Braking zone technique

[noobinacan]

going into high speed braking zones...
after the braking marker, do you all pick downshift markers - to start downshifting ?
for example VIR-N
Braking marker at 6 and downshift marker at 4 ?

 

[sobottka]

i dont. i usually just go by ear/feel.
is this even possible? :dunno:

 

[Dave561]

I do the same, pick a brake marker apply the brakes and then downshift as the revs decrease so that I don't over-rev the motor. Try not to over process the procedure. Find your braking point and focus on the apex. Let the rest fall in to place

 

[dpullen]

I do have downshift markers, but they aren't physical spots on the track (whereas my brake and upshift markers are physical spots on the track).

My markers are related to a cadence of action. Using your VIR T1 example, for me it's like this:
- Move butt to right side at 6
- Roll off and start to apply brakes at 4
- Look through turn 1, downshifting 4 times (blipping and clutching between each shift)
- Initiate turn with head and shoulder.

Because you are looking through the turn while braking, you can't use precise points on the track in front of you as markers. Your peripheral vision will pick up some details, but not normally enough to bang out 4 gears precisely. The main thing you should be focusing on is your turn-in point. In fact, there are times when I downshift during the turn-in process (T1 at RoadAtl is one example).

- Dave

 

[Rick Johnson]

It's better to use a reference. If there are no markers numbered look for a spot on the track such as a dark spot or something like that or maybe something right near the edge of the track you can use as a brake marker. At VIR North on a 1000 I let off at #6 start to squezze the brakes at #5 and start downshifting about the same time. Using brake markers you can try braking later and later until you go so late you think a aren't going to make the corner. That's when you turn it in and when you make it your like damn I made it. I managed to hit some 1.32's last Sept. so it seems to be working.

 

[sobottka]

i suppose using markers for downshifting would be as valuable as using markers for upshifting ...you really cant

 

[noobinacan]

that's what I have been doing so far...by feel.
I will continue to do this vs over-engineer the process.

 

[Chad Dupree]

I don't use downshift markers, but I have brake markers that I use. I do have upshift marks on the corner exit tho.

Upshift markers just lets me know how I'm rolling thru that corner. Ex turn 9 at Roebling If I hit my shift marks on the exit, I know about how fast I'm going. If I hit them early, then I know I'm going faster thru there than the lap before. If I hit them later, then I'm going slower thru there and I need to pick it up.

 

[AU_R1]

I just jam on the brakes, slam through the gears, and pray the slipper clutch does its job. j/k (This is the procedure I use when I miss my braking marker for 10a at Road Atlanta)

Seriously though, I don't use markers for downshifting, it's more of a similar sequence that I use for each particular corner. Listen to the engine and use your best judgement really. I can't say I understand using markers for upshifting either. While consistency is obviously a good thing, unless you're going the exact same speed at exactly the same place on every lap I don't think shifting at the exact same spot is as beneficial as shifting when the power curve dictates.

 

[vinny337]

Like most of the others NESBIANS have said I have break makers and down shift (GP) markers. It's working for me...

 

[speedfree]

AU_R1;171348 wrote: .
Seriously though, I don't use markers for downshifting, it's more of a similar sequence that I use for each particular corner. Listen to the engine and use your best judgement really..

I also use more of the "rhythm method." I def use brake markers, but they can get moved back if I feel like I'm having a good day (or a good dice w/ somebody & I need to go a tad deeper...).

Some turns I'll actually bang a downshift or two BEFORE braking, almost as I sit up - T10a at Road Atl or T(whatisit?)12?? at the end of the backstraight at VIR Full are good examples...blast in a little further while banging down to fifth, then down one or two more while braking heavy...but always with the same rhythm: shift..brakes..shift, shift...tip in, off brakes, apex, crack open, roll on. WFO asap!

 

[dbakerpa]

The marker you use also depends on your speed coming into the corner which may vary by traffic and and how much momentum you want to carry into the corner to pass for instance. I would defer to Dave and Sobottka but I would assume that the brake marker you use would also depend on this. I know it does for me but on the SV I can scrub alot off after I lean it in when I brake late and pass entering a corner. I can only guess it is the same on a faster heavier bike.

 

[RubberSideDown]

dpullen;171293 wrote: I do have downshift markers, but they aren't physical spots on the track (whereas my brake and upshift markers are physical spots on the track).

My markers are related to a cadence of action. Using your VIR T1 example, for me it's like this:
- Move butt to right side at 6
- Roll off and start to apply brakes at 4
- Look through turn 1, downshifting 4 times (blipping and clutching between each shift)
- Initiate turn with head and shoulder.

Because you are looking through the turn while braking, you can't use precise points on the track in front of you as markers. Your peripheral vision will pick up some details, but not normally enough to bang out 4 gears precisely. The main thing you should be focusing on is your turn-in point. In fact, there are times when I downshift during the turn-in process (T1 at RoadAtl is one example).

- Dave

Can you break down the proper sequence of events more indepth when coming off of a straight and getting in to the turn concerning proper downshifting? Being a beginner I struggle with not matching rpm and gear when downshifting and tend to slide the rear a bit. This forces me to brake sooner than I should so I get the shifting done while still straght up. If I brake deeper and don't get to the gear I want in time I will just hold the clutch through the apex. Any help is appreciated.:dunno:

 

[FaceRace98]

RubberSideDown;171424 wrote: Can you break down the proper sequence of events more indepth when coming off of a straight and getting in to the turn concerning proper downshifting? Being a beginner I struggle with not matching rpm and gear when downshifting and tend to slide the rear a bit. This forces me to brake sooner than I should so I get the shifting done while still straght up. If I brake deeper and don't get to the gear I want in time I will just hold the clutch through the apex. Any help is appreciated.:dunno:

Do you blip the throttle on downshifts?

 

[Meat]

I don't have any downshift markers that I can think of. At VIR North T1, I just brake, pull 4 downshifts (letting the clutch out between each shift).

I think I only have one upshift marker and that is only because I have to short shift at one spot on the top section at VIR North.

 

[barry38]

RubberSideDown;171424 wrote: Can you break down the proper sequence of events more indepth when coming off of a straight and getting in to the turn concerning proper downshifting? Being a beginner I struggle with not matching rpm and gear when downshifting and tend to slide the rear a bit. This forces me to brake sooner than I should so I get the shifting done while still straght up. If I brake deeper and don't get to the gear I want in time I will just hold the clutch through the apex. Any help is appreciated.:dunno:

If you're having issues with locking the rear tire on downshifts you need to learn to "blip" the throttle as you release the clutch to bring up the rpm's. In my experience people who have problems blipping the throttle while braking tend to have to much weight on their arms/hands while braking causing them to be very stiff in the shoulders/elbows locked. It's very hard to make control inputs when you upper body is locked.

If you are so rushed going into a corner that you can't complete braking/downshifting and you have coast through the apex with the clutch in, then I highly suggest you do start braking earlier so you can complete them. Once you become more proficient with making these control inputs you can adjust you braking accordingly.

Rushing turn entry by "late braking" will only get you in trouble. It causes you to panic, making it impossible to be smooth or consistent. The brake marker you choose should allow you to complete all needed actions to slow and steer the bike to the apex (and I'm not even going to get into trail braking here, which is a whole other subject) then apply throttle to drive off the corner. You should never, ever go through a corner with the clutch in, even if you are a gear or two higher than you want to be.

 

[madriders86]

Chad Dupree;171337 wrote: I don't use downshift markers, but I have brake markers that I use. I do have upshift marks on the corner exit tho.

Upshift markers just lets me know how I'm rolling thru that corner. Ex turn 9 at Roebling If I hit my shift marks on the exit, I know about how fast I'm going. If I hit them early, then I know I'm going faster thru there than the lap before. If I hit them later, then I'm going slower thru there and I need to pick it up.

Sounds like a great way to gauge how you're doing without the use of a lap timer. Thanks for that tidbit.

 

[RubberSideDown]

barry38;171447 wrote: If you're having issues with locking the rear tire on downshifts you need to learn to "blip" the throttle as you release the clutch to bring up the rpm's. In my experience people who have problems blipping the throttle while braking tend to have to much weight on their arms/hands while braking causing them to be very stiff in the shoulders/elbows locked. It's very hard to make control inputs when you upper body is locked.

If you are so rushed going into a corner that you can't complete braking/downshifting and you have coast through the apex with the clutch in, then I highly suggest you do start braking earlier so you can complete them. Once you become more proficient with making these control inputs you can adjust you braking accordingly.

Rushing turn entry by "late braking" will only get you in trouble. It causes you to panic, making it impossible to be smooth or consistent. The brake marker you choose should allow you to complete all needed actions to slow and steer the bike to the apex (and I'm not even going to get into trail braking here, which is a whole other subject) then apply throttle to drive off the corner. You should never, ever go through a corner with the clutch in, even if you are a gear or two higher than you want to be.

Thanks Barry and Matt.
No I don't blip. Sound like I need to learn the blip and move back the brake point so I can setup my entry speed better. (All those fast guys tell me smoother is faster)
Being a beginner I probably am to stiff and have too much weight forward. I am also challeged with short arms and fingers which I imagine is another impediment. I can check and adjust my brake lever is in the position closest to the bar to help with the short fingers. Should I absorb braking force through the tank or just work on keeping my elbows bent? Also how should I apply the brake to properly blip, two fingers on the brake and two on the grip? From years of street riding I have all four on the brake.

 

[dpullen]

Blipping is a very important skill, even if you have a slipper clutch. Having your weight forward isn't a problem, as long as your weight is low (on the tank with your stomach, rather than on the clipons).

I use 1 finger on the brake (my middle finger), and then use my thumb and index finger to blip. I have short fingers, and this is the only way I have managed to get comfortable with all of the small actions and brake lever control necessary to brake and downshift. I know people who do 2 or 3 finger braking and can blip with just the thumb/palm. Pick 1 day, and try 1 approach all day. If it ends up working, great! If not, pick a different day and try a different approach all day. Give it an honest try, at first it will definitely feel awkward. Hopefully by the end of the day, you will find that it becomes second nature.

Get comfortable with blipping BEFORE you move your brake markers! Master the technique, then use it to go faster.

As for breaking down the sequence, here is what I do:
- Apply a little bit of pressure on the shifter with my foot
- Pull in the clutch; this allows the shifter to move and select the next gear
- Blip the throttle
- Release the clutch just until it gets to the friction zone (not all the way out)
- Repeat for the next gear

Note that the above sequence of actions is separated by about 1/4 of a second. Each shift takes less than 1 second to complete.

I only let the clutch all the way out after the last downshift. The goal for me is to minimize the motion of my left fingers, which helps minimize arm pump.

Other guys certainly have different ways of achieving the same goal, I'm sure they will chime in with ideas. Again, try different ways (on different days) and see what works for you!

- Dave

 

[dpullen]

BTW, this might be a good article for The Belly Pan...