Barber Lowside with Mary!

[Dave561]

Buy an SV. Passing liter bikes requires you to know the limit of the front tire

 

[LarsDunaway]

Sorry to hear that Lenny! I had a cold tire crash at NCBIKE at the beginning of the month- session was red flagged so we waited on the grid for them to clear the track, meanwhile my tires got cold. I went out pretty slow, but not slow enough evidently- spun up the rear in turn 3. Luckily, I was on an SV- the cost to repair your bike would pay for an entire replacement bike for me

 

[Lenny ZX9R]

I'm just glad Lenny's ok cause I know he likes to share and I LOVE chocolate chip cookies!

LOL! You can have some anytime Steve!

 

[Lenny ZX9R]

Sorry to hear that Lenny! I had a cold tire crash at NCBIKE at the beginning of the month- session was red flagged so we waited on the grid for them to clear the track, meanwhile my tires got cold. I went out pretty slow, but not slow enough evidently- spun up the rear in turn 3. Luckily, I was on an SV- the cost to repair your bike would pay for an entire replacement bike for me

Thanks Lars! I don't like the way the Dunlops Talk to me!

You acquire the "feel" over time, experience, and going past the edge. Explaining the "edge" is impossible, as only those that have gone past it know where it's at. When I first started, I struggled at learning how to read the bike. I would crash and not really know why it happened. But after going through some real riding schools, I learned I was man handling the bike. Muscling the bars. The bike absolutely talks to you before a crash (excluding cold tire crashes...), you just need to learn how to listen.

I did love a line from the movie "Hitting the Apex", where they say "You can get a fast rider to stop crashing, but a slow rider will never be fast".

Does this mean you have to crash your brains out every track day to get better? Absolutely not. But by applying the fundamentals that YCRS teaches you, you absolutely can learn to maximize the grip from your tires, and minimize the chance of crashing.

If you really want to learn the edge, get into dirt bikes. I just picked one up myself and am having a blast. I lay my bike down (not really crashing...most of the time) probably at least twice every time I go out. It's a hoot, and it's far less painful and costly to low side a dirt bike in the mud than our street bikes.

John You have a great way of explaining things! I have had front tire slides, I've had rear tire slides, I've had both tires slides. I know that What we teach about the 100 points of grip works and I'm a prime example! But there are variables like Tom said! This was a cold front tire lowside plain and simple, it just let go! Whats funny is I had filmed Mary for a few laps and then I pushed it just a little and BOOM i'm sliding! I figured I had enough heat in the tire, I guess NOT! I went into turn 1 way faster earlier in the day so it was just very unexpected!

 

[Smithereens]

Lenny ..... I was tempted to write something .... but I'll wait to see you. I'm thinking Rob had it right.

 

[tdelegram]

Lenny, is Mary:
1 The person you were following
2 The name you refer to your R1 as
3 your alter ego and you're referring to yourself in third person (kind of like Kaitlin Jenner)
4 a loose description of how you ride


Can't wait for Jennings, hopefully I see you there Lenny.

PS, Why can't i like my own posts, I crack me up.

 

[Lenny ZX9R]

Lenny, is Mary:
1 The person you were following
2 The name you refer to your R1 as
3 your alter ego and you're referring to yourself in third person (kind of like Kaitlin Jenner)
4 a loose description of how you ride


Can't wait for Jennings, hopefully I see you there Lenny.

PS, Why can't i like my own posts, I crack me up.

Tom, you crack me up!
I'll go with #1 Mary was the young Lady I was following!
Jennings we'll see about that

 

[cumberlandjack]

So Lenny, you are my go to guy at the track as far as figuring out certain turns and what to look for such as markers.
What is the point in using tire warmers when the conditions are like they were at Barber? Maybe they give you a head start on the first few laps, but when the ambient temperature is cold and so is the track, what is the point?

 

[rob92]

I both do and don't like the 100 points of grip paradigm. It's important to illustrate the trade off between lean angle and braking/acceleration is always the same. I get it. It's absolutely not helpful in telling you how to know when you've reached the full 100 points other than "because then you crash." Crashing is a painful and expensive teacher, so how does one acquire the "feel" for when you're on the edge of traction? Supposedly the tires make noise to tell you, but over the engine and wind, I certainly couldn't hear anything in time to adjust from the video.

Just in case it's been characterized differently, you DO NOT have to crash to find the limit of traction/grip at any given moment. Without spoiling some of the lessons taught at YCRS, the practice is to teach students to "approach" the limit of traction (100 points) using slow/smooth inputs at all times. Sure, lean angle vs brake or acceleration point division seems simple, but how do you find where that 100 points resides? If you approach the limit slowly + smoothly, you will start to feel the feedback from the bike. You can actually go past 100 points (100.5, 101, etc.) where you're sliding/skidding. The 100 points is not an on/off switch. In the lessons, we talk about abruptness. Grabbing/stabbing the brakes, cracking the throttle... all bad terms. We "roll" on the gas and "squeeze" the brakes. If we know a shoulder breaks at 20lbs of pressure, grabbing (22lbs, let say) breaks the shoulder... but if we approach it as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 18.5, 19, 19.25, 19.5... (you see where I'm going), you can start to feel the shoulder break. Another example is how new pilots are taught to stall (or not stall) an airplane by slowly approaching the point of stall and feeling the "imminent warning" that the plane is about to nose over, buffeting, shaking, etc. The point of the lesson isn't to just recover from the stall, but to feel it happening in the first place. So like motorcycles + grip, the goal is to feel the imminent loss of traction much like the plane about to stall.

Where that 100 points resides at the moment is always going to be the challenge. But as you gain more experience, so too shall your ability to find it. The faster racers at the top of their game ride entire races at 100, 100.5, 101 etc. points, corner by corner, lap after lap. If you ask Kyle Wyman or Chris Peris how often they approach the point of crashing in a race, they'll tell you, "just about every corner".

 

[Emerson]

So Lenny, you are my go to guy at the track as far as figuring out certain turns and what to look for such as markers.
What is the point in using tire warmers when the conditions are like they were at Barber? Maybe they give you a head start on the first few laps, but when the ambient temperature is cold and so is the track, what is the point?

The problem was that he went out on track at a slow pace and maintained that pace for a while, and then decided to up the pace when his tires were not at optimal temp. At a Novice and Intermediate pace the heat is getting sucked out of the tires faster than it was being put it. I personally don't like how people say "take it easy for 2 laps to get heat into your tires" if your warmers are heating up to proper temp there is no need for that. I personally check my tires are hot before I go on track to avoid problems. Once on track I ride my pace. When I come off the track my tires are actually hotter than when they come off the warmers. With all that said there are some temperatures where no matter what you do, you're going to lose heat faster than you put it in.

 

[adotjdot]

Just in case it's been characterized differently, you DO NOT have to crash to find the limit of traction/grip at any given moment. Without spoiling some of the lessons taught at YCRS, the practice is to teach students to "approach" the limit of traction (100 points) using slow/smooth inputs at all times. Sure, lean angle vs brake or acceleration point division seems simple, but how do you find where that 100 points resides? If you approach the limit slowly + smoothly, you will start to feel the feedback from the bike. You can actually go past 100 points (100.5, 101, etc.) where you're sliding/skidding. The 100 points is not an on/off switch. In the lessons, we talk about abruptness. Grabbing/stabbing the brakes, cracking the throttle... all bad terms. We "roll" on the gas and "squeeze" the brakes. If we know a shoulder breaks at 20lbs of pressure, grabbing (22lbs, let say) breaks the shoulder... but if we approach it as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 18.5, 19, 19.25, 19.5... (you see where I'm going), you can start to feel the shoulder break. Another example is how new pilots are taught to stall (or not stall) an airplane by slowly approaching the point of stall and feeling the "imminent warning" that the plane is about to nose over, buffeting, shaking, etc. The point of the lesson isn't to just recover from the stall, but to feel it happening in the first place. So like motorcycles + grip, the goal is to feel the imminent loss of traction much like the plane about to stall.

Where that 100 points resides at the moment is always going to be the challenge. But as you gain more experience, so too shall your ability to find it. The faster racers at the top of their game ride entire races at 100, 100.5, 101 etc. points, corner by corner, lap after lap. If you ask Kyle Wyman or Chris Peris how often they approach the point of crashing in a race, they'll tell you, "just about every corner".

Something else to add to Rob's comments here, which are spot on by the way, is that where that 100 points applies will change based on the conditions. Cold out? Rain on the track? Those 100 points are reached much sooner and with less lean angle than say on a hot day with a dry track. In poor conditions, being smooth and approaching those limits gradually as Rob describes is even more important.

 

[wmhjr]

Agree with both AJ and Rob. The way I've looked at it is this.

That "100 points" is the theoretical maximum performance you can get from a tire given the current situation. For those of us that fly, it's similar to how an aircraft wing stalls. There are multiple variables that can affect the performance of a wing profile, just as there are multiple variables that can affect the performance of a tire. That 100 points is the most you can "safely" demand from the tire given the track surface material, the temperature, etc. As the temperature increases, the amount of "grip" you get at 100 points from that same tire also increases.

In racing cars (before I started with you folks) it's amazing how many people I'd run into that just didn't understand those concepts, so they tried using the same braking points at the same speeds regardless of how the track was prepared.

That being said, I have to say I'm now just a little nervous every time I walk past the brand new Dunlops I have in my shop - since I've been running Pirellis for a couple years now.....

 

[physicistkev]

The problem was that he went out on track at a slow pace and maintained that pace for a while, and then decided to up the pace when his tires were not at optimal temp. At a Novice and Intermediate pace the heat is getting sucked out of the tires faster than it was being put it. I personally don't like how people say "take it easy for 2 laps to get heat into your tires" if your warmers are heating up to proper temp there is no need for that. I personally check my tires are hot before I go on track to avoid problems. Once on track I ride my pace. When I come off the track my tires are actually hotter than when they come off the warmers. With all that said there are some temperatures where no matter what you do, you're going to lose heat faster than you put it in.

As I look back at how I say this. Your right about how it sounds. You need to put heat into the tires. Riding slowly does NOT put heat into the tires. When going out it's important to remember to work the tires so they build heat. How you do this depends on the conditions and the tires. Giving it a few laps to warm up only works if your riding hard enough to put heat into the tire.

 

[Lenny ZX9R]

The problem was that he went out on track at a slow pace and maintained that pace for a while, and then decided to up the pace when his tires were not at optimal temp. At a Novice and Intermediate pace the heat is getting sucked out of the tires faster than it was being put it. I personally don't like how people say "take it easy for 2 laps to get heat into your tires" if your warmers are heating up to proper temp there is no need for that. I personally check my tires are hot before I go on track to avoid problems. Once on track I ride my pace. When I come off the track my tires are actually hotter than when they come off the warmers. With all that said there are some temperatures where no matter what you do, you're going to lose heat faster than you put it in.

Exactly what Emerson said! I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Lenny ZX9R]

Rob, AJ and Emerson are all correct! I DID have heat in my tires when I went out but at the pace that I was going I could NOT generate any heat in the tires. If I had gone out at "A" pace I would have been generating heat in the tires, ergo the tires would have gripped easily! Barber is a good track as far as grip goes, but I didn't and did NOT work up to the faster pace putting heat back into the tires! I asked the front tire to work too soon and reached my 100 points of grip way to soon resulting in the lowside! Lesson learned!

 

[adotjdot]

As I look back at how I say this. Your right about how it sounds. You need to put heat into the tires. Riding slowly does NOT put heat into the tires. When going out it's important to remember to work the tires so they build heat. How you do this depends on the conditions and the tires. Giving it a few laps to warm up only works if your riding hard enough to put heat into the tire.

Best way to build heat into any tire safely regardless of the conditions is to build acceleration and build brake pressure while the bike is STRAIGHT UP AND DOWN.(sorry, wanted to make sure I highlighted that part Do NOT push the bike hard into the corners until you have had a chance to do this. And, as we saw by the video, if for some reason the conditions change and our tires are allowed to cool, for example a red flag where we get pulled off the track and have to sit on the grid for a while, then you need to start that process over again.

 

[Raspingbeast]

I had a set of Dunlop Med slicks. They don't hold the heat like the Pirellis!

I have pirellis SP. Do they heat up fast in your opinion? Getting prepared for my first trackday.


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[D-Zum]

Regardless of tire make/brand/compound, the ticket to getting your tires up to operational temperature. That comes with getting the tire's carcass to flex.

The front tire flexes and gets heat in it under braking.

The rear tire gets heat into it under acceleration.

So if you're not running warmers, like many Novice and some Intermediate riders don't, going out with that in mind on the first lap of a session
is probably a wise choice. You shouldn't really go out on the first lap at your hot lap pace anyway. Taking the first lap to let the tires get flexed and warm, and
taking the first lap to visually see what's going on on the track overall is a smart way to start a session. Nothing wrong with starting out at %60-70 on lap one.
Then, after lap one dialing it up from there.

Slicks need more heat to perform up to the needs of a faster rider like Lenny on a more powerful bike like his R1. In July, if he had made the same decision to wick it up and go play with Will after riding those slower laps with Mary, he would have probably been fine. Unfortunately, conditions that day were much less than optimal, the track and Lenny's pace were actually letting heat out of the tires early in the session, and later on the session when he asked the tires to give him more, they just didn't have it.

 

[Raspingbeast]

Regardless of tire make/brand/compound, the ticket to getting your tires up to operational temperature. That comes with getting the tire's carcass to flex.

The front tire flexes and gets heat in it under braking.

The rear tire gets heat into it under acceleration.

So if you're not running warmers, like many Novice and some Intermediate riders don't, going out with that in mind on the first lap of a session
is probably a wise choice. You shouldn't really go out on the first lap at your hot lap pace anyway. Taking the first lap to let the tires get flexed and warm, and
taking the first lap to visually see what's going on on the track overall is a smart way to start a session. Nothing wrong with starting out at %60-70 on lap one.
Then, after lap one dialing it up from there.

Slicks need more heat to perform up to the needs of a faster rider like Lenny on a more powerful bike like his R1. In July, if he had made the same decision to wick it up and go play with Will after riding those slower laps with Mary, he would have probably been fine. Unfortunately, conditions that day were much less than optimal, the track and Lenny's pace were actually letting heat out of the tires early in the session, and later on the session when he asked the tires to give him more, they just didn't have it.

Thanks for the info man. I can't wait to do my first track day.


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[tdelegram]

I think the SPs are are hyper street tire not a full blown slick or track tire. They don't need the same heat that a slick or DOT race tire needs. Hyper-Street tires are great in novice and even intermediate until you really get to the top of the intermediate group. They don't drop off Like race tires when cold and operate much better in a lower temp range in comparison to race tires.

D, sorry about the AFC north.