Help a brother rider out; ex-racer, new to track days & tired of abusing the street bike on the track (that plastic is expensive!), so I'm looking for a track bike. So many of the ads on our site say "no title" and many are followed by a tale of just WHY. Everything from "its a factory blank"(!?!), to "the guy with the title never got back to me", to, after the second owner, it just doesn't seem to be an issue any more. I would be hard pressed to find any papers on my own ex-racer but she is 20 years old and I'm talking 4-7 year old bikes. So, seeing as how I own two bikes in my locked garage that I would not want stolen, I ask: 1. just how important is the paper trail to you? 2. how many bikes in the tech line are not legit? and/or, 3. how can he be so naive', he should stop bringing us down and just buy the damn bike. Any opinions?
Every excuse in the book
- Thread starter JBGB3
- Start date
I guess I can answer all that with this: If your garage wasn't locked one day and one of those bikes wound up on a forum/site for sale would you be upset if these questions weren't asked and your bike was gone?
No idea how many bikes in the tech line are legal/illegal, but as an ex-racer you are WELL aware that the VIN number is required for your entry -- not sure where this information goes and I will not speculate. That said, I heard a rather detailed account from a well-respected member of the racing community which told of a racer who was given the steel bracelets by the local sheriff about 6 years ago. He was taken with his machine because (and this is the speculation part -- the leading from the paddock by a local sheriff is what many, many say to be the case) the VIN was noted as "stolen".
Based on that and the fact that while NESBA tech registration does not check and cross-check the VIN, the organization and its members take theft of matorcycles, parts, and accessories, falsifying information, and malicious intent very seriously.
And while some may suggest that is the "canned" answer, I think this is one of those areas where "best judgement" comes to mind.
No idea how many bikes in the tech line are legal/illegal, but as an ex-racer you are WELL aware that the VIN number is required for your entry -- not sure where this information goes and I will not speculate. That said, I heard a rather detailed account from a well-respected member of the racing community which told of a racer who was given the steel bracelets by the local sheriff about 6 years ago. He was taken with his machine because (and this is the speculation part -- the leading from the paddock by a local sheriff is what many, many say to be the case) the VIN was noted as "stolen".
Based on that and the fact that while NESBA tech registration does not check and cross-check the VIN, the organization and its members take theft of matorcycles, parts, and accessories, falsifying information, and malicious intent very seriously.
And while some may suggest that is the "canned" answer, I think this is one of those areas where "best judgement" comes to mind.
dbarufaldi
Member
I agree about getting the VIN, but do think there are situations where the title doesn't matter...BUT the only way to know is to search the VIN. Without that, you don't know if it's stolen, and that is the first thing to know before forking over money.
Case in point - guy has a streetbike and totals it. He buys it back from the insurance company, and gets a salvage title. He turns it into a track bike, and sells it after a season. The guy who buys it never signs the title, never pays the tax, then loses the title. He sells it with a bill of sale to another guy, who knows it will never be registered again, then sells it two years later. Some trackbikes change hands a lot, and once the title is salvage, if no one cares about registering it, the title becomes "nice to have" in some people's mind. This bike was never reported stolen, so I would consider purchasing it, depending on the paper trail and a VIN check. I suppose it's remotely possible whoever lost the title could at some point get a duplicate, and report the bike stolen...
blueninja1
New Member
I understand the uneasy feeling of buying a bike with no title. Luckily I do have a paper trail documenting the history of my bike. Everything from the original salvage title to receipts from previous owners of what has been done on the bike (repairs, etc.). I also have receipts of what I put into the bike. Everything is accounted for with the sale of this bike.
After the title was declared salvaged, the bike was sold and restored (properly documented by paperwork) by the second owner. I bought the bike from Dan who was the third owner of the bike. He's an honorable guy and probably the nicest guy I've met throughout my trackday experiences. I am the fourth owner and have been blessed to have owned such an amazing bike.
If I had the finances to continue pursuing this expensive hobby I would keep the bike but sometimes we have to give up something we love, at least for the time being.
-brendon
After the title was declared salvaged, the bike was sold and restored (properly documented by paperwork) by the second owner. I bought the bike from Dan who was the third owner of the bike. He's an honorable guy and probably the nicest guy I've met throughout my trackday experiences. I am the fourth owner and have been blessed to have owned such an amazing bike.
If I had the finances to continue pursuing this expensive hobby I would keep the bike but sometimes we have to give up something we love, at least for the time being.
-brendon
My track bike has a title, which is registered in my name. That is my preferred way to handle owning titled property. However, IF I were dealing with a known and trusted individual, AND I can verify that the VIN number is not listed as stolen in the US and in whatever country the bike was originally shipped to, then I MIGHT, if my gut instincts let me, buy a bike with bill of sale only.
Let's face facts. There are a lot of people out there who are either willing to "look the other way" or who are downright less than honest (i.e. crooks). It's my hope I never enrich these folks for their thievery. I have to use the tools available (chain of ownership, title, etc.) and my instincts to avoid aiding and abetting. In my opinion, there's no excuse for not taking care of the title paperwork when buying a bike. The title transfer fee, when compared to the price of the bike and the price of the aftermarket parts and consumables such as tires, is negligible.
Let's face facts. There are a lot of people out there who are either willing to "look the other way" or who are downright less than honest (i.e. crooks). It's my hope I never enrich these folks for their thievery. I have to use the tools available (chain of ownership, title, etc.) and my instincts to avoid aiding and abetting. In my opinion, there's no excuse for not taking care of the title paperwork when buying a bike. The title transfer fee, when compared to the price of the bike and the price of the aftermarket parts and consumables such as tires, is negligible.
dbarufaldi
Member
I agree about doing everything you can to ensure you're not buying a stolen bike, including walking away unless you can say with clear conscience, this bike is not stolen. Title is the easiest way to do that.
No excuse for processing the title paperwork? What if it was ~9% of the purchase price or book value, whichever was higher, plus $35...would that be a good reason to not take care of the title paperwork? In NYS, if you want to do the title transfer, you have to pay sales tax on the bike, even if you don't register it. And when you sell it, the next owner will have to pay that tax again, and the owner after that...you get the idea. On a $10,000 new bike that sells every two years, that's almost $2K of sales tax by the third owner, assuming steep depreciation. To me, that's at least worth thinking about...
Dan B
Well, staying legal has costs. What's the resale value depreciation of a bike with no title? On here, bikes with clear titles command a premium.
Here in IL, sales tax ona used bike is $25, and title transfer without registration costs a little over $100. And when I lived in NYC, it was common for Bills of Sale to substantially understate the sale price to minimize the sales tax. I'm guessing that hasn't changed in the 20 years since I left.
dbarufaldi
Member
NY got wise to understating the sale price, and can now charge you based on book value. If I could get away with $125 every time I bought a bike, I'd be a happy camper.
While staying legal does have costs, 1) there is, to my knowledge, no law barring the sale of an off-road use vehicle without a title. In my example, the vehicle is a total loss, so it's off-road only in that form, and 2) titles can accompany bikes, but aren't always transferred to the new owner. As a buyer, one might decide that paying the tax is not worth the loss-risk of being unable to demonstrate ownership (but still able to demonstrate the bike was sold by bill of sale). When it's time to sell, the person in whose name the title exists has signed the title over to a "buyer" but that buyer is not named.
This is really a unique conversation, as most of the universe doesn't really buy salvage vehicles to re-purpose. If we're talking street-legal vehicles, the above doesn't apply as widely.
dbarufaldi
Member
What are you talking about? Riding over the border? We're talking about salvage title bikes - off-road use only. If you mean paperwork for bikes on a trailer, you are not obliged to have any such paperwork.
Hotbrakes
New Member
So is it bad to buy a bike and never transfer the title to your name? I've done that with two, one that I still own.
I also have the MSO for another bike as it was never registered or technically titled. Is that where titles come from? And should I title that bike using the MSO?
I'm gonna need a loan just to pay the taxes! Not to mention the support team to provide basic necessities like food and water while waiting at DMV for 6 hours.
Concerning salvage title bikes- they can come from salvage yards with or without titles, keys, or anything. I lucked out with one that turned out to have a clean title even though it was smushed pretty bad, and they found the key a couple weeks later! Boo yeah! (After ordering a complete lockset of which I still posess)
I also have the MSO for another bike as it was never registered or technically titled. Is that where titles come from? And should I title that bike using the MSO?
I'm gonna need a loan just to pay the taxes! Not to mention the support team to provide basic necessities like food and water while waiting at DMV for 6 hours.
Concerning salvage title bikes- they can come from salvage yards with or without titles, keys, or anything. I lucked out with one that turned out to have a clean title even though it was smushed pretty bad, and they found the key a couple weeks later! Boo yeah! (After ordering a complete lockset of which I still posess)
BlueMax
Member
No not riding trailering. US Customs stopped me at the boarder going into Canada. They asked me for both my tow vehicle registration and bike registration. Customs knew it was a race bike, number plate, no lights & no plate. Customs told me they were looking for stolen bikes. Are you obligated to have paper worker? Don't know but it will make crossing the boarder easier/faster.
I learned that in Wisconsin it is illegal not to title a vehicle that was produced for on road use. Even if you never plate it, even if you purchased it for yard art, or a flower pot, or a race or off road vehicle, even if you just purchased the frame or cab or the VinPlate.
Now getting caught is about as likely as getting caught the first time you drive intoxicated. Not very likely, but it's gonna suck if you do. Best off to set your self up and not do it illegally in the first place. IMHO
Now getting caught is about as likely as getting caught the first time you drive intoxicated. Not very likely, but it's gonna suck if you do. Best off to set your self up and not do it illegally in the first place. IMHO
dlockhart5x
New Member
GP bikes AKA real race bikes no VINs
My 6R was built out of parts and has a replacement frame no VIN
WERA tech just has me write no vin- rep frame on the tech sheet
Knowing the seller or builder is important and in our small sport, not that hard to do.
My 6R was built out of parts and has a replacement frame no VIN
WERA tech just has me write no vin- rep frame on the tech sheet
Knowing the seller or builder is important and in our small sport, not that hard to do.