crash
- Thread starter borislav
- Start date
Geoff Doyer
New Member
We are riding motorcycles, pushing them to our own limits. We take all the necessary procautions possible, drill on saftey, etc. Unfortunately, shit DOES happen. This doesn't mean that we should accept people riding out of control or breaking the passing rules or riding like idiots. I didn't see this incident so my comments aren't specifically directed to the two individuals involved. What I will say is that when you strap on that helmet and decide to ride with other people then you also MUST accept that someone can make a bad decision that could END YOUR LIFE. It doesn't matter who was at fault here. The guy that wasn't hurt apologized to the rider that was and frankly it is the end of the story. If you can't accept the risk of contact with other riders then either rent the track out for just yourself or don't come out. It shouldn't happen but sometimes it does. NOBODY wants to crash other people and NOBODY does it on purpose. When it happens it sucks and I have never seen someone cause an incident that didn't feel like crap about it. I am willing to bet that neither of the two involved here are bad people or ignorant or madmen. It is an unfortunant incident.
Do you know how many times I have almost taken people out by my own mistakes? The only difference is that I have been LUCKY. Someday I will take somebody out and someday I will be taken out if I continue to do this. I accept it. If I take someone else out does that make me an asshole?
The intial post basically says hey I got taken out and I can't get an apology? And that I can totally understand. But it sounds like an apology attempt was made. Case closed.
Last thing: IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PASSING RIDER TO MAKE THE PASS CLEANLY. You can't expect the rider being passed on the outside to know that it is happening so it is only reasonable to expect that if you don't get it done by the apex that the rider inside is going to either run you off the track or clip your rear wheel. If you are passing on the outside and something happens, well, it's YOUR fault. There are no exceptions.
Do you know how many times I have almost taken people out by my own mistakes? The only difference is that I have been LUCKY. Someday I will take somebody out and someday I will be taken out if I continue to do this. I accept it. If I take someone else out does that make me an asshole?
The intial post basically says hey I got taken out and I can't get an apology? And that I can totally understand. But it sounds like an apology attempt was made. Case closed.
Last thing: IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PASSING RIDER TO MAKE THE PASS CLEANLY. You can't expect the rider being passed on the outside to know that it is happening so it is only reasonable to expect that if you don't get it done by the apex that the rider inside is going to either run you off the track or clip your rear wheel. If you are passing on the outside and something happens, well, it's YOUR fault. There are no exceptions.
Fly Guy 333
New Member
Man you said alot here and I agree with most. What I dont agree with is where you say the non injured rider apologized and so it should be case closed. He apologized only after the injured rider put up the post and the conversation started. My assertion was that the apology should have been made directly and immediately. An attempt is NOT the same as GETTING IT DONE.
I believe we all know the risk. We also know that SHIT HAPPENS. But that does not give riders the right to be reckless. This is why NESBA has all these in promp to meetings. To re explain that we have to be mindful of what we are doing. That we have to hold our lines. That the passing rider is responsible. That its not that critical to pass anyone. Thats why we have the BLACK flag. Thats why i saw CR's kicking people out for sessions. You make alot of assumptions about what riders do and dont do based on what you do. Why would you do that? It sounds politically correct but thats not reality.
I do fully agree with your last statement. It is the PASSING rider that bears the responsibility. I beleive you should have lead with that and left out all of the other stuff.
Had the passing rider just apologized for what he thought or didnt think happened most of this wouldnt have been necessary.
Geoff Doyer
New Member
Maybe you didn't read the part where he wanted to apologize but the guy was transported. He told the guys buddies he was sorry and where he was pitted. I don't think it is reasonable to expect more.
Fly Guy 333
New Member
Geoff,
I absolutely read the part about him giving the guys buddy a message. That was what I was referring to when I said ATTEMPTING to do something and DOING it are 2 seperate things.
Why would he tell the friend where he was pitted. Was that so the injured rider could come seek out the apology? Thats an interesting thought process dont you think.
My question to you and maybe we can find a better place to havce this discussion is as a Director and a fellow rider, why don't you think its reasonable to expect more than a message given to a friend?
Geoff Doyer
New Member
Because he can't jump on the ambulance
Fly Guy 333
New Member
OK I got you. So because he didnt feel like it was his fault either way his level of commitment to that Apology was just a formality because nthe CR told him he had a hand in the accident. Once the rider was out to the hospital that was it. In your mind he did his part. WOW.
How about if he got a phone number from the friend of the hurt rider and called the guy to say sorry? How about starting a post rather than replying to one to say sorry. in order to do any of what i just suggested you would have to give a damn. Clearly he didnt and as a Director and a rider you agree with that. Hey it takes all types. I suspect I'm just an "Old Timer" the way I think.
I appreciate the honest insight either way.
justariot66
New Member
Man this is fun! Too bad a guy got wrecked but geez you gotta love the drama.
To the guy who is the "plaintiff" did you stand the bike up or get startled? Or did he saw off your front wheel and cut into you.
To the CR who witnessed the crash did the "plaintiff" move at all as he was passed. Do you feel it is possible his reaction to the pass could have led to the crash? Would you say the pass around the outside was to close? Do you believe it should have been delayed till another corner or even the next straight?
Please the court if the plaintiff has pictures of the incident they should be admitted as evidence. Bring your best case to trial or get it adjourned to a later date.
dave #66
To the guy who is the "plaintiff" did you stand the bike up or get startled? Or did he saw off your front wheel and cut into you.
To the CR who witnessed the crash did the "plaintiff" move at all as he was passed. Do you feel it is possible his reaction to the pass could have led to the crash? Would you say the pass around the outside was to close? Do you believe it should have been delayed till another corner or even the next straight?
Please the court if the plaintiff has pictures of the incident they should be admitted as evidence. Bring your best case to trial or get it adjourned to a later date.
dave #66
Geoff Doyer
New Member
You miss the point. Most people would have done all of those things but you can't and shouldn't expect it.
Fly Guy 333
New Member
Geoff,
YOU are missing the point. Most would do exactly what this guy did "AS LITTLE AS POSIBLE", which amounts to doing nothing.
My contention is that as long as good people like you and alot of others that have posted here, feel that way then that will be the way it is. Especially given the fact that you are a Director. So that means that you implement that mentality into the NESBA organization as a matter of doing business.
And you have every right. I just appreciate the honesty so that the riders undersatnd what to expect from the leadership. Given the way you feel im suprised the CR actually went and found this guy at all. Hooray for that guy. Thinking outside the box.
Geoff Doyer
New Member
Tell me, what do you mean by "people like me?"
What is it that you want from NESBA, the riders, etc?
Should we have lawyers called in? Maybe we need to have judgements awarded for every on track incident?
In no way do I condone reckless riding, dangerous passes, etc. If you have ever sat in on any of my rider meetings or watched me handle situations at the racetrack you would understand that I always act with the saftey of our riders first and foremost.
What scares me most is the mentality that people need to be held accountable in some way for mistakes they make while participating in an extremely dangerous activity. Everyone knows and accepts the risks. When you start to dictate what happens after an incident then it only leads down a very slipperly slope that will eventurally lead to our favorite sport being prohibitively expensive and fraught with lawsuits.
People will make mistakes on the track and others will be hurt by those mistakes. While it is my job to educate riders and police the track to ensure that rules are being followed it is not my job nor anyone elses to decide how a member handles a situation after an incident. He can buy the guy a new home for all I care if he wants to but he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to.
You can all argue back and forth about what you feel is the morale obligations of the riders involved in this incident. I never said that I agree with the way it was handled and it's none of my business.
If you think I don't care about rider saftey then you are sorely mistaken
What is it that you want from NESBA, the riders, etc?
Should we have lawyers called in? Maybe we need to have judgements awarded for every on track incident?
In no way do I condone reckless riding, dangerous passes, etc. If you have ever sat in on any of my rider meetings or watched me handle situations at the racetrack you would understand that I always act with the saftey of our riders first and foremost.
What scares me most is the mentality that people need to be held accountable in some way for mistakes they make while participating in an extremely dangerous activity. Everyone knows and accepts the risks. When you start to dictate what happens after an incident then it only leads down a very slipperly slope that will eventurally lead to our favorite sport being prohibitively expensive and fraught with lawsuits.
People will make mistakes on the track and others will be hurt by those mistakes. While it is my job to educate riders and police the track to ensure that rules are being followed it is not my job nor anyone elses to decide how a member handles a situation after an incident. He can buy the guy a new home for all I care if he wants to but he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to.
You can all argue back and forth about what you feel is the morale obligations of the riders involved in this incident. I never said that I agree with the way it was handled and it's none of my business.
If you think I don't care about rider saftey then you are sorely mistaken
EngineNoO9
Member
geez... Last few days I've been at someone has gone down and inevitability friends of the guy that goes down is out to crucify someone for making a mistake and causing the person to go down and get hurt. It's a dangerous sport but I don't know anyone that wishes ill harm on anyone. If someone is being careless and isn't following the rules then I'm confident the CR's will take care of it. But unfortunately people do make mistakes which it appears some people have forgotten. Even the best riders in the world make mistakes. It'd be nice if someone apologizes for a mistake but I wouldn't expect it nor expect the person to have to pay for anything.
Geoff Doyer
New Member
:agree:
What he said. That's all I was trying to say
What he said. That's all I was trying to say
Fly Guy 333
New Member
People like you - Means people that feel that there is no accountability from one man to the next. That you canm make a mistake that causes another person harm and because we all signed a Liability Release Basic Human Decency goes out the window.
You bring up Lawyers and Paying for accidents. Where did that come from? Is that adding shock value to strengthen your point? I never mentioned any responsibility other than the deceny to Apologize. Lets not forget where this started between you and I. I was only suggesting that the rider that passed apologized.
I was supriesd at your statement that he need not do anything. And at first glance that suprised me. Then i started thinking back on my own incident where a NESBA Director ran me off the track. I went to the hospital and all and never got as much as a concerned "how are you" from that or any other NESBA organizer. They were very concerned with getting the tape from my on board camera. That they followed through with. They didnt try to get the chip they got the chip. Diffrent motivation I guess.
Now I know why he denied it was him when I introduced myself. His feeling as a Director of NESBA is in accord with yours. You have no responsibility to do anything. Even purse your lips to say "sorry that happened to you". Its too bad.
Fly Guy 333
New Member
I dont know what post you are refferring to. I am not out to crucify this guy for any mistake. I agree that its a high stakes game we play and things happen. No one here has forgotten that mistakes happen.
But plesae dont take what you would or wouldnt expect as the the rule for all of us. Just because you wouldnt expect it doesnt mean its not the right thing to do.
As a loan rider I'm less concerned about you. I am concerned when the organization Director has that asame ttitude.
sternsi
Control Rider
Please tell me you are not reffering to the issue at the Jc. I was there, saw the tape and saw something completely different then what you are trying to tell the general public that happened. If you want to come on here and talk about issues that happed on the track then please make sure you are putting the facts out for everyone to see that are TRUTHFUL. I am not gonna sit here and allow any bashing of a CR that was not caused by that said CR.
I was at that event, actually helped get you taken care, get your bike pulled out of the woods, so please dont come on here and bad mouth someone when that is not the actual facts.
I am also the one that wanted to see the footage of the event that happened, and from what I saw, and the staff, the event that happened is DEF not the way you are trying to make it out to be.
If you want to send me the video again, I will gladly look at it, but I can tell you that it was 100% not the CR's fault. Stuff happens at a very fast pace out there, and somethings that happen to you may not ACTUALLY BE WHAT happened.
I would also love to see the pics of the isse that started this whole thread. I find it interesting that someone would come on here, bash someone and not post something that can help solitify there case. If this was something that ment so much to me, I would post a set of pics for everyone to see to maybe help prevent this from ever happening to anyone else. People may look at the pics and say, I do that same thing, maybe next time I will rethink that style of pass.
I was at that event, actually helped get you taken care, get your bike pulled out of the woods, so please dont come on here and bad mouth someone when that is not the actual facts.
I am also the one that wanted to see the footage of the event that happened, and from what I saw, and the staff, the event that happened is DEF not the way you are trying to make it out to be.
If you want to send me the video again, I will gladly look at it, but I can tell you that it was 100% not the CR's fault. Stuff happens at a very fast pace out there, and somethings that happen to you may not ACTUALLY BE WHAT happened.
I would also love to see the pics of the isse that started this whole thread. I find it interesting that someone would come on here, bash someone and not post something that can help solitify there case. If this was something that ment so much to me, I would post a set of pics for everyone to see to maybe help prevent this from ever happening to anyone else. People may look at the pics and say, I do that same thing, maybe next time I will rethink that style of pass.
Fly Guy 333
New Member
Mark,
Evrything I wrote about your CR is 100% the case. It was his error that lead to my incident. You were no where near the incident as it happened on the track. But I would like to Thank you for helping get my bike out of the woods as I was loaded onto the helicopter.
Since you saw the tape why was it confiscated from my bike/friends? Is that the normal course of action when theres an incident on the track? If you had the chip why didnt you return it that day at the track? I had to make numerous calls to NESBA to get my chip back.
Why did your CR deny it was him that was in the area when I approached him 6 weeks later? Did that also not happen?
Why would I want to send you the chip again? I am fully under the understanding that accidents happen. I have no problem with that. I wasnt then nor am I now looking for anything from that CR or NESBA. But unless you were directly involved please reserve your comments about what you will and will not allow to yourself. That much I would appreciate.
This is an argument that will never end, it has been brought up in every form of motorsports from the beginning. The fact of the matter is that apologizing to another rider after an incident is a moral obligation, not a rule. It is not in the NESBA rule book that you need to apologize, nor is it in ANY other form of motorsports that I am aware of. From statements in this thread it appears that the other rider did try to apologize. End of story.
I think Geoff's posts were spot on. Geoff (and all NESBA directors) have been riding and racing motorcycles for a very long time. They bring a wealth of knowledge and understanding of the sport, the mentalities of the riders, and the things that can and will happen on a race track. Trust me, they have dealt with every kind of incident and personality type at a race track. Please try to actually read and understand the points that are being made when they post on a subject. You can choose to disagree with the points and explanations that were given, but I can assure you, they were spot on. Once you have been around this sport a bit longer you may come to see things in the same way as the people who have been doing it for most of their lives.
I think Geoff's posts were spot on. Geoff (and all NESBA directors) have been riding and racing motorcycles for a very long time. They bring a wealth of knowledge and understanding of the sport, the mentalities of the riders, and the things that can and will happen on a race track. Trust me, they have dealt with every kind of incident and personality type at a race track. Please try to actually read and understand the points that are being made when they post on a subject. You can choose to disagree with the points and explanations that were given, but I can assure you, they were spot on. Once you have been around this sport a bit longer you may come to see things in the same way as the people who have been doing it for most of their lives.
Fly Guy 333
New Member
R9935th;57252 said:
justariot66
New Member
If the guy crashed you out and found your friend and said he was sorry isnt that enough. If you were unavailable and he could not speak to you what more is there to do?
1800 FLOWERS maybe, but it might have been alittle gay.
If all you wanted was him to call you and say he was sorry your post crash attitude is going to make that an impossibilty.
I however, believe you wanted a "forum pound of flesh".
Its over, be glad your not more seriously injured and focus on getting better.
You are getting nowhere here, your lashing out and making yourself look bad.
Dave #66
1800 FLOWERS maybe, but it might have been alittle gay.
If all you wanted was him to call you and say he was sorry your post crash attitude is going to make that an impossibilty.
I however, believe you wanted a "forum pound of flesh".
Its over, be glad your not more seriously injured and focus on getting better.
You are getting nowhere here, your lashing out and making yourself look bad.
Dave #66