cold temp tire strategy?

[noobinacan]

For those of you that have run quick pace in colder temps...
what's your approach in the morning when pavement is cold /ambient temps are cold ?

say for GPA 211's

- run warmers on high or low ?
- tire pressure compared to what's suggested. 32F /23R for above ? any changes you would make ?
- approach to first few laps ?

once you build heat into the tire for say first two three laps...can you start to push even if track temp is cold. lets say 40F or so ??

 

[arhale09]

Someone will be along to correct me if I'm wrong, but if the track is that cold, you're probably never gonna get the tires up to optimum temp. The track will actually pull heat from the tires. I think I've seen several of the CR's will run Q2's below a certain temp, but I don't know what the magic number is.

 

[Billsv/R6]

if it's below 70 i'm not going on track

 

[booboo1]

Billsv/R6;220273 wrote: if it's below 70 i'm not going on track

What the *&^T. Are you kidding? Talk about fair weather rider? Or another name, P**&sy. JK

 

[dlockhart5x]

I'm a Pirelli fan and have good luck with the Rosso tires for those days when it is too cold or damp for race rubber. The street based performance tires now-a-days are pretty darn good. I have been at the track, knee down with snow flurries fluttering about in the wind, quite pleased with "street"tires. They are pretty cheap and durable too. Just get a set and throw them in your tire rack for those less than ideal days.

 

[sobottka]

run your warmers at normal temp, just know that temps may (this will vary depending on your pace and temp) drop and grip will likely suffer. go easy for all laps below 55 or 60 deg with out sunshine and run your rear pressure a bit highrer, say 24-25 psi hot to combat cold tearing (this applies to dunlop only, for other tires you probably want to drop pressure a psi or 2)

 

[Billsv/R6]

booboo1;220274 wrote: What the *&^T. Are you kidding? Talk about fair weather rider? Or another name, P**&sy. JK

I'm old my bones can't get lubed up when it's cold. also F the rain ain't riding in that crap ether.

 

[snikwad]

forget warmers, theyre cold by the time you hit T1, you can use em, but its gonna get cold, and you put around and brake hard on the straights to get some heat back into them. instead of a few turns to make sure theyre good, give it a lap or 2, and just knwo that you wont be going your normal pace regardless, if you do, you might not be lucky.

You could also drop a few psi too, to help the heat process.

 

[ride_hard]

To add to Sobottka's post if you're riding in 40 degree weather, ride like it's wet. Tire heat will dissipate quickly.

 

[ride_hard]

snikwad;220286 wrote: forget warmers, theyre cold by the time you hit T1, you can use em, but its gonna get cold, and you put around and brake hard on the straights to get some heat back into them. instead of a few turns to make sure theyre good, give it a lap or 2, and just knwo that you wont be going your normal pace regardless, if you do, you might not be lucky.

My experience has been the exact opposite. I am sure to run my warmers, and I hope to have heat in them for 2 laps. I can tell the bike is getting loose as heat disappears. I don't leave until the track is hot so I don't sit on hot pit loosing tire heat.

 

[sobottka]

ride_hard;220290 wrote: My experience has been the exact opposite. I am sure to run my warmers, and I hope to have heat in them for 2 laps. I can tell the bike is getting loose as heat disappears. I don't leave until the track is hot so I don't sit on hot pit loosing tire heat.

gotta agree here, run your warmers an extra 20 min if anyrthing and cover them with towels to retain more heat. not running warmers on race tires in the cold would be foolish to say the least. just remember its cold out so take it easy.

 

[cooker1]

billsv/r6;220273 wrote: if it's below 70 i'm not going on track

why ???????????

 

[noobinacan]

k, I threw 40F track temp as a guess from what it was last year at Barber.
and lots of people going down sat morning last year.

like you all said, people didn't realize that going off warmers isn't enough. you loose the heat due to cold track temp and takes about three laps to build it back up...but

sobottka;220281 wrote: run your warmers at normal temp, just know that temps may (this will vary depending on your pace and temp) drop and grip will likely suffer. go easy for all laps below 55 or 60 deg with out sunshine and run your rear pressure a bit highrer, say 24-25 psi hot to combat cold tearing (this applies to dunlop only, for other tires you probably want to drop pressure a psi or 2)

I'm mentally trying to get over the fact that, once there is heat in the tires after three laps. do slicks or DOT race rubber stick and work well enough for say 1:44 - 46's at barber ? Just throwing that out there as a reference point for pace.
what's the tipping point for optimum grip ? track temp 50F at least ? sunny or not.

 

[some guy #2]

^that shouldn't be a problem at that pace

 

[JRA]

Cold track is the is the key part of this that isn't being mentioned. If it's 45 degrees out, bright sunshine, and no wind you are going to have a whole lot better grip that you would have if it's overcast and breezy. It doesn't matter how hot your tires are, the track and the tires together determine your level of grip. The way to know how much grip you have is by the feedback the tires are giving you.

I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned the term "feel". Regardless of the conditions you only push the tires as far as they will let you go. One really solid reason for picking a tire and sticking with it is so you can more easily learn what the tires are telling you. If you go out and do three laps to heat the tires and call it good to start going fast, you're likely going to end up on your head. You pick up the pace as your grip increases with the heating of the tires, and the limiting factors are the tires you are running and the condition of the track. You don't base this on how many laps you've done, you base it on what you are feeling as you are riding.

With a cold track the grip is only going to be a certain amount. The feedback you are getting from the tires will tell you how much this is. Really good riders can maximize this and thus go faster. The morning sessions at a track are going to have less grip when it's cool or cold; this should improve as the track warms through the day (assuming that it gets warmer, the sun comes out, etc.) In the summer the first three or four sessions will probably offer better grip, and the later afternoon sessions at a track will have less grip if it's scorching hot.

One thing that might seem counter intuitive is that in colder temps you don't want to use the softer compounds due to cold tearing. Pick a more durable tire, heat them really well on your warmers, and very gradually pick up the pace as the the tires come in.

In response to one of the earlier posts I'd always rather be on a race tire regardless of temperature.

 

[JRA]

noobinacan;220307 wrote: k, I threw 40F track temp as a guess from what it was last year at Barber.
and lots of people going down sat morning last year.

like you all said, people didn't realize that going off warmers isn't enough. you loose the heat due to cold track temp and takes about three laps to build it back up...but




I'm mentally trying to get over the fact that, once there is heat in the tires after three laps. do slicks or DOT race rubber stick and work well enough for say 1:44 - 46's at barber ? Just throwing that out there as a reference point for pace.
what's the tipping point for optimum grip ? track temp 50F at least ? sunny or not.

Aman,

See my post above. Ambient temp isn't the only factor. You can't say just because it's above fifty I'm ready to roll. You could have the exact same temp two days in a row and have very different levels of grip available. I will say that Barber seems to have less grip early in the morning every month of the year.

One other thing to mention here is riding technique. Fast guys use technique to maximize traction. All other things being equal, a guy who has better technique will have more grip, and as a result be able to go faster than somebody less skilled.

Regarding race tires you can do :44's on either of them or neither of them, depending on other factors. You just take what the track, your tires, and you ability will give you and no more. Generally though, race tires are always going to have better grip in the temps we ride in.

 

[bodell]

JRA;220321 wrote:
One thing that might seem counter intuitive is that in colder temps you don't want to use the softer compounds due to cold tearing..

This is dependent on the tire manufacturer. Dunlop suggests a hard tire in the cold where Bridgestone suggests a soft.

Both compounds benefit from this tip that I will pass along...

The most common cold weather tear occurs when you roll a hot tire onto cold pavement. The outer layer of the tire cools very fast comparatively to the inner layers. This is known as "shock". Effectively the layer in contact to the cold ground hardens up and breaks apart as it is stiff, and floating on a soft, pliable bed of flexing rubber below it.

The way to combat this is to turn your warmers off at first call, then remove them half way between second and third call. This keeps the carcass and air inside the tire up to temp, but lets the surface of the tire come down to a reasonable temperature before hitting the cold pavement.

I also run about a 1 to 1.5 pounds lower pressure in the tires to allow them to flex more. A big function of having a hot tire is to allow the carcass to flex. Running a slightly lower pressure will make up for some of the flex loss from lack of heat, and will help the tire build more heat as well.

 

[sobottka]

bodell;220324 wrote:
The way to combat this is to turn your warmers off at first call, then remove them half way between second and third call. This keeps the carcass and air inside the tire up to temp, but lets the surface of the tire come down to a reasonable temperature before hitting the cold pavement.

I also run about a 1 to 1.5 pounds lower pressure in the tires to allow them to flex more. A big function of having a hot tire is to allow the carcass to flex. Running a slightly lower pressure will make up for some of the flex loss from lack of heat, and will help the tire build more heat as well.

your a bridgestone guy right? this is not reccomended for dunlops.

 

[bodell]

sobottka;220330 wrote: your a bridgestone guy right? this is not reccomended for dunlops.

I have done it with both.

 

[Landshark]

Another factor to consider is suspension temp. Those forks and shock aren't going to compress and rebound like they do at 90F. So now the tire must do more work. This along with a cold track surface will destroy a tire quick and can also over load the tire putting you down. If you can't figure out what adjustments to make its going to be a short day.
Like John pointed out the smooth application of throttle and brake will be of great benefit during cold days.
One other tid bit is check the rim temp. If the rim is cold the tire will never offer 100% grip. If you can get the rim warm then the battle now is surface temp.