Baber fuel give away

BW Fuel Company

New Member
We at BW Fuel are interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the fuel now that you have had a chance to run it.

If you post make sure you have a your home region listed. We will be looking for prospective distributors throughout all of the NESBA regions.
 

D.Brown

New Member
I ran over 400 miles on BioWeapon this weekend at BMP and I am excited about the results! I started out control riding in B group on a cold track Saturday morning, then finally getting up to speed in Advance group just before lunch.I was turning lap after lap on my 2006 GSXR 750 in the 1:34"s in heavy traffic.
I started out sunday morning control riding in Intermediate group finally getting comfortable with the extra horsepower I got from running the WEAPON!!!
I put a new/used tire on during lunch and got back on track in Advance group. Despite being drained from a sinus cold , I was immediately in the low 1;33s despite all the traffic! By the second session after lunch, when the heavy hitters where out, I dropped my lap times to consistant 1;32.3!
Though these were not my best lap times at Barber Motorsports Park, I do feel that by using BioWeapon race fuel, I had an advantage over most riders.

Thank you BWfuel for all your help and support!!! I look forward to using more of the big bird and turning some fast laps at Road Atlanta!:cool:


Dave Brown #10+
 

Slowninja

New Member
Doolicous;93307 wrote:
I started out sunday morning control riding in Intermediate group finally getting comfortable with the extra horsepower I got from running the WEAPON!!!

I do feel that by using BioWeapon race fuel, I had an advantage over most riders.
Anyone other than a CR have anything to say about it? I'm sorry but it just sounds too scripted from what i've read about it so far.
 

D.Brown

New Member
I encourage you to try some. This is a fuel that can be compared to U4 and similar race fuels!See you at the next event.
D. Brown#10+
 

nodakgus

Member
Thoughts on Biofuel

I ran a tank through my 01 gsx-r750 and I thought that the engine seemed to spool up faster than I am accustomed. Also, thanks for the tires!:D
 

ronhix

New Member
Bio Weapon

Slowninja;93311 wrote: Anyone other than a CR have anything to say about it? I'm sorry but it just sounds too scripted from what i've read about it so far.
I have nothing to gain and I can honestly say that I really like the stuff.

I started the weekend on Saturday morning running some of the AMA spec Sunoco fuel I had left over from racing.

I went down and got some of the Bio fuel after Pitzer talked to me about trying it. I put in the bio fuel and ran it after lunch and it was every bit as smooth and crisp as the Sunoco I raced with all year. The power felt right on par as well.

I ran regular 93 pump gas on Sunday afternoon and it sucked by comparison. There was a bit of drop in horsepower, but the real difference was the crispness. The initial throttle response is always abrupt and mid RPM "bogging" is always an issue with pump gas. The bio fuel, like the Sunoco, fixed both of these issues nicely.

I think the bio fuel is much cheaper than the Sunoco we run at the AMA events, as well. Anybody know?
 

greeny

Member
From looking at the survey, it seemed that the BW is priced cheaper than traditional race fuels (about $3 over pump gas prices)...

Thanks to BW for the free fill! Unfortunately I didn't notice any performance gains, but then again, not only was I trying to learn a new track, I'm not as in touch with my bike as Ron and co.
 

Landshark

Control Rider
I use pump gas because its waist to run race fuel CRing. So to make as clean a test as I could I made sure to run the fuel nearly out of the 1k before tring the bio. At first my bike stunk. It just smelled bad. I didn't have the smoke I saw from other bikes. After my 2 sessions (I had them fill it to the top nearly 5 gal) I mixed in pump 93. I then saw the smoke like some other machines. While on the Bio I had nice clean on off throttle and was feeling a bit more crisp throttle response and that meant i was reaching peak rpm faster. I have a very well train butt dyno... No! The bike did spin up in areas it hadn't under the same conditions. Once back to pump the bike was noticeably doggish in comparison to the Bio. So much so I though I was in a gear higher.
I like not needing to drain caustic fuel. I like its an alternative to DINO. I like it was at the track. I like the perceived gains. I like it can be mixed with pump fuel mapping didn't seem to be needed.
I don't like added cost of anything. However the coast of fuel at the track isn't cheap either. I have mixed feelings on its cold weather application and storage. I also don't like the hassle of disposing of fuel containers. I think they mentioned a turn in program. Not sure.
So as a racer I would use the fuel for that purpose. As a track day enthusiast on a street bike I would use pump fuel. If your on a track only bike that has an exhaust, PC, etc and you feel you want the herky jerky throttle gone then use it. For the masses pump gas is your friend. Then again race gas isn't for the masses.
If fuel skyrockets again and this stays at the same cost I would not hesitate to use it as a street track day guy.
 

eagletangogreen

New Member
I used MRX01 the whole weekend (the bike is tuned for it) however if I loose 2 or 3 ponies using this fuel its a no brainier..

MRX01 $120 for 5 gallons
Bio $120ish for 15 gallons FTW

I am going to do a Pepsi challenge on a New KWS SS motor with the Bio vs MRX01.. Should be good to see the results..
 

Trent1098S

New Member
How's it going to get through the racing specs to be used on the racetrack during a race?

Example from CCS rulebook (emphasis added):

1.10 GASOLINE - A petroleum fuel available through normal commercial channels.

1.10.1 All gasoline must remain as produced without additives except as specified by these rules. Allowable gasolines are those whose characteristics meet the following standards:

A. Specific gravity must range between .695-.775 at 60 degrees F.

B. Dielectric constant of a competitors fuel sample must read within +/- 0.4 of a baseline sample provided by the commercial fuel manufacturer on the HDE G-01 Fuel Analyzer. (Meter is calibrated in cyclohexane.)

(1.) Two-stroke oil may be added to any gasoline allowed by these standards. Two-stroke pre-mixed gasoline and oil must read within +/- 2.0 of a baseline sample

1.10.2 Fuel may be checked before, during and after practice, qualifying or final events at the discretion of Championship Cup Series or ASRA officials. Competitors must furnish gasoline manufacturer and product information to CCS or ASRA officials whenever a fuel sample is checked. Field test results of a competitor’s fuel shall not be conclusive, and samples for lab analysis may be taken from a competitor’s fuel tank at the discretion of Championship Cup Series or ASRA officials. If a competitor is in doubt as to the legality of their fuel, it is recommended that it be checked by Championship Cup Series or ASRA officials before use in competition.
 

Trent1098S

New Member
Ok I'm going to be the skeptic.

Biodiesel must be mixed with gasoline for it to run in a gasoline engine. BWFuel is candid about this, stating "Bioweapon is refined partly from poultry biproducts". Most homebrew biofuel producers usually try between 5% and 15% biodiesel to pump gas. It's still quite experimental... the point being, you can't run straight bio fuel in a gasoline engine like you can in diesel engines. The Biodiesel simply is an add-on, much like Ethanol.

Here's why I'm playing the skeptic. The proces for making biodiesel is essentially free - there's a LOT of people doing it at home nowadays. You can take biodiesel and add it to normal pump gas, and you arrive at a cleaner burning, cooler running mixture. Sounds great.

But I'm thinking economics here. It doesn't really cost you any more than pump gas and time to make a biodiesel gas additive.

In the end, it's actually cheaper for you to make and run bio-gas than it is to run pump gas, because you're mixing 15% or so of a "free" product which costs nothing to produce in to normal gasoline. This means if pump gas costs you $2.60 a gallon, once you mix the biodiesel in, you're only paying $2.21 for the end product because 15% of the end result didn't cost you anything other than some time to wash and filter, and some trips to the local grocer to harvest used chicken fat from their rotisserie...

So you take $2.60 pump gas, mix in 15% biodiesel that's brewed in your basement, and you have a product that costs you $2.21 a gallon. It *is* a great product but the laws prohibit you to sell it to other people to use on-road, because you're not licensed. So you turn around and sell it for $6.00 a gallon to offroad guys, pocketing $3.79 a gallon.

It's smart. Not only does the stuff run cooler, but you effectively boost the octane a bit so it runs a lot like race fuel. And pocket quite a chunk of change in the meantime. It's possible to crank out as much as 500 gallons of biodiesel a week, working alone.

While some may be interested in trying some out, they should be asking some questions about your base bio additive mix, basically to determine and ensure it's within spec, rather than risk an engine on an unknown factor.

You've got to think, a bad 15% mix of biodiesel that's out of spec with pump gas can utterly destroy a spark ignition engine, and some of the built race engines on the track cost a LOT of money. The final octane rating will vary widely with the quality of the additive, the concentration of the additive, and the techniques used to filter and wash the biodiesel - right down to temperatures the mixture is kept at in key points.

Think about what would happen to a highly tuned engine if the octane were reduced below 87.. cylinder detonation, etc..

So here goes:

What tests have you sent your biodiesel additive in for?

Do you have the lab reports available for inspection?

What is the ester and methanol content (% mass)?

What standards do you meet or exceed? EN 14214, ASTM D-6751, etc?

What's the specific density of the bio fuel additive you produce?

What is the ratio of bio diesel to gasoline?

What is the base
gasoline you use in your mix? (Both specific brand and octane please)

What's the flashpoint?

What is your liability insurance limits, coverage (which states), and what is your warranty to consumers if your product damages their engines?

Thank you in advance.
 

eagletangogreen

New Member
Trent1098S;93619 wrote: Ok I'm going to be the skeptic.

Biodiesel must be mixed with gasoline for it to run in a gasoline engine. BWFuel is candid about this, stating "Bioweapon is refined partly from poultry biproducts". Most homebrew biofuel producers usually try between 5% and 15% biodiesel to pump gas. It's still quite experimental... the point being, you can't run straight bio fuel in a gasoline engine like you can in diesel engines. The Biodiesel simply is an add-on, much like Ethanol.

Here's why I'm playing the skeptic. The proces for making biodiesel is essentially free - there's a LOT of people doing it at home nowadays. You can take biodiesel and add it to normal pump gas, and you arrive at a cleaner burning, cooler running mixture. Sounds great.

But I'm thinking economics here. It doesn't really cost you any more than pump gas and time to make a biodiesel gas additive.

In the end, it's actually cheaper for you to make and run bio-gas than it is to run pump gas, because you're mixing 15% or so of a "free" product which costs nothing to produce in to normal gasoline. This means if pump gas costs you $2.60 a gallon, once you mix the biodiesel in, you're only paying $2.21 for the end product because 15% of the end result didn't cost you anything other than some time to wash and filter, and some trips to the local grocer to harvest used chicken fat from their rotisserie...

So you take $2.60 pump gas, mix in 15% biodiesel that's brewed in your basement, and you have a product that costs you $2.21 a gallon. It *is* a great product but the laws prohibit you to sell it to other people to use on-road, because you're not licensed. So you turn around and sell it for $6.00 a gallon to offroad guys, pocketing $3.79 a gallon
.

It's smart. Not only does the stuff run cooler, but you effectively boost the octane a bit so it runs a lot like race fuel. And pocket quite a chunk of change in the meantime. It's possible to crank out as much as 500 gallons of biodiesel a week, working alone.

While some may be interested in trying some out, they should be asking some questions about your base bio additive mix, basically to determine and ensure it's within spec, rather than risk an engine on an unknown factor.

You've got to think, a bad 15% mix of biodiesel that's out of spec with pump gas can utterly destroy a spark ignition engine, and some of the built race engines on the track cost a LOT of money. The final octane rating will vary widely with the quality of the additive, the concentration of the additive, and the techniques used to filter and wash the biodiesel - right down to temperatures the mixture is kept at in key points.

Think about what would happen to a highly tuned engine if the octane were reduced below 87.. cylinder detonation, etc..

So here goes:

What tests have you sent your biodiesel additive in for?

Do you have the lab reports available for inspection?

What is the ester and methanol content (% mass)?

What standards do you meet or exceed? EN 14214, ASTM D-6751, etc?

What's the specific density of the bio fuel additive you produce?

What is the ratio of bio diesel to gasoline?

What is the base
gasoline you use in your mix? (Both specific brand and octane please)

What's the flashpoint?

What is your liability insurance limits, coverage (which states), and what is your warranty to consumers if your product damages their engines?

Thank you in advance.
Wow that's pretty deep, but very good questions!
 

Trent1098S

New Member
Sorry. I'll break it down here in shorter form. The more I think about this, the more upset I'm getting. This post is going to sound rude - but I feel it's justified. If you provide facts, figures, and additional information that convinces me otherwise, I will be happy to jump on the bandwagon and promote your product.

Otherwise I'm calling this out for what it is.

First.. warranty. I've got a lot of buddies with expensive engines (myself included).

1. What is your warranty and insurance if your mix is bad and we blow an engine because of it?

2. What happens if one of my buddies blows an engine running this, gets asspacked by another rider, and one or both of them get killed or maimed? (Nevermind, I already know the answer to that question.)

Economics...

3. What justification do you have for charging $6.00 a gallon? Is it because Sunoco is $8 and you know racers will shell out their cash to save $2 a gallon for a product that you can't sell legally anywhere else TO anyone else?

4. Hypothetical here. I can make biodiesel in my basement with animal/plant oil, lye, and methanol for about 50 cents a gallon. Mixed 3:20 with 87 octane pump gasoline at $2.59 a gallon, this arrives at a component part of $2.201 + .075 = $2.28 a gallon at cost, after chemicals. It costs about $100 for the basic supplies to make biodiesel using the methanol process (most of which people already have or can fabricate), so I'm not even going to count production costs.

This leads to the question of WHY you are charging $6.00 a gallon for something we can already do ourselves? I could easily scale up a small operation, make 500 gallons or more of biodiesel a week if I quit my job and worked at home doing this. If I did a 1:20 mixture I could make 10,000 gallons of "race" fuel, at a profit of $37,200 per week. Even if I did a richer 3:20 mixture I could still crank out over 3,300 gallons of "race" fuel and make over $9,000 a week.

Sorry if I'm coming off harsh, but I can see a lot of my buddies getting duped for modern day snake oil.

If you are selling something other, please provide more information about your production process, standards compliance, insurance, mix ratio, lab results, and so on. If you're selling a legit product please also provide a patent number and more information on your manufacturing process.
 

Trent1098S

New Member
PS - I am not doubting the claims that BioWeapon runs cooler, provides a bit more power, scrubs engines, or has slightly less harmful emissions. These are all correct claims that can be made as byproducts on pump gas mixed with biodiesel.

My concern is that my pit mates are getting ripped off on price, or may be putting something untested and / or potentially unsafe in their superbikes. This is not a game we play - our lives are on the line EVERY time we pit out. And those lives, my friends and fellow riders, well... they depend on EVERY component of our bike to be in good working order, including fuel delivery.

One of the big issues with running biodiesel as an add-on in older engines is that the "solvent nature" of the mix WILL reduce carbon buildup. This is what clogs fuel filters in automobiles that run it - the carbon "crap" getting scrubbed off the tank and fuel lines. This results in sharp and immediate power loss until the filter is changed. As long as you continue running the mix, your tank, filter, and lines will stay nice and clean, and you shouldn't have to replace the filter any more often than you did before.

But a sudden, immediate decrease in power due to fuel delivery - or a BURST in power due to an improper mix - could result in catastrophic consequences on the track.

This leads me to ask one more question. How many bikes that crashed this weekend were running BioWeapon at the time? And what was the nature of those crashes? I know one bike tossed the rider and flipped end over end and caught fire, something I'd never personally witnessed before this weekend.

If you're doing a study prior to marketing a product, those are highly relevant statistics.
 

stkr

New Member
Wow, good questions Trent. It will be interesting to see the other side of this discussion. Where's the popcorn? ;)

I ran a tank (~4 gallons) and I seemed to have some slight performance gains and better driveability. Then again, I'm normally just running 87 octane pump gas, so I might get the same results from 93.

I was going to make a smart-ass post about how the bike was pulling wheelies over the hills, and breaking the rear loose exiting the turns, but you went and made the thread all serious and stuff. LOL!
 

vtjballeng

New Member
Trent1098S;93619 wrote: Ok I'm going to be the skeptic.

Biodiesel must be mixed with gasoline for it to run in a gasoline engine. BWFuel is candid about this, stating "Bioweapon is refined partly from poultry biproducts". Most homebrew biofuel producers usually try between 5% and 15% biodiesel to pump gas. It's still quite experimental... the point being, you can't run straight bio fuel in a gasoline engine like you can in diesel engines. The Biodiesel simply is an add-on, much like Ethanol.

Here's why I'm playing the skeptic. The proces for making biodiesel is essentially free - there's a LOT of people doing it at home nowadays. You can take biodiesel and add it to normal pump gas, and you arrive at a cleaner burning, cooler running mixture. Sounds great.

But I'm thinking economics here. It doesn't really cost you any more than pump gas and time to make a biodiesel gas additive.

In the end, it's actually cheaper for you to make and run bio-gas than it is to run pump gas, because you're mixing 15% or so of a "free" product which costs nothing to produce in to normal gasoline. This means if pump gas costs you $2.60 a gallon, once you mix the biodiesel in, you're only paying $2.21 for the end product because 15% of the end result didn't cost you anything other than some time to wash and filter, and some trips to the local grocer to harvest used chicken fat from their rotisserie...

So you take $2.60 pump gas, mix in 15% biodiesel that's brewed in your basement, and you have a product that costs you $2.21 a gallon. It *is* a great product but the laws prohibit you to sell it to other people to use on-road, because you're not licensed. So you turn around and sell it for $6.00 a gallon to offroad guys, pocketing $3.79 a gallon
.

It's smart. Not only does the stuff run cooler, but you effectively boost the octane a bit so it runs a lot like race fuel. And pocket quite a chunk of change in the meantime. It's possible to crank out as much as 500 gallons of biodiesel a week, working alone.

While some may be interested in trying some out, they should be asking some questions about your base bio additive mix, basically to determine and ensure it's within spec, rather than risk an engine on an unknown factor.

You've got to think, a bad 15% mix of biodiesel that's out of spec with pump gas can utterly destroy a spark ignition engine, and some of the built race engines on the track cost a LOT of money. The final octane rating will vary widely with the quality of the additive, the concentration of the additive, and the techniques used to filter and wash the biodiesel - right down to temperatures the mixture is kept at in key points.

Think about what would happen to a highly tuned engine if the octane were reduced below 87.. cylinder detonation, etc..

So here goes:

What tests have you sent your biodiesel additive in for?

Do you have the lab reports available for inspection?

What is the ester and methanol content (% mass)?

What standards do you meet or exceed? EN 14214, ASTM D-6751, etc?

What's the specific density of the bio fuel additive you produce?

What is the ratio of bio diesel to gasoline?

What is the base
gasoline you use in your mix? (Both specific brand and octane please)

What's the flashpoint?

What is your liability insurance limits, coverage (which states), and what is your warranty to consumers if your product damages their engines?

Thank you in advance.
Some good questions. I have a few points:

Time is not Free, they have time invested in this one way or another
[*]BioDiesel is not Free, not matter what base oil you choose it is not entirely free. Even getting waste oil takes time and effort. Processing takes time and effort.
[*]I would want to see some logging of cylinder pressures (not hard to do for testing) vs crank angle
[*]I would want to see some logs of cylinder temperatures as compared to crank angle
I want to know how the tests quoted on the website were controlled
Burning faster as the website claims is not inherently better. How does the flame front propagate? How much faster? Do you recommend any timing changes?
The list could go on for a very very long time but I suppose the bottom line is, where is the engineering data showing what the fuel is, what it does and why we should run it. Dyno charts are like testimonials or statistics, anyone worth their salt can make them show a product favorably if desired.
 

Trent1098S

New Member
Sorry about dragging down the fun factor. I know everyone was excited about getting a free tank of gas, hell, I was tempted too. But a little flag went off in the back of my head and it hasn't gone away yet. I've learned to trust my gut on matters like this, so I want answers. What set me off? That everyone would run down, fill up with a brand new type of fuel they'd never heard of before, then go run their asses off on one of the most technical tracks in America without giving it a second thought.

That scares me a little. Maybe I'm just a big pussy and missed out on a free tank of gas. But I want to know that what I'm trusting my life with has undergone "The Scientific Method."

Anyone that knows me at all, knows that I'm always full of questions. The reason for this is I second source everything, because I'm paranoid by nature. Even what I hear out of the mouth of succesful track icons like Ron Hix gets seconded by someone else before I trust it. I'm like this in all aspects of life, business or personal. I guess I got dicked over one time to many by trusting whatever I hear.

Like I said, if it turns out I'm overly cautious for no reason, and they've got loads of data to back up their product with, the worst thing that'll happen is we will ALL get more information and I look more paranoid than before. No prob, I've got a pretty thick skin and can handle backlash. They asked for input and opinions, I'm voicing mine. I have every right to.

Now, I sit back and wait. Don't have anything else to type about it (amazingly enough...)
 

Trent1098S

New Member
Oh, and PS Ron, you've never steered me wrong yet. Just thought I'd add that so you don't take what I wrote wrong. YOU DA MAN!

See? I *AM* paranoid.
 
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