Fast Rider Question

lbsaxman

lbsaxman

Control Rider
Hey Super Fast Guys !!! how can you tell that on any given day you are taking a corner about as fast as possible . where is the limit ? is it when the tires start to slide or max lean angle ? or both .. I have watched some crash videos where it seemed that the rider just ran out of lean angle ... a good one from jennings where body position was a key but it seemed as if he just needed more lean to match the speed and had none ... or is it when you feel the bike starting to push ? what is usually first ? I have slid the front on turn 2 at Barber way leaned over and what i perceived as max speed for that corner . was that the limit or could i have made some changes and pushed more ? My elbow is pretty close to touching in turn 2 Barber , should I be trying to get that amount of angle/speed in every corner . is that the end goal ? Hope this makes sense ?
 
dpullen

dpullen

New Member
For me, it's a combination of speed and lean angle. Once my toe sliders touch, that's it for the lean angle. When I'm at pace, my toe sliders are down in pretty much every corner. I go through a lot of toe sliders (more than knee sliders, for sure).

After that, it's corner speed that generally pushes me wide. Once that starts happening, I know I'm at the limit of speed for that corner.

Tucking the front generally happens on brakes (or chopping the throttle). If you're on Dunlop 211s, you'd be hard pressed to push the front at max lean angle/max speed. However, on brakes going into the turn, you can feel them move a little.

Hope this helps...
 
bmart

bmart

Control Rider
I lose toe sliders at an alarming rate..."just like Dave does!"

Ok, nothing like how Dave does. Mine just disappear in the pits, or the car, or someplace other than the track. I actually just take them off now nad leave them at home.

Toe-draggin' showoffs...:adore:
 
lbsaxman

lbsaxman

Control Rider
ok cool thanks , so it sounds like your saying that lean angle and keeping your lines are the limits . so when i work on going faster on a specific turn i should be concerned with lean angle and holding my line instead of worrying about sliding the tires as much . im always thinking **it i hope these things will hold !!!! especially in fast turns like heading to the hogpen down the hill or heading down and up to 5 at rd atl but i have plenty of lean left and my lines are fine .
 
jimgl3

jimgl3

Member
get you some sparky toe sliders!
picture.php
 
gkotlin

gkotlin

New Member
Don't worry about how much lean angle your using. Worry about using as little lean angle as possible. Use body position to keep the bike upright. It's harder to crash with the bike straight up and down. As your pace starts to get quicker, you'll learn what areas of your riding needs attention next. Baby steps.
 
Matt H

Matt H

New Member
gkotlin;171934 wrote: Worry about using as little lean angle as possible. Use body position to keep the bike upright. It's harder to crash with the bike straight up and down.
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Very true. And while form can be subjective, and plenty of fast people have varying form, using body position to minimize lean angle is a good thing to do. Wish I could find the photo - it is Dane Westby and Josh Herrin going through a turn together. Even just the upper body being more upright on Dane shows how his bike has more lean angle than Josh's in the same turn.
 
Rydell

Rydell

New Member
I think "max lean" is albeit general, definitely not to be used when measuring max speed. There's max lean you want to be at for the given corner and a max lean the given bike is capable of. i.e. my 06 R6 when the peg drags, I know I'm at max lean angle irregardless of the track camber, temperature, or speed... you dont want to go any lower or pressure starts applying to the peg instead of the tires. But if a corner is off camber, you want less lean angle to help counter the loss of traction. Alot of factors here.

Good rule of thumb is you can only go as fast as your tires will allow. They are going to be the first to tell you you're going as fast as possible.

Traction is God.

Just my 2 cents.
 
madriders86

madriders86

New Member
Rydell;172019 wrote:

Good rule of thumb is you can only go as fast as your tires will allow. They are going to be the first to tell you you're going as fast as possible.

Traction is God.
Click to expand...
Doesn't how fast you are able to go depends more on the rider? Any time you are finding "the limit" on a particular corner there's is probably some adjustment you can make with your technique as a rider to be able to go faster. There's only a small number of riders in the world who are doing everything right enough that they truly are getting the most of their tires and their machine, and those guys are racing in motogp and wsbk...or CR'ing with nesba :cool:

I don't think tires are ever the limiting factor for most us mere mortals.
 
Rydell

Rydell

New Member
madriders86;172066 wrote: Doesn't how fast you are able to go depends more on the rider? Any time you are finding "the limit" on a particular corner there's is probably some adjustment you can make with your technique as a rider to be able to go faster. There's only a small number of riders in the world who are doing everything right enough that they truly are getting the most of their tires and their machine, and those guys are racing in motogp and wsbk...or CR'ing with nesba :cool:

I don't think tires are ever the limiting factor for most us mere mortals.
Click to expand...

No matter how fast or how slow you are, there is always 1 common factor that limits everyone. Traction. What's preventing Valentino Rossi from going 20mph faster around that hairpin turn? Not his motor. His motor can pull him through at faster speeds if his tires would hold. This isn't the fast and the furious, his frame certainly isn't about to fall apart from the "mad lean anglez and cornerspeed".

That 1 common factor is what also limits a less experienced rider to his abilities. It's that traction that tells you, you are going your max speed for the tires and technique you are using. If he starts sliding, he knows he's at his maximum grip level for whatever he's doing. You cannot go any faster. Either get better technique or get better tires.

If you are using a bad technique, you will have less traction for your current speed. If you are using good technique, you will be able to utilize those tires better, potentially exploiting its' full potential.

Unless the bike is literally on rails, no matter where you are, traction is God. And it will always tell you how fast you can go.
 
Meat

Meat

Member
madriders86;172066 wrote:
I don't think tires are ever the limiting factor for most us mere mortals.
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:agree: You can watch brand new rider to the track low side in a turn and they aren't going very fast for that turn.

You can always use more traction but skill allows you to better utilize the traction level that you have. Opie Caylor riding a bone stock Yamaha at Rd Atl on stock street tires turning low 1:30's is a nice example of skill being a key factor in corner speed and lap times.

Another issue to overall corner speed (or time in one corner) is when you go fast and when you go slow in that turn and for how long you do each of these.
 
stow

stow

New Member
Meat;172573 wrote: Opie Caylor riding a bone stock Yamaha at Rd Atl on stock street tires turning low 1:30's is a nice example of skill being a key factor in corner speed and lap times.
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Bone stock Suzuki. Can't remember if it was a 750 or 1000. Either way it was very impressive.
 
Rydell

Rydell

New Member
:cool:
madriders86;172574 wrote: pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFW9MFw4OPA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GHDnhb6zok&NR=1&feature=fvwp
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So you think you go faster by sliding? :poorguy:

Sliding is a technique. You do it a little in a corner because it tells you you're right over the limits of the tire. Do it just enough going into a corner and you can maintain max stopping power, because your know you're just over the limit. Exiting is same concept: you accelerate hard enough to a point of where you're just losing traction, again, because you know you're at the limits of grip.

I might be exposing some trade secrets here, but you don't get a secret boost from sliding the tire. It's somewhat of a novelty skill, and generally racers with dirt experience exhibit this more because of their history of sliding dirt-bikes.

I grew up racing in dirt, I can slide the bike going in and coming out of a corner, but that doesn't mean I'm faster. It's a happy medium for me because I know I'm at the limits of grip with my tires; I know how far I can push it before I start losing grip and corner speed.

:cool: Make sense?
 
lbsaxman

lbsaxman

Control Rider
OK so trying to go as fast as possible in every corner means going in until the tires start sliding in every corner , thats the limit ...Man i have a long way to go !!! what usually slides first front or rear ? so what about long sweepers like heading to the hogpen and heading to 5 at Rd Atlanta throttle till you slide the bike ? Shit Thats Scary To Think About
 
Rydell

Rydell

New Member
lbsaxman;172617 wrote: OK so trying to go as fast as possible in every corner means going in until the tires start sliding in every corner , thats the limit ...Man i have a long way to go !!! what usually slides first front or rear ? so what about long sweepers like heading to the hogpen and heading to 5 at Rd Atlanta throttle till you slide the bike ? Shit Thats Scary To Think About
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You really want to hone your technique before you start worrying about reaching your tires limit and sliding. Your tires will out perform your skill level for a long time. The simple answer to your orginal question is just losing traction. Once you do that, you can't go any faster. is this a good idea? No. Especially not when you first start riding the bike.

I'd work on your technique, going slow around corners, braking, lines, leaning, etc... work on one thing at a time. Then worry about pushing the limits of your tires.
 
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