CR Body Positioning

[z064life]

motorkas;276027 wrote: Hey broheim, I can't remember if I ran this by you or not but two takeways that really struck me this weekend were this: on day one, anytime I came up on somebody who was running a slower pace, I would sit straight up and coast through the turns not worrying about body positioning. What really messed me up was when I got around them and the pace picked back up, I had lost my "correct" body position. Once I realized that (by looking over the pics from Day 1), I realized that even when we're starting out the day and the pace is slower, I still have to use correct body positioning because it really affected what I "thought" was correct for the rest of day. One day 2, it didn't matter if I was running slow or (what I thought was "fast", I made sure to treat every turn like I was going through it at my "normal" pace. It really helped me alot on day 2, especially after Chris told us "push the bike away from you, don't just 'hang off'".

The second takeaway was probably my most important (until the next one. Simply, seeing that orange shirt in front of you makes most of us "lose our damn minds". It was amazing, got to work with Dennis, Peanut, Chris and Allen and it wasn't until after Chris that I realized that orange shirt made me lose my F'ing mind. Instead of focusing on my turn points, apexs and exit points, I'd fixate on the orange shirt, blow every (and I mean EVERY turn point, never locate my exit point) and blow every conceivable line in epically spectacular proportions. Then would come the headshake and the only way I could get back with them was if they rolled off. Once I figured out I was doing that, the next time I had a CR in front of me (Allen) I literally had to say outloud in my helmet "focus on the markers, not him" and then subsequently, still outloud, call out "turn point". . ."push bike away from you". . ."find exit point". . ."DONT fixate on the orange shirt". It actually helped me alot. . .everything slowed down and I was able to go faster.

To the CR's - thanks again for all the insight in this thread and at the track!!!!!!!!! I did have a question and was hoping to get some pointers on how to go about it. At the end of day two, Allen said what he really wanted to work with me on next time was entry speed and I was really happy because it's definitely an area of improvement for me. The challenge I'm having is that my primary fear is not "going in too hot" (although it is definitely one) but the fact that mid turn is where there's the most inconsistency with speed with other riders in B group. In no way am I saying "I'm the fastest rider in B group" (because I was getting passed plenty of times but most of my "moments" have been happening mid turn because of the riders in front rolling off or waiting to accelerate out the turn. The only time I really got to "push" entry speeds was when there was no one in the turn. How would you go about working on entry speed in this situation? Right now, I'm leaning towards the following as possible strategies and would love any additional ideas (or to see if I'm on the right track). . .

Plan 1 - forget about stringing together the whole track and solely concentrate on entry speed of specific turns - if it gets bunched up, pit in to get a clear track, and if I'm out on track and it get's bunched up, throttle back to create space and then progressive work on building up the speed until I can pit in again.

Plan 2 - line up early so I can get to the front (although I was told that those who do this are looking to get evaluated and I would be doing just to get a clear track for as long as possible)

Plan 3 - Stay out on track, pick two turns, only work on those turns - forget about everything else.

Oh, and I totally forgot - if you think it's bad that their sitting up through the turn with you, I'll send you a pic where Dave is totally "posterizing/photobombing" me at Summit (turn 6 I believe.

Plan 4...beat them in the braking zone results in clear corner

Seriously...focus on 1 corner/area at a time...focusing on the whole track isn't going to work, it's too much.

 

[Dave561]

motorkas;276027 wrote: Hey broheim, I can't remember if I ran this by you or not but two takeways that really struck me this weekend were this: on day one, anytime I came up on somebody who was running a slower pace, I would sit straight up and coast through the turns not worrying about body positioning. What really messed me up was when I got around them and the pace picked back up, I had lost my "correct" body position. Once I realized that (by looking over the pics from Day 1), I realized that even when we're starting out the day and the pace is slower, I still have to use correct body positioning because it really affected what I "thought" was correct for the rest of day. One day 2, it didn't matter if I was running slow or (what I thought was "fast", I made sure to treat every turn like I was going through it at my "normal" pace. It really helped me alot on day 2, especially after Chris told us "push the bike away from you, don't just 'hang off'".

The second takeaway was probably my most important (until the next one. Simply, seeing that orange shirt in front of you makes most of us "lose our damn minds". It was amazing, got to work with Dennis, Peanut, Chris and Allen and it wasn't until after Chris that I realized that orange shirt made me lose my F'ing mind. Instead of focusing on my turn points, apexs and exit points, I'd fixate on the orange shirt, blow every (and I mean EVERY turn point, never locate my exit point) and blow every conceivable line in epically spectacular proportions. Then would come the headshake and the only way I could get back with them was if they rolled off. Once I figured out I was doing that, the next time I had a CR in front of me (Allen) I literally had to say outloud in my helmet "focus on the markers, not him" and then subsequently, still outloud, call out "turn point". . ."push bike away from you". . ."find exit point". . ."DONT fixate on the orange shirt". It actually helped me alot. . .everything slowed down and I was able to go faster.

To the CR's - thanks again for all the insight in this thread and at the track!!!!!!!!! I did have a question and was hoping to get some pointers on how to go about it. At the end of day two, Allen said what he really wanted to work with me on next time was entry speed and I was really happy because it's definitely an area of improvement for me. The challenge I'm having is that my primary fear is not "going in too hot" (although it is definitely one) but the fact that mid turn is where there's the most inconsistency with speed with other riders in B group. In no way am I saying "I'm the fastest rider in B group" (because I was getting passed plenty of times but most of my "moments" have been happening mid turn because of the riders in front rolling off or waiting to accelerate out the turn. The only time I really got to "push" entry speeds was when there was no one in the turn. How would you go about working on entry speed in this situation? Right now, I'm leaning towards the following as possible strategies and would love any additional ideas (or to see if I'm on the right track). . .

Plan 1 - forget about stringing together the whole track and solely concentrate on entry speed of specific turns - if it gets bunched up, pit in to get a clear track, and if I'm out on track and it get's bunched up, throttle back to create space and then progressive work on building up the speed until I can pit in again.

Plan 2 - line up early so I can get to the front (although I was told that those who do this are looking to get evaluated and I would be doing just to get a clear track for as long as possible)

Plan 3 - Stay out on track, pick two turns, only work on those turns - forget about everything else.

Oh, and I totally forgot - if you think it's bad that their sitting up through the turn with you, I'll send you a pic where Dave is totally "posterizing/photobombing" me at Summit (turn 6 I believe.

Now I'm curious. Post the pic

 

[Slow Steve]

Every picture of Dave is a photobomb.uttahere:

 

[Dave561]

Deeper and deeper the hole gets.

 

[Pseudolus]

Thanks again for all of the replies and offers to help. I'll be taking all of you up on it!. I'll also beg Lenny to help me but I hope he doesn't repeat his classroom instruction from Thunderbolt a year ago and start yelling "tits on the tank!" at me...

Besides the answers helping me to relate to how far off their normal pace, the CR's are riding, I was blown away by the concept of preparing for the turn before breaking! I analyzed what is normally going on and besides thinking ALOT, I go through the following:

1. Accelerate like a bat out of hell
2. Start thinking oh shit, I'm not going to make this turn
3. Start calming down as it becomes clear I'll make it. get off of center of seat
4. Repeat

There's comfort in being in the center of the bike while going from step 2 to step 3!
The only time I go immediately to preparing for the next turn is in a chicane. THANK YOU for this info. Will practice at Lightning in a week!:adore:

1. Finish corner, set up for next one
2. Setup before hitting the brakes

 

[JRA]

Just sit back on the couch in the comfort of your own home and watch a professional race. You can learn a lot just by watching your television.

 

[rmadursk]

Countersteering?

noobinacan;275964 wrote:
Then as you smoothly pickup the throttle, you're putting weight through your outside peg and pulling your inside bar as you feed gas.
You can get really hard (but smooth) on the gas between T1 and T2.

At what point in the turn are you pulling on the inside bar? It sounds like after the apex but I'd like to know for sure. I am a long time (40+ years) street/dirt rider and I use countersteer (pushing on the inside bar) to get the bike to drop into the turn and continue to use it (gently) until I get on the throttle. I don't think I pull in on the inside bars so much as I stop pushing it coming out of the turn but could see how it would make the bike standup a little quicker.

I've only done one track day so I am in no way experienced in that realm. If I should get out of the habit of using countersteer I'd like to know (I think that will be harder than not using the rear brake). It never came up in any of the instructional sessions or CR talks.

Thanks,

Ron Madurski

 

[motorkas]

Dave561;276042 wrote: Now I'm curious. Post the pic

I was cracking up when it came in - first you jacked up my "plan" for the day - then you photobombed me in my first pic ever where my head wasn't 2 feet above the windscreen perfectly inline with the center of the bike. . .

 

[noobinacan]

rmadursk;276069 wrote: At what point in the turn are you pulling on the inside bar? It sounds like after the apex but I'd like to know for sure. I am a long time (40+ years) street/dirt rider and I use countersteer (pushing on the inside bar) to get the bike to drop into the turn and continue to use it (gently) until I get on the throttle. I don't think I pull in on the inside bars so much as I stop pushing it coming out of the turn but could see how it would make the bike standup a little quicker.

I've only done one track day so I am in no way experienced in that realm. If I should get out of the habit of using countersteer I'd like to know (I think that will be harder than not using the rear brake). It never came up in any of the instructional sessions or CR talks.

Thanks,

Ron Madurski

during corner exit, after the apex as you are feeding gas and driving out of the corner.
but, to be honest, I'm not doing that as much as 'weigh the outside' peg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cbQoW3rk2o

 

[JRA]

You can't steer the bike (initiate lean) without counter steering period. All of the other inputs are just "body english". Counter steering could also be pushing on the inside bar, or pulling on the outside bar, or both, and you are going to do that to initiate the turn at the point of turn-in, and you are going to go the other way to stand the bike up at or just after the apex. Bottom line is learning correct body position will make steering much easier and you won't event think about it after. It's been a long, long time since I've consciously thought about actual steering inputs.

 

[z064life]

noobinacan;276101 wrote: during corner exit, after the apex as you are feeding gas and driving out of the corner.
but, to be honest, I'm not doing that as much as 'weigh the outside' peg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cbQoW3rk2o

Weighing the peg won't steer a bike period. This has been proven many times. To straighten the bike you must stand it up using steering inputs. Even giving the bike throttle does not change the lean angle set.


Well John beat me to this one.

 

[Dave561]

motorkas;276079 wrote: I was cracking up when it came in - first you jacked up my "plan" for the day - then you photobombed me in my first pic ever where my head wasn't 2 feet above the windscreen perfectly inline with the center of the bike. . .

Hey, not my fault you missed the checkered flag. JK, fuel was lo so had to pit a little early. Had to pass the liter bike on my pesky little 6

 

[virtualsolitude]

I can relate to the OP here. And thanks to all for the nuggets of information provided above^.

This past May was my first track day (on an '09 R6 street bike) at Summit Point/Main. I felt things coming back but watching the CRs was (and is) still humbling.

I learned I was only 25% hanging off the seat (when I thought otherwise).

A CR railed down the inside of me and all the way through turn 5 with a hand on his friggin' hip (while I thought I was peaked out on entry speed).

I'm laughing as I write this, but I don't think I'm the slowest guy out there (in "B") even now. But it's time in the saddle and every bit of feedback (such as in this thread) is much appreciated. Kudos to the OP and everyone for chiming in on this thread.

As an aside, 10 years ago, when my youngest was born, I gave up my gixxer 750. I was in the "I" group and had my sights set on "A". Now I'm back and the weekends and track dates (that I can attend) aren't coming quickly enough for me.

 

[kubricky]

Couple things...

1. the "setup" for the turn is just as important as how you go through the turn. The way you brake as you approach and enter the turn affects the suspension which is in turn affected by throttle as it changes the physics of the motorcycle which can make it more difficult to turn, more difficult to hold a line, and more difficult to apply the throttle smoothly and affectively because you are fighting the physics to hold that line. The simple lesson here for the beginner is to be smooth as you apply the brakes entering the turn, smooth as you slowly release the brakes either before turn in or near the apex, and smooth as you pick up the throttle. The muscle memory at this stage is smooth. The next steps are maintaining the right speed to keep from coasting or being too fast where you might have to brake or pick up the throttle early or too much thus change the geometry of the bike and making it more difficult to maintain a line or turn-in (correct). Yes, this all comes from a pretty great lesson.

2. get a book - write this stuff down, try it, make more notes. Review your notes --- this will help you to:

3. Have a plan - keep it simple. Don't work on two turns or two things. Ride, enjoy it and pick one turn and one skill to focus on until you are at a stage where you can add many things to the mix. I see A riders, CRs, and accomplished racers think they can go out and work on "improving my laptime because I am screwing up turns x, x, x, x, and x, and my body position, throttle, braking, blah, blah, blah is bad...most of the time they come back VERY frustrated, sometimes with little plastic bits in their hands having gotten a ride on the pickup truck...first keep it fun and simple but more importantly, realize that technique is the key to being one of the "gods" like JRA, Ruhe, Peanut, Jiggy (heal up quick homie), Emmy, and even Sanders (kisses).

oh, and I'm coming back f'kers...

 

[motorkas]

Dave561;276139 wrote: Hey, not my fault you missed the checkered flag. JK, fuel was lo so had to pit a little early. Had to pass the liter bike on my pesky little 6

*cough* I thought I was so good that the CR was telling me to take a victory lap by myself *cough*. . .truth be told - was fully expecting a beat down for that one in the pits (and my first real clue that maybe I might suffer from "orangeshirtitis" and that I may have to seek some help:banghead:



And don't think for one second I buy your "low on gas" story. . .after meeting enough of the CR's, I'm convinced you guys secretly have a "photobombing" contest going on and you were just caught in the act of trying to "bunny ear" me which probably equated to some point scoring system you guys are going with to see who wins at the end of the season. . .

 

[CBRtist]

virtualsolitude;276141 wrote: As an aside, 10 years ago, when my youngest was born, I gave up my gixxer 750. I was in the "I" group and had my sights set on "A". Now I'm back and the weekends and track dates (that I can attend) aren't coming quickly enough for me.

:doh: I KNEW this is what other husbands did!!! See I was told that it's totally normal to celebrate birth of child by not only keeping track bike but purchasing another, to bring newborn to all TDs, put kid on own bike when they hit 2-3 years old, then when you get into "I" throw your wife on a track bike so you can trade off the kid. :notsure: I need to get out more. I think I was bamboozled.

Great, informative thread!

 

[Dave561]

CBRtist;276151 wrote: :doh: I KNEW this is what other husbands did!!! See I was told that it's totally normal to celebrate birth of child by not only keeping track bike but purchasing another, to bring newborn to all TDs, put kid on own bike when they hit 2-3 years old, then when you get into "I" throw your wife on a track bike so you can trade off the kid. :notsure: I need to get out more. I think I was bamboozled.

Great, informative thread!

That sounds right to me. Im confused where the bamboozled part comes into play :notsure:

 

[griffonrider]

CBRtist;276151 wrote: :doh: I KNEW this is what other husbands did!!! See I was told that it's totally normal to celebrate birth of child by not only keeping track bike but purchasing another, to bring newborn to all TDs, put kid on own bike when they hit 2-3 years old, then when you get into "I" throw your wife on a track bike so you can trade off the kid. :notsure: I need to get out more. I think I was bamboozled.

Great, informative thread!

This is just about the way I did it. I got the second bike by using the "safety and easier to learn on" line. Got bitched at for that so she got a scooter. I got my son in law into track days with a birthday present of a weekend at California Superbike School. My daughter understands how things are. (Daddy's little Princess) So, after I crash the brand new R6 at RA, I had to come up with a new strategy. So now she has a new toy hauler with a full kitchen and every other option imaginable. I doubt my better half will ever actually ride a motorcycle but she will be at all the events I am. I love it when a plan comes together.

 

[CBRtist]

Dave561;276155 wrote: That sounds right to me. Im confused where the bamboozled part comes into play :notsure:
Ah... it's a conspiracy :rtfm:

griffonrider;276165 wrote: I had to come up with a new strategy. So now she has a new toy hauler with a full kitchen and every other option imaginable.

:doh: Double bamboozle! We have a Fun Mover.

It will all be his own undoing. Now neither one of us can EVER be bumped :saythat: since we can't be in the same group, and a bump for him would mean an impossible kid trade off muahahahahahaha.

 

[noobinacan]

z064life;276110 wrote: Weighing the peg won't steer a bike period. This has been proven many times. To straighten the bike you must stand it up using steering inputs. Even giving the bike throttle does not change the lean angle set.


Well John beat me to this one.

uhh...yeah it does. are you only using upper body to transition the bike from left to right ?
peg's have as much to do with riding as bar input.

there's more to weighing the peg, its not just to stand the bike up...its so you're putting pressure on the outside of the tire as you're giving gas.

Maybe I'm struggling to explain feeling via words...
but
bottom line is, you must weight outside peg on exit....there's no two ways around it.