Braking techniques

[ZOOK131]

Question for you guys about when & how you brake....I have found that I accelerate up to my brake marker and then back off the throttle and try to keep some momentum going into the turn and accelerate steadily through the turn to the exit. I have read that some guys accelerate all the way to their brake point, BRAKE and then trail brake as needed throug the turn. It would seem to me that the 2nd way would cause one to loose momentum going into the turn. I do know it also depends on the turn...sweeper vs hairpin etc. I have also found that coming off of my Gixxer 1000 & going to an R6 has caused me to re-visit my braking style & options, I have found that there are more options with...the R6....what works for you guys??:dunno:

 

[Meat]

ZOOK131;19764 wrote: Question for you guys about when & how you brake....I have found that I accelerate up to my brake marker and then back off the throttle and try to keep some momentum going into the turn and accelerate steadily through the turn to the exit. I have read that some guys accelerate all the way to their brake point, BRAKE and then trail brake as needed throug the turn. It would seem to me that the 2nd way would cause one to loose momentum going into the turn. I do know it also depends on the turn...sweeper vs hairpin etc. I have also found that coming off of my Gixxer 1000 & going to an R6 has caused me to re-visit my braking style & options, I have found that there are more options with...the R6....what works for you guys??:dunno:

There are two main schools of thought on this one, that come to mind: Keith Code's California Superbike school teaches to brake in a straight line and continually roll on the throttle to get the (60%) weight to the rear and settle the bike. Freddy Spencer teaches to trail brake right up to, or close to the apex (for most or many turns).

There are arguements for both and I personally use both techniques depending on the turn. I really try to concentrate on keeping the bike as stable as possible, so I personally tend to be a trail braker....and often trail brake when I actually don't need to.

 

[sheepofblue]

Done at the ultimate you run to your brake marker then trail brake to the apex reaching minimum speed at the apex as you should. At the apex you accelerate out. Easier typed than done. You don't loose momentum since you are coming faster and have moved your brake marker further in. That said aggressive trail braking is not a point most start and many never do (even some fast people)

 

[physicistkev]

It's a matter of comfort adn the bikes natural geometry. I have evolved from gas to brake point with slight throttle through the turn to trail braking like a mad man. This just suits my bike, and is comfortable for me. I have found that the more brake I use, to a point, the better it turns in. That combined with what seems an over abundance of front end grip have moved me to using as much of that front grip as I can.

I would think that the newer more nimble(nervous to me ) bikes don't have as much ability to trail brake (can't really load the front up compared to a more stable bike), or the need to trail brake as much. A nimble bike puts more weight on the front tire, in general, that's one of the reasons they feel nimble. That's an oversimplification as there are many other things that cause a bike to turn in better, but in general, more weight on the front/bias the geometry to the front you get a bike that drops into corners and naturally loads the front tire. Thus you can not put as much braking load on the front as you lean it over.

I noticed this when riding Troys newer GSXR 750. I could shed speed faster during my braking and didn't feel as though I could trail brake as hard as I do on my bike. I reverted back to my older style, trying to be just ever so slightly on the gas through most of the turn. I was able to run quicker lap times on the new bike so the bike is going to drive how you use it to go fast.

Different turns will need different techniques. Hairpins generally are about getting the bike down to speed before apex and powering at or just before the apex. The high speed stuff has me on the gas much sooner, further from the apex.

This is just how I ride. I would think modern bikes are suited to less trail braking than I am used to, but I will let others add their comments. I ahve been wrong before :dunno:

 

[DeltaHotel]

ZOOK131;19764 wrote: ... I have read that some guys accelerate all the way to their brake point, BRAKE and then trail brake as needed throug the turn....

Even the most agressive trail braking is not held through the turn, but rather a technique applied on turn entry. But once lean angle is established and you're approaching apex, it's throttle through the turn and coming out. So momentum is not lost. Quite to the contrary. A fast rider carries a lot more corner entry speed, brakes later, and gets on the gas sooner. And without a lot of coasting in between.

Something else to ponder... if you're spending a lot of time coasting into the corner after braking, then you're not making optimal time through that corner. Same to be said for the time after you close throttle and before you are heavy on the brakes (approaching your turn-in point). If you get on the brakes agressively and find that you've lost your momentum for the corner, then try delaying your application of brakes (and holding throttle until the moment you apply brakes).

 

[danch]

I find it's usually more productive to brake less than it is to brake later. Once you're used to less, it's easier to do later.

 

[barry38]

According to Freddie Spencer, the reason the bike turns in better when trail braking is the forks are compressed which changes the rake and trail geometry.

I trail brake in most corners. My process is this. At my brake marker I squeeze the brake level progressively and smoothly until 100% of needed braking power is achieved, at turn in I progressively and smoothly release brake pressure until the apex of the corner, at which point the throttle is smoothly and progressively applied from the apex off the corner. Nick Ienatch's (Freddie's cheif instructor) book, "SPORT RIDING TECHNIQUES" gives a great illistration of this.

Does this work for everyone? Nope. Does it work for me? Yup. Riding on the back of a motorycle watching Freddie put this in practice sold me. Only two things were happening. Either acceleration or deceleration. Never coasting.


With all that being said, I beleive trail braking is an advanced technique. There are alot of other things a person should be comfortable with before trying it. You really need a good feel for using the brakes AND understanding the feedback you are getting from the front end. If you are not confident with this, then being off the brakes and at maintenance (steady) throttle or slightly accelerating is a better method.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not even close to being one of the fastest guys out on the track. So you can take the above with that in mind.

 

[Meat]

barry38;19849 wrote: Riding on the back of a motorycle watching Freddie put this in practice sold me.

And what about when Freddie clutchless downshifted while braking and turning! The 2 up with Freddie was very educational for me on being smooth and utilizing trailbraking to the utmost to achieve this.

 

[ZOOK131]

Thanx guys for your input & suggestions. I have trail braked into turn 2 @Barber only because I thought I was toooo hot into the turn and in the mist of my pucker factor of 11 (on a scale of 1 to 10) I remember 2 thoughts going through my head. 1. man, my fron end seems to be pushing out & 2. how much further can I lean over so that I can hold my line AND stay on 2 wheels??? I seem to have the proper set up on my front end so that is why I cannot figure out why my wheel was pushing out (maybe it was in my mind) it was not my tires or suspension. So my question for those who ACTUALLY PRACTICE trail braking is how did you determine how much brake and how much lean is achieveable without making for a short track day.

 

[ronhix]

ZOOK131;19971 wrote: So my question for those who ACTUALLY PRACTICE trail braking is how did you determine how much brake and how much lean is achieveable without making for a short track day.

Sneak up on it, real slow like.

Seriously though, if you are braking too hard into the corner then the bike will want to stand up on you. Trail braking is only a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing though. If you are trail braking correctly AND using your body correctly AND weighting the peg at the right time and amount, then the bike will want to run off the inside of the corner cause it is turning so well.

Assuming you have good body position and the bike has good tires on it, it is actually quite difficult to lean the bike over too far. For me, if my body position is correct, and I am scrubbing my toes and rearsets, then I know that I am pretty close to max lean. Again, IF my body position is correct...otherwise my toes are dragging cause I am being lazy and not getting off the bike enough.

Self preservation and fear make it pretty hard to carry so much lean angle that you actually roll off the side of the tires. If you do lean the bike too far and "run out of tire", then the bike will definitely start to squirm around under you. You will know that you have leaned it too far.

Here's a good example of about as far over as I can get the bike before it starts to squirm around:

 

[Meat]

:agree:

I started trailbraking really easily and progressed form there and I probably still have decent traction left. Your lines may also change slightly as you increase or decrease your trailbraking.

I think you also have a lot more control with trailbraking. For example, going into T1 at Barber, I usually brake very late but if I am wanting to pass another rider in T1, I will set up on the outside edge of the track and lightly brake as the rider in front of me brakes. If the rider in front leans in and I have room, I let off the brakes and shoot around the outside of him. If he turns in late, then I just brake as he does and follow him through the turn.

 

[ZOOK131]

Thanx again guys....Ronhix maybe one day I will be able to lean over like you:adore:. I will practice this wknd @Barber

 

[LesPow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8pnaRpDU1A

Key point taken was using same brake marker, but varying braking pressure as you set up for entry. You dont have to trail every turn or always trail in turn one or two etc... It could bite you, depending on tire wear, track conditions etc... But it is a skill to have in the bag and learn from. Many ways to brake, choose all.

 

[stow]

Meat;19768 wrote: I really try to concentrate on keeping the bike as stable as possible, so I personally tend to be a trail braker....and often trail brake when I actually don't need to.

You know better. There is a good section in Twist II about why you are trail braking when it is not necessary. I am in the same boat, so I am working hard on this issue.

 

[Meat]

stow;20168 wrote: You know better. There is a good section in Twist II about why you are trail braking when it is not necessary. I am in the same boat, so I am working hard on this issue.

:haha::doh: