If they EVER do it again..ban them. Hell, I'll give the idiot his pro-rated membership refund myself. NESBA's staff is just fantastic!
That pass is bullshit in any group. Even in A this is a stretch. There are no excuses. I've been around NESBA a long time, I've seen these BBS debates and point blank there are NO lines of ambiguity when it comes to safety in our sport. NONE. And part of focusing on safety is the decision making processes of each and every rider on the course. None of us wants to be the reason Paul's at home healing because Paul would not want to do that to us...it's mutual respect.
The rider causing this incident needs to rethink what track days are all about, adapt a track day mentality, or as Barry said, "Go Racing". This isn't MARRC, WERA, or CCS..this is NESBA.
I found myself in a similar scenario more than once in I group yesterday. Coming up on slower traffic doesn't mean you slow down, in my opinion, it means you exercise patience. Brian Johnson himself said in a rider's meeting once, "This is not an adrenaline sport, it's high speed chess." And he's right. If you're a fast rider coming up on slower riders in a group a little bunched up, you don't slow down..you plan your strategy to get through safely and cleanly as many moves ahead as you can. It's not hard, it may cost you your chance winning NESBA Superpole for your group for that day, but oh well...it's a TRACK DAY. There are no prizes for "winning".
I came up on 3 riders at least once going into T3 yesterday. I didn't dive up the inside on all three of them at once in T3. I took a line that allowed me to get the last rider at the exit of three, then I stayed on the next rider and took him after 4 on the shoot into 5, then patiently followed the lead rider of the pack through 6,7,8, and 9, then passed him or her before the bridge. Then I was free to go through 10 and go about my buisness. Yeah, it took me like half a lap, but who gives a damn? I didn't ruin there day, and in no way did these guys ruin mine.
Also, sometimes when you're patient and studying other riders there's also the possibility you may indeed actually LEARN something from another rider. Imagine that!
That pass is bullshit in any group. Even in A this is a stretch. There are no excuses. I've been around NESBA a long time, I've seen these BBS debates and point blank there are NO lines of ambiguity when it comes to safety in our sport. NONE. And part of focusing on safety is the decision making processes of each and every rider on the course. None of us wants to be the reason Paul's at home healing because Paul would not want to do that to us...it's mutual respect.
The rider causing this incident needs to rethink what track days are all about, adapt a track day mentality, or as Barry said, "Go Racing". This isn't MARRC, WERA, or CCS..this is NESBA.
I found myself in a similar scenario more than once in I group yesterday. Coming up on slower traffic doesn't mean you slow down, in my opinion, it means you exercise patience. Brian Johnson himself said in a rider's meeting once, "This is not an adrenaline sport, it's high speed chess." And he's right. If you're a fast rider coming up on slower riders in a group a little bunched up, you don't slow down..you plan your strategy to get through safely and cleanly as many moves ahead as you can. It's not hard, it may cost you your chance winning NESBA Superpole for your group for that day, but oh well...it's a TRACK DAY. There are no prizes for "winning".
I came up on 3 riders at least once going into T3 yesterday. I didn't dive up the inside on all three of them at once in T3. I took a line that allowed me to get the last rider at the exit of three, then I stayed on the next rider and took him after 4 on the shoot into 5, then patiently followed the lead rider of the pack through 6,7,8, and 9, then passed him or her before the bridge. Then I was free to go through 10 and go about my buisness. Yeah, it took me like half a lap, but who gives a damn? I didn't ruin there day, and in no way did these guys ruin mine.
Also, sometimes when you're patient and studying other riders there's also the possibility you may indeed actually LEARN something from another rider. Imagine that!
I have read much of what has been posted here and can only agree that what happened was in fact something I caused however it has not been all accurately laid out. I first off did apologize to the rider I struck.. It was the least I could do and it was by all means not intentional. I returned to the hot pits after the incident to talk it over with an official or CR and I was still going over the situation. I only intended to close the gap so that I could over take on the straight, I went to brake and it was soft so I tried to lean through it and I got into one of the riders. I did keep the bike up and reentered and immediately put my hands up and pulled off the line and looked for a CR. I fully expected to have an opportunity to apologize and did eventually follow the ambulance to the pit. My apology was not well received and I fully understood the anger and frustration. The chance to offer help on any damages was not given as the door was closed in my face. I took my time and packed my pit as I had been there since the previous Wednesday riding another organizations track day and school. It is not my intention to walk away and not extend a hand to someone I caused harm. I will in fact make a public apology for my actions. I am and will always be sorry for my actions. I also have video from throughout the day were I rode and gave space and was positively commented on by instructor. While there is probably plenty more that can be discussed here I don't really have know what else I can say. I was counseled for passing and it was upon my going to an instructor and stating that I had passed between 3/4 previously I was one of many that had. I realize this does in no way make it right but I did not repeat that action and kept my passes wide for the sessions until this occurred. I followed instructors unless waved by and made sure to keep my lines predictable. I am also a beginner and I made a mistake. I don't think I'm better or fast and I don't go around acting that way. Sure I have a liter bike, I can pass in a straight but I did not in any way believe this was a race or go out with the intention of stuffing people in turns. I did have an CR confirm the soft brake and I have corrected the issue. The brake on my bike had been feeling pretty good came almost all the way to the grip when I squeezed. My day was ended and I have learned many lessons from this. My goal was also to help and have a good time while focusing on improving my skills. I'm sorry for those that were involved and anyone else who feels I ruined your experience.
I can be reached at glenn.ian.baker@gmail.com if you want to reach me regarding this issue.
Sincerely,
Glenn Baker
Edit
I did not make repeated bad passes. I made a single pass that was in between 3/4 and discussed it with several control riders. My other passes were in areas of the track that we were given a go for. While I spoke to Barry and I fully appreciate his comments I did in fact follow him and other CR's for the remainder of the sessions and filmed them. If it's necessary I will provide the video to show the session and rather then leave it to words put it for your eyes to see. I didn't have a great experience however I have ridden with NESBA once prior and did not in any way get a sense that I was doing anything that would warrant disciplinary actions. I have also ridden cornerspeed, marrc and pro motion with no incidents. To the rider who equivocates an explanation to a lie your mistaken. Please read the countless post that suggest that Suzuki needs to improve the brakes, mainly do to going soft after a few hard braking sessions, a step I had taken by getting stainless steel lines for. I did also get damage to my bike my physical situation is only bruising. I have not enjoyed this in anyway and don't make light of it. I've seen in many forums how quickly it can change focus to kicking a so called asshat. Yes I got on the inside but this was not and intentional inside pass. And while I know we all take a risk, I don't feel a pass, safe or unsafe is worth potentially or actually harming someone. I also didn't come to win track day.
I take full responsibility for this, I have gone over this video and my mental playback of the situation and although I know there are some that don't believe what I am saying I only meant to pull inside when I felt I had a soft brake and no chance at making the outside with riders on two separate lines. I fucked up and I own it. I'm sure this could have been avoided, I made the move caused the accident and have to live with it. I hope to be forgiven but if not then I understand. I'll be taking a few weeks off to regroup and hopefully let this all sink in. To the others that were injured and to the CR's my deepest apologies.
I can be reached at glenn.ian.baker@gmail.com if you want to reach me regarding this issue.
Sincerely,
Glenn Baker
Edit
I did not make repeated bad passes. I made a single pass that was in between 3/4 and discussed it with several control riders. My other passes were in areas of the track that we were given a go for. While I spoke to Barry and I fully appreciate his comments I did in fact follow him and other CR's for the remainder of the sessions and filmed them. If it's necessary I will provide the video to show the session and rather then leave it to words put it for your eyes to see. I didn't have a great experience however I have ridden with NESBA once prior and did not in any way get a sense that I was doing anything that would warrant disciplinary actions. I have also ridden cornerspeed, marrc and pro motion with no incidents. To the rider who equivocates an explanation to a lie your mistaken. Please read the countless post that suggest that Suzuki needs to improve the brakes, mainly do to going soft after a few hard braking sessions, a step I had taken by getting stainless steel lines for. I did also get damage to my bike my physical situation is only bruising. I have not enjoyed this in anyway and don't make light of it. I've seen in many forums how quickly it can change focus to kicking a so called asshat. Yes I got on the inside but this was not and intentional inside pass. And while I know we all take a risk, I don't feel a pass, safe or unsafe is worth potentially or actually harming someone. I also didn't come to win track day.
I take full responsibility for this, I have gone over this video and my mental playback of the situation and although I know there are some that don't believe what I am saying I only meant to pull inside when I felt I had a soft brake and no chance at making the outside with riders on two separate lines. I fucked up and I own it. I'm sure this could have been avoided, I made the move caused the accident and have to live with it. I hope to be forgiven but if not then I understand. I'll be taking a few weeks off to regroup and hopefully let this all sink in. To the others that were injured and to the CR's my deepest apologies.
"The worst freakin part was the rider who caused it all went through the gravel, kept it up and then came back on the track. It only gets better. Then he trys to come back on the race line with gravel on his tires and nearly did a Biaggi on me! :argh: "
I looked back, reentered using the rear brake and stayed off the line, with my hand up and slowly worked my way through the carousel. Glad you feel that the "worst part" was that I didn't go off into the air fence or worse into the tire wall. While I admit the error is mine your information is not accurate and can only be received as to bad you didn't crash badly. Perhaps willing harm is next or are you just gladly going to repay the favor?
I looked back, reentered using the rear brake and stayed off the line, with my hand up and slowly worked my way through the carousel. Glad you feel that the "worst part" was that I didn't go off into the air fence or worse into the tire wall. While I admit the error is mine your information is not accurate and can only be received as to bad you didn't crash badly. Perhaps willing harm is next or are you just gladly going to repay the favor?
Twiztedjester55
New Member
Although it was a terrible pass and a bad decision I never got the feeling from him in the pits that it was a race and he didn't seem like he intentionally intended to break the rules, he didn't have that aggresive attitude that you see some people have in the pits, he was actually pretty laid back, he just made a bunch of bad judgement calls.