Chronicles of a Noob - My journey from Beginner to Advanced Rider

beac83

Member
Trent1098S;139490 wrote: If I were to go back and do it all over again, I would do it on a 600.

(...)

I remember many "what bike should I get" threads where the old guys spoke about this very issue, but I didn't believe that I would ever allow myself to fall in to the trap.

I thought I was in control, but clearly, I'm not.

(...)

If I find I can't find any enjoyment at all at a slower pace, or I'm unable to keep myself in check and I find myself pushing again (this year, next year, whenever), then it means the risk factor is uncontrollable for me and this hobby is a danger because of the way I'm wired inside. I'll cut my losses and leave, and everyone can get on with their lives without any further drama.

To those who have been following the thread all this time, perhaps the most important lesson I can share above all others, is any adrenaline-driven sport can - and almost certainly will be - hazardous to those people who have addictive personalities.


I thought I was in total, absolute control, right up to the point I got hurt.

Then I realized I wasn't in control at all, of anything - I was merely along for the ride after the hook set in.

If you're riding for the rush you get, be forewarned of the eventual outcome - you'll find yourself in my shoes someday.

I'm gonna check out of here for awhile, will come back on hopefully in August or September. When I come back, I'm just riding to ride, I'm riding to have fun, to get out for the weekend. No more chasing the rabbit. That part of me got left behind on the ambulance as I left Road America.

Thanks for the well wishes, everyone, you'll be in my thoughts.

Trent,

I consider you a friend and enjoy talking with you and reading your posts, and seeing you in the paddock and on the track. I hope you heal up as fast as possible and get your mind settled down and get back out here with us. But I gotta jump in here and say a thing or two.

You already have recognized what needs to be done to correct the issues. But I think you are coming at it from the wrong angle. You keep focusing on the mechanics of the bike, the track, the tires, etc.

The issue is your approach to riding. You keep looking at it like A+B=Faster, and keep adding equipment variables and combinations/permutations to the equation to try to acheive faster and faster quicker. But you know better. You let the rush and the competitiveness get in the way of what you know is a more wholistic path to achievement of speed and skills.

From your posts, you seem have achieved this more full mind-body approach in shooting and karate, but have not yet applied it to your riding.

It's not just the machine mechanicals + the body position + doing X action at Y time. It's all of that PLUS a mindset. You've been in the wrong mindset to achieve.



Pretty much everyone here knows I highsided on a litrebike at my first trackday. That was my first ever motorcycle crash in over 35 years of riding. It scared the living crap out of me, and if I had managed to break my collarbone or sustain any serious injury, I probably would have quit. But I was lucky, and only badly bruised, and like you I'm too damn stubborn to quit while a machine has the better of me, so I came back - slow as crap and frightened out of my mind for two more days before I'd even allow myself to think about whether or not I'd come back or quit. And I became an addict in those two days.

I spent the next year and a half trying to do what you've been doing - albeit it at a much slower pace - trying to manhandle the machine into doing what I want it to do - chasing pace while still being very afraid of pushing myself into another heavy duty crash. I managed to crash several times doing that, and nearly cause others to crash a few times as well.

I had a crappy year last summer, and was very frustrated by the time we were at ACC in September. I vented to Chad, who gave me some blunt feedback (Thanks), and worked with me to calm me down the next day. But I was still on the same track and doing the same things. Discussions at Road Atlanta last December started the change for me. That rainy afternoon where Alan, you and I sat talking started the dim glow of the light in my thick skull. "Learn how to work with the bike." So I stopped worrying about being the slowest guy in B and started trying to learn how to work in harmony with the bike rather than to control the bike. Six track days later, with the support of the NESBA CR's and staff, I'm running very near the front of B, having a lot more fun, feeling more confident about playing in traffic, and even setting up and executing some passes. (For me, these are big deals.)

All because I finally gave up trying to do it my way, and took a different approach of trying to use the pointers/feedback/instruction offered to work with the bike rather than to control the bike.

[And I know I crashed in June and am in the healing process myself - I still am making mistakes and have much more to learn. My bad decisions were made a full corner back, because I hadn't been looking far enough ahead to match my newly increased pace.]



A long story to get to my point. You need a new approach in your mind. You need to set aside your competitive nature
for a while, and listen to the truths folks here are trying to impart, rather than to rebut each argument individually. You need to not worry about people passing you, and dial your competitive nature back a notch (or three). Track Days aren't a competitive sport, and for someone who has a need to compete at everything, that's hard to cope with.

This is an individual sport, where the achievement and improvement is measured for each one of us independently of the others out there. It's more like you pick something to work on for the day, and work at it, regardless of what the others in your group are doing. No one out here is trying to "beat" you at this game. You don't have to "win" every time.

It's not the adrenaline, it's the need to compete that appears to me to be the problem.

You have good solid skills. You are a better rider than many out there, including me. You have a lot to give to others in this sport. But you let your need to compete get in the way of all that, and it costs you big. And hurts, especially as the speed increases. So stop it. Find a way to turn it off during track days. This includes competing with yourself in your mind, too.

So turn off the competition mindset, set aside the ego. If you want to try a 600, you can take mine out if you want. We want you to stay with us, without injury, and as a healthy member of the NESBA family. The choice of how to move forward from here is yours.
 

BLARNEY

Member
Zippy;139553 wrote: Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

What helps you ignore or have control over the feeling of danger, is peace of mind. That comes from experience in dealing with the great dichotomy of acute awareness of danger, and the ability to execute in a disciplined manner regardless.

In Karate, you have drilled endlessly to cement the moves in place so that you can perform them even when under attack, right? After you have done all the drills, and paid your dues by practicing with discipline, then you just need to get your mind out of the way and let it flow. After the skills are hard-wired, you can relax and trust yourself. The next stage is to forget yourself and your fears and focus on the moment.

Track riding is the same. You have no time to build a plan and then execute it while you are about to enter a turn going at your best speed. The plan has to already be there from practice. You need to drill it in so it is ready to use, so it will just happen when you need it to. Trying to perform from sheer effort alone will not get you there.

Lindsay is on track here.....


Sometimes the hardest thing to do is nothing when nothing is the right thing to do.


Takes time to learn to not flinch.



As for adrenaline....... my fastest laps always come when I am the most calm.

What feels fast..... is exciting .... but not very fast.

What is fast....... feels like your out for a Sunday ride...... no drama..... just speed.



Tom



Tom
 

stkr

New Member
Hey Trent, you could take my bike out for a try. Dropping 100 HP from what you're used to should slow you down some. :D
 
Zippy;139506 wrote: When I tell people about my hobby, they say that I must be an adrenalin junkie. I felt a big rush when I first started out, but that was due to nerves. I tell them that the object and goal is to remain cool and calm, and in control under the most extreme conditions possible. What makes this sport so addicting for me is that you have to stay calm and do the right thing even as every fiber is screaming to do the wrong thing.

For example, when your rear tire starts to slide, the natural reaction is to chop throttle, which is exactly the worst thing you can possibly do. Or when you are heading into what would normally be a 25mph on the street doing 150+, and braking at your maximum level, just to turn it in at the correct split second, when the normal reaction is to just to keep heading straight and slam on the brakes.

It is actually the suppression of adrenalin that keeps you safe and fast. It is the suppression of your own animal reactions that is the whole challenge of this sport. The thrill is in the mastery of yourself, not in scaring yourself. It is in learning how to get out of the way, and let the bike do what it is designed to do. You can't do that if you have too much adrenalin coursing through your veins. That is why they say you need to relax on the bike. This is why often your best, fastest and safest laps are those where you riding easy, and just getting your mind and natural reactions out of the way. You work to develop skills, and then just let it happen.
Couldn't have said it better! My biggest rush now is getting off the track and realizing I just ran a great session, SMOOTH, without any "oh shits!" or adrenaline moments, totally in control, to the point where it felt slow. That is one of the best feelings in the world. Even my wife will comment on how comfortable, but fast, I looked.
 
Trent1098S;139432 wrote:
Screw going fast, or wrenching on the gas. Anyone can pin a throttle. It takes skill to be able to corner properly, even more skill to do it consistently every corner, every lap - and I utterly lack that.

Get a 250.
 

Kordyte

Member
I've got probably $4000 into this sport - I paid a little over 2k for my amazingly set up 600, under 500 for used/free gear, a grand in trackday fees this year, and probably 500 in gas and other stuff I forgot.

It'll be worth it to get creative with your finances/number of bikes to get a 600. Don't be afraid to get something older.

Not only it'll be safer, but I can almost guarantee you'll have more fun. I've got a pretty K5 GSXR1000 in my garage, but it bores me and I'm selling it. 600's all the way, both street and track.
 

GBCBR

New Member
Lots of good information in the above posts. I like the comment about the rider that has 127 trackdays/races with only one crash. I'm up to 12 trackdays without a crash or off-track excursion. Kinda off topic...but who has the most trackdays without a crash? Obviously, if I hold my current mid pack "I" pace, I could do track days for years like a Sunday drive....but some things you cannot control...such as other riders, oil, animals, flat tires, etc....plus, I get slightly smoother every track day....and slightly faster.

Trent--good luck and good insight. I do have to say when I heard that the "A" session at RA was red flagged due to an accident.....my thought was "what did Trent do now?" You are a great ambassador to the sport...I'm sure you will be an asset to NESBA in 5 years explaining to the younger riders your experience.
 

xlink

New Member
dmb367;139741 wrote: sell everything and get an sv 650 . . . .

seriously!
John Gu had one for sale (maybe he still does)...kinda rough on the eyes (Gu-cci design, hand made Haute Couture edition), but it looked good mechanically. Just offer him a few of those Chinese coins with the square hole in the middle.
 

jami

New Member
Wow, some of you guys are really harsh! Trent stopped having fun when he recieved the A bump. It took crashing at RA for him to really realize this. For him to come here and admit that he needed to go back to I group to work on issues and recieve coaching shocked me! Trent is an adrenaline junkie and he always wanted to "go fast" but he wants to do it safely not only for himself also for the other riders on the track. I don't believe that he was trying to scare anyone or any new riders, he was making an observation about himself.

I agree if he could force himself to stay calm, he would ride better and his head would be more clear. This is something I have learned while dealing with 5 kids. Staying calm has helped me get through all of Trent's crashes.

After reading all of these posts, I agree a 600 may be a better bike for him. It seems a little "safer" and I think if he were to ride one on the track he might agree. After borrowing someone's 1000, he decided he liked it better than the Ducati, so the same might be true for the 600. I will work on this ;)

Finally, a very wise man once told me...never brag about how many track days you have done without crashing, because once you brag about it, you will crash!!!
 

BLARNEY

Member
GOing faster is something you learn to do over time..... a and many of the lessons are
made more difficult to learn by a fast bike.


Imagine that you decide to take up the sport of diving..... so you immediately go to the
highest dive platform and try the hardest dive ....right ? No.

You have none of the skills, drills and experience yet...... so you start on lower ( less painful )
boards and do dives that allow you to build body memory and skills along the way. Now when
you return to the high board you bring all that experience with you and it allows you to safely
master the difficult. Fear is replaced by quiet confidence. The impossible becomes possible.


600's are by no means slow, they are more forgiving than a litre bike ..... and a 600 ridden by
someone of advanced skills can go around a racetrack pretty near as fast as anything.


A great learning tool.


Tom
 

iamnotgreg

New Member
In 7 years on internet forums I have read more good advice in this thread than I had in all the preceding years.
Jami - maybe I missed something but I wouldn't call what Craig or Lindsay said harsh at all. I think it's rather spot on at least from my outside looking in perspective.

People often overlook the mental aspects of this - I know Trent doesn't, but nobody can see as clearly into themselves as someone from the outside can - he might see things they don't but the others are definitely going to see some things he has missed by virtue of a different vantage point or pov.

Heal up - Hope to ride with you sometime before you bump bump bump back to A
 

biznacho

New Member
jami;139773 wrote: Wow, some of you guys are really harsh! I don't believe that he was trying to scare anyone or any new riders, he was making an observation about himself.
Jami, I know Trent wasn't trying to scare anyone, but this thread has become a popular read for newer riders. My concern is that Trent's overly dramatic tales of his crashes could scare/intimidate noobs or worse: keep street guys from trying the track.

jami;139773 wrote:
Finally, a very wise man once told me...never brag about how many track days you have done without crashing, because once you brag about it, you will crash!!!
Nobody is bragging! The comment about 1 crash in 127 days was simply meant to demonstrate to newer riders that crashing all the fucking time does not have to be part of this sport. That is all.

I'm fully aware that I might crash the next time I throw a leg over a bike. If I do it wont be because some really, really, really nice person tried to cast some bad juju on me because she misinterpreted a comment I made.:nada:

biznacho out!
 

Trent1098S

New Member
iamnotgreg;

I think Jami was talking about this. I never responded to it.

biznacho;139534 wrote: Holy Fucking Drama Queen Batman! Trent, your inability to ride within the limits of your CURRENT skill set is just plain wrong. To come on here with all this drama crap and scare the bejeezus out of newer riders is wrong x 10000000000.

This shit ain't rocket science dude. We learn the fundamentals and apply them, gradually picking up the pace. Touch a curb? Run wide? etc. Slow the fuck down a little and get it right. Try to always stay comfortable and sneak up on the limits of traction so that you are given a warning.

I'm sorry to harsh on you, but I couldn't take any more of this "BOOGIE MAN is gonna git you shit". I know a CR that rolls hard in the top of "A" and has ONE
crash in his last 127
race days and trackdays.
The truth is we're not machines.. the motorcycles are. We're all people that - as much as some of us don't want to admit it - do indeed feel and make errors in judgment. Zippy's right, there's more to this than physical stamina and reflexes, what happens between your ears matters - and that's not just tactics and decision making, that's also all the other baggage of thought, including emotions. As Craig said, some people live inside themselves in a continual feedback loop that can (and often does) turn negative. Some people have a hard time accepting failure.

You have to have confidence to run fast, and I've noticed you can get fed to the wolves pretty quick in this sport if you say or do something that might air out any of the negative aspects. It's actually rather predictable in a way, and I don't take offense to it. When people say things like this it reinforces their own beliefs, shores up their own confidence, and lets them continue to believe that they're right.

Look at Rossi's following, the guy didn't miss a race start running at the top level ofthe sport due to an injury in what, over 10 years? Look at the CR mentioned above, that has run 127 track days and races without a crash. Sure, it's possible, those people have been blessed with superior self control and natural ability.

The rest of us, we're what you call mere mortals, easily fallible human beings with an entire life chock full of bad decisions, regret, and doubt trailing us out to the track each weekend. Kids who start young run faster than us older guys, like me, that didn't start riding until we're in the middle of a mid-life crisis and thought we'd find an answer on a sportbike. Is it because they're young, and in better shape? Or is it because they haven't lived a life yet where they learn over and over again that they ultimately make flawed decisions?

The only things that keep you from going deeper on the brakes is doubt and fear. The only thing that makes you back off when you could stay on the throttle is doubt and fear.

Don't do newer riders a disservice by saying there's an easy pattern of A+B+C, and if they follow it, they can't possibly ever get hurt. Because you're not in their head when they are riding, you are not at the controls - they are, and you do not know the amount of self doubt they have... which, by the way, is ultimately the switch that gets thrown when they get on the brakes or the throttle in front of you on the track. It's the very thing that drives their response and reflex when another rider goes off track or is laying in their path.

What works for one person will NOT work for the next person. In general, yes, the concepts are general enough to apply and fit to yourself, but not precisely. How do you tell, for instance, when someone is holding back because of fear or doubt? Do you assume that they have the skill to push it a little further and tell them to suck it up and take off the skirt? Or can you tell that their skill is not up to it, and tell them to relax and slow down?

Fact is you don't know what's going on inside their head, and how they're receiving the information. We've got to figure THAT part out for ourselves and decide if we're ready, or not. And sometimes.. people screw that decision up because they're not prepared to accept failure, that they're not quite ready to push that marker back any more.

They wanna go fast, and they're not prepared to accept that they aren't ready.

There is a clear argument to make that too many people go out overly confident and under skilled, and ride back on the crash truck. You can say what you want to say about how to avoid it, but until they've gained a healthy respect of what happens when one separates themselves from several hundred pounds of motorcycle at high speed with a thin sheet of leather and padding to separate you from earth, asphault, tire walls, and other riders... they just don't listen.

You bet your ass the "boggy-man", as you call it, is waiting for each and every one of us, if we - for one instant - don't respect the speed and forces involved. How hard he bites merely depends on how lucky we are that day we grow just a little too overly confident, cocky, or arrogant.

I have to admit I got pissed when I read what you wrote, and decided not to respond to it. I gave it time, and cooled off a little. I wanted to think about what you said with a clear head.

It's kind of funny, when you look at it, because we wrote the same things in a way. I've been saying for the last week that I'm going to, as you put it, "slow the fuck down a little and get it right" (and here is WHY). You basically said don't talk about the reasons, it'll scare people.. just do it.

I disagree in that I will talk about the reasons. John is right, I'm an individual and we're all different. No other rider is going to be exactly like me, obviously. As I mentioned above it's a general pattern and we have to fit it to ourselves, best we can.

But don't think for one minute there aren't other arrogant bastards like me out there, overly confident of themselves and not able to accept that they might be the sole problem that is the obstruction to any further improvement in their skill, because there are.

And don't tell people they can't get hurt doing this, or that the "boogey-man" ain't waiting for them, because that's a flat out lie. All it takes is a split-second for things to go badly wrong once you stop respecting the consequences. Judging by the number of times I've seen the crash truck and ambulance roll over the last three years, that happens far too often.

So no, I don't believe I'm doing a disservice to any new riders by telling people that it's OK to back off a bit, to make decisions for the right reasons.

I was using speed as a goal
, instead of a measuring stick
. I wanted to go fast. And once that became my sole motivation to improve, that set a certain chain of events in motion. Confidence is required to go fast, to trust that things will turn out right when you stay on the gas longer, brake later, turn faster, get on the throttle harder. It's easy to believe once you reach a certain point in riding, once you've convinced yourself that you've mastered the basics (whether true or not), that ALL you need to do is suppress your fear and doubt in order to go faster.

It's ironic that in order to improve your skill and speed at navigating a race track your goal has to be something other than going fast, but there it is.
 

jami

New Member
iamnotgreg...I was referring to biznacho's post that Trent quoted. Trent has showed me how to quote people before, but I can't remember how to do it. You are right Craig and Lindsay's (and several others) posts were not harsh.

biznacho...I am not wanting any bad juju on anyone's bike!!! I wish everyone could go to the track, have the time of their lives, and go home safely, I would never wish any harm on anyone! Maybe the word 'brag' was the wrong one. But, crashing happens and usually when someone starts mentioning how many track days they have gone without crashing, it means they are becoming overconfident, get careless, and crash. That is how the 'wise man' explained it to me.

Anyway, I hope everyone goes out, has fun, and goes home safely!!!
 

Trent1098S

New Member
biznacho;139831 wrote: Jami, I know Trent wasn't trying to scare anyone, but this thread has become a popular read for newer riders. My concern is that Trent's overly dramatic tales of his crashes could scare/intimidate noobs or worse: keep street guys from trying the track.
And there it is. We riders keep our dirty laundry in the closet, we don't use the C word or R word before or at a track day, and we (riders in general) do our best not to scare the hell out of new riders because it takes a few days on the track for that huge initial jolt of fear and adrenaline to wear off before someone decides if this sport is for you. It's easy for people to say "oh crap I can get hurt doing this", and we never see them again.

Believe me, I considered the consequences of what I wrote, before hitting the submit button. I always do, because after what this thread has become over the years, it is my responsibility.

The fact is, far more people quit because they crash than because they are afraid of crashing. They're not afraid of crashing until they DO crash. Sure, they don't WANT to crash, and they tell themselves they won't crash. They suppress thought of it because most of the time people simply get up and walk away. We pat ourselves on the back, thank our safety gear, and go back out again.

The first time I saw a transport it scared the hell out of me. But I went out again. The next time I went out on the track I was IN a transport and it made me quit altogether - it was nearly a year before I threw a leg over a bike again.

I got a lot of experience between crashes. When I crashed again at Blackhawk, the bike pummeled me, and I still went out and rode with some minor injuries the next day. I did fine. I got back on the horse and I immediately suppressed my fear of going down again. I had a blast doing it.

But I honestly gained no respect for it. I'd mastered fear and doubt, pulled out the second bike, and rode the wheels off that thing.

Then one of my track buddies broke his neck at the end of the next day.

I was pitted right next to him, and I still wonder if my quick bounce back from my off on the previous day might have had anything to do with his crash. Did I set an incorrect example that our safety gear is so good that even on a bad crash, where the bike lands on you, chews you up, and spits you out, that you can still sit around the campfire at night, toss back a few beers, and laugh about it, only to go out the next day and shrug off some minor bumps and bruises?

I'm not saying new riders should get scared to hell. I truly believe that riding on the track can be a healthy learning experience and teaches people to respond properly
when decisions must be made without thought, but with trained reflexes.

All I'm saying is that a little fear and doubt is natural, and necessary
. Everyone's confidence level dictates how easy it is to suppress this - I was able to almost totally suppress it, as I considered it an obstacle to going faster. I had absolutely zero fear even WHILE I was tumbling down the track. Wasn't until I saw the bike coming straight at me, and felt the impact, that reality set in.

That ambulance ride was a bad time. I was ready to quit all over again, for good this time, but as I lay alone in the hospital bed for the next 5 hours, and that long day the next day on the way home, I thought quite a lot about what I did wrong.

In the end, I was wrong about that decision. Yes, you need to have confidence to go fast, but don't think that ignoring fear and doubt is the answer. Skill is the answer, speed doesn't matter.

So I made the very real decision to back off and practice my riding skills on the track, instead of chasing a lap time. To use track days to improve my skill, learn more about myself, and as an instrument to improve upon my lifestyle. It's driving me to become physically fit now, it's made me understand some basic character flaws I have in that I'm an egotistic bastard, and it has reinforced that to ignore and suppress our most basic natural instincts of self preservation CAN be achieved, but it doesn't always have very good results.

I believe this is the right
decision, for me.

Everyone else will need to judge themselves, for themselves.
 

rk97

Member
Trent1098S;139857 wrote: iamnotgreg;

Look at the CR mentioned above, that has run 127 track days and races without a crash.

[...]

The rest of us, we're what you call mere mortals, easily fallible human beings with an entire life chock full of bad decisions, regret, and doubt
trailing us out to the track each weekend.
whoa, whoa, whoa... I've seen PLENTY of control riders make bad decisions that they regret; granted most of them happen off the track, after 5:00 with multiple beers ingested, but I think the CR's are the first to dispel any notion of their own infallibility. :D

Trent - you've already acknowledged that you're an analytical person. You've also acknowledged that you're competitive. backing off your pace and "letting things be" simply won't sit well with you. That's totally cool. It's who you are, and I firmly believe that those qualities probably helped you a lot more than they've hurt you throughout your life.

Just don't forget that it's your life to live, and not anyone else's. We can speculate and advise ad nauseum, but you've been you forever. None of us have even been you for a day. Whatever decision you make will be the right decision for you
. Besides, it's not like you're hacking off a limb here - you can always change your mind.
 

iamnotgreg

New Member
jami;139872 wrote: iamnotgreg...I was referring to biznacho's post that Trent quoted. Trent has showed me how to quote people before, but I can't remember how to do it. You are right Craig and Lindsay's (and several others) posts were not harsh.

biznacho...I am not wanting any bad juju on anyone's bike!!! I wish everyone could go to the track, have the time of their lives, and go home safely, I would never wish any harm on anyone! Maybe the word 'brag' was the wrong one. But, crashing happens and usually when someone starts mentioning how many track days they have gone without crashing, it means they are becoming overconfident, get careless, and crash. That is how the 'wise man' explained it to me.

Anyway, I hope everyone goes out, has fun, and goes home safely!!!
Jami

Sorry, I had missed that one.
This thread has become quite epic and admittedly I am a bit in and out of it.
I do try to keep up because I do like to see Trents take on things, and find that people are actually a bit helpful around here (for the most part) as opposed to the place where I tend to frequent more often.. Which is basically like sitting in a cliquey high school cafeteria all day long.. Lots of drama but not a whole lot of substance... but it makes the day go by - so i refresh refresh refresh.

biz while I can see your point - that was kind of a douchbaggy way of going about it.
like it or not - skill or not - there is a bit of luck involved in this sport. You can be as good as ... anyone.... and have someone take you out. or have something go wrong.

Personally I have hit antifreeze in a corner.. what do you do there? what would Vale do? you crash. I remember a handful of years back one of our local midwest guys took out Reg Pridmore - now Reg is rather well known for being "somewhat" skilled on a bike - but you go out on a race track and there is going to be risk. Is this why Trent has had his offs? I don't know all the reasons that went into his - but crashing does happen and not crashing for 127 days probably owes a bit to both the skill and luck bins.
 
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