How to win an argument for track days when your wife says NO.

[Mike:p]

So I really love going to the track to ride my bike. Everyone here knows how track riding feels. O so good!

Sunday night I began to tell my wife, who has always supported me in whatever I decide to do, about what days I was planning to ride this year. She was not thrilled to say the least. Her argument was that track riding is dangerous. My argument was that street riding is MORE dangerous than the track. I know it's not the safest thing but you all understand what I am saying. It was late so we went to bed.

Monday morning came and it was nice enough to ride to school, but I didn't have enough time to put on all my gear. So I drove my truck. While I was sitting at a red light I got rear ended by some guy in a full size suv. While sitting in the ER my wife came in knowing full well that I almost took the bike that morning. She came over to me with tears in her eyes and said "You can ride on a track anytime you want to". She realized how dangerous the real world is when you are on a bike.

I'm not looking for any sympathy. Everyone was okay. I just couldn't believe what happened. Just thought I would throw it out there.

On the lighter side getting hit was way easier than discussing track days with my wife because she had made up her mind. Now I know what to do to win an argument.

 

[Otto Man]

Thanks for sharing your story and glad you are ok. I've been rear ended and had someone pull out in front of me on the street while riding my bike. I will always say riding on the track is safer. Why?

- we are all traveling the same direction
- no intersections
- nobody texting on their phones while driving
- ambulance is literally on stand by
- ample run off
- higher gear requirements

There's an awesome video on YouTube that photoshopped various things you could crash into on the street and over laid it onto motogp clips. So instead of the rider just sliding/tumbling, it shows them sliding into the photoshopped bus, car, curb, etc. It really drives the point home.

Don't even get me started on the states with no helmet laws...

 

[HondaGalToo]

Glad you're ok and by fate didn't have the bike that day. I still ride street. Otto Man makes good points. The track might, MIGHT be just a bit safer than the street, but it's still a risky sport. But yeah, incredible amounts of fun!!!

 

[slowohioboy]

Glad to hear that you weren't too badly injured in the crash.

As pointed out above riding a motorcycle, on the street or on a racetrack has a good chance that at some point you may be injured. It is just reality that someday you will fall down, ride long enough and it will happen (several times for some of us)......
Otto Man pointed it out above you will be dressed for a fall on a track. On the street you will not (maybe partially, but I don't think I ever knew anyone that did, every time). Also when you do fall, it won't be because you were hit by a car, and you will in almost all instances slide into grass with enough room to slow down. It won't be into curbs built for draining water, cars, or into a drainage ditch to be found days later....... You also won't be riding with people texting, drinking, playing with the stereo, or just plain distracted by everything else.

I had 8 years away from bikes and just returned to riding last summer. One of the requirements by my family was that I would not ride on the street, only on the racetrack (which is fine by me, as that is really what I enjoy about riding not putting to here or there).

 

[Mike:p]

Thanks for sharing your story and glad you are ok. I've been rear ended and had someone pull out in front of me on the street while riding my bike. I will always say riding on the track is safer. Why?

- we are all traveling the same direction
- no intersections
- nobody texting on their phones while driving
- ambulance is literally on stand by
- ample run off
- higher gear requirements

There's an awesome video on YouTube that photoshopped various things you could crash into on the street and over laid it onto motogp clips. So instead of the rider just sliding/tumbling, it shows them sliding into the photoshopped bus, car, curb, etc. It really drives the point home.

Don't even get me started on the states with no helmet laws...

Do you know the title of the video. I want to see it but I don't want to watch hours of useless crash videos.

 

[slowohioboy]

This should be it. It is called "mick Doohan, no place to race". Or at least it is similar to what was mentioned.

 

[Mike:p]

This should be it. It is called "mick Doohan, no place to race". Or at least it is similar to what was mentioned.

Thanks. That is a great video. Short and makes an excellent point.

 

[D-Zum]

Arguing with your wife about track riding versus street riding is kind of like trying to argue nuclear fusion versus fission with Joe Flacco.
Unless she rides, she's not going to understand unfortunately. All the technical and safety points mentioned above are all valid. Maybe explain to her
it's like when you place a child in a play pen...the race track is your play pen.

Ask her if she trusts you, and trusts your judgement.

Mention it's not just about the riding, it's the people you meet and ride with that you enjoy.

 

[Mike:p]

Arguing with your wife about track riding versus street riding is kind of like trying to argue nuclear fusion versus fission with Joe Flacco.
Unless she rides, she's not going to understand unfortunately. All the technical and safety points mentioned above are all valid. Maybe explain to her
it's like when you place a child in a play pen...the race track is your play pen.

Ask her if she trusts you, and trusts your judgement.

Mention it's not just about the riding, it's the people you meet and ride with that you enjoy.

Yeah that was all part of my argument. And when I say argument I don't mean yelling. We are very good at discussing things. She has just became a little overly cautious now that we have a 1 year old. She rides too or she did before she was pregnant. Anyone want to buy an 85 Shadow in great shape. She thought my first track day was also going to be my last. To be honest so did I until...... Well you guys know the rest. Once you get on the track you don't go back.

 

[D-Zum]

Well, you may want to consider a toy hauler in the budget in the near future. The 1 year old is going to be 2, then 3, etc...and trust me..they WANT to go to the track with Dad. Mine's my official Crew Chief. Every winter a couple times he asks me when we are going racing again. He misses it. And he misses all his friends.

It will become a family thing you all do.

Welcome to our world.

 

[CBRtist]

When I was under the N2 tent last Sunday, this was a one concern I addressed with people. There ARE risks in both environments, but I think the measure of things we can control are in higher numbers at the track. One gentleman brought up a (valid) concern that he didn't want to throw his street bike on the track and crash it. I pointed out that he is less likely to crash his bike on the track (especially in intro/novice) *if* he listens to instruction *and* rides it appropriately. If he's just looking to pin it, it will probably end up in a box. On the street, you don't have CRs letting you know what it coming up ahead or weaving in and out of traffic trying to regulate things.

Of course I did have the occasional college kid who said he wasn't interested in track because he was "tearing it up on the streets". Yes that is a direct quote . Those ones made for some amusement with a friend of mine. Especially one that circled back (because I wasn't impressed with his street credz) and was looking at Lenny's tires attempting to make a comparison to his own tires ("Are those Diablos? I have Diablos and work them too." Hmmm... pictures please? ).

In 4 years, I have had 3 crashes (all novice). One crash I blacked out. Another fractured fingers (but still rode rest of day). Relatively mild in comparison to what I've seen on street.

Now when you start entering upper ranks is when the risk increases (naturally). The faster you go, the harder you fall, and then people are faced with a whole other set of choices. But I still know quite a few people who are alive and well despite riding in those ranks.

Great video John! I'll be sharing!

 

[Mike:p]

Well, you may want to consider a toy hauler in the budget in the near future. The 1 year old is going to be 2, then 3, etc...and trust me..they WANT to go to the track with Dad. Mine's my official Crew Chief. Every winter a couple times he asks me when we are going racing again. He misses it. And he misses all his friends.

It will become a family thing you all do.

Welcome to our world.

I have been looking for a V nose cargo trailer. Tell me what you think about these. Trailer #1 6x12 single axle ramp and side door plus a spare tire. The owner said he will take $2000 for it when he is done with it later this year in about April. He bought it new last year to move from FL to TN. He has been moving his stuff one load a month for the past 8 months. Trailer #2 6x10 ramp and side door single axle with a couple of dents in the front, $1800. Trailer #3 7x16 fiberglass tandem axle side and ramp door. Owner says it only weighs 1300lbs. It was once setup for sleeping and hauling bikes now it's just used as storage for the past year. Owner said he would take $2300. My current tow vehicle is a 2015 Tacoma.

 

[Motofun352]

Now when you start entering upper ranks is when the risk increases (naturally). The faster you go, the harder you fall, and then people are faced with a whole other set of choices. But I still know quite a few people who are alive and well despite riding in those ranks.

Don't want to start an argument...but...I believe Risk=speed/skill x environment control. In other words RISK goes up with increased speed and down with increased skill and increased control of the environment. That's why there are more crashes as people learn whether on the street or track. In the advance group, even though the speed is up..so is the skill and "environment" so the risk actually goes down. Of course everyone has their opinion, usually earned the hard way, so there's no right answer to this.

 

[Otto Man]

Don't want to start an argument...but...I believe Risk=speed/skill x environment control. In other words RISK goes up with increased speed and down with increased skill and increased control of the environment. That's why there are more crashes as people learn whether on the street or track. In the advance group, even though the speed is up..so is the skill and "environment" so the risk actually goes down. Of course everyone has their opinion, usually earned the hard way, so there's no right answer to this.

I wasn't going to be the first, but since you pitched in first... I agree. I think the proof of this is at the track days themselves, where it's more common to see a Novice/Intermediate rider crash versus an Advanced group rider.I understand that proportionally speaking, there should be more N/I crashes as there are many more riders, therefore the probability goes up based off numbers alone. But going off personal experience - the faster I've gotten, the less I've crashed.

 

[Mike:p]

Don't want to start an argument...but...I believe Risk=speed/skill x environment control. In other words RISK goes up with increased speed and down with increased skill and increased control of the environment. That's why there are more crashes as people learn whether on the street or track. In the advance group, even though the speed is up..so is the skill and "environment" so the risk actually goes down. Of course everyone has their opinion, usually earned the hard way, so there's no right answer to this.

I totally agree. Several of you know that I'm a rider coach for MSF and we discuss "risk offset" in class. Simply put if you take a lot of risk but don't have a lot of skill you have a negative risk offset. If you don't take a lot of risk and have a lot of skill you have a positive risk offset. If you increase your skills but increase your risk you have not changed your risk offset. You only learn from the risks you do take. What I have seen specifically at N2 events is this. Yes people are taking risks but the skill level of these people is increasing faster than their risk taking. So even though they are going faster they are getting safer because of their increased skill. This goes for everyone I have met from intro to the CRs, it's a mental decision that they have chosen to make. That's why this is the group I choose to ride with!!

 

[HondaGalToo]

Yeah, but the crashes that do occur in Advanced are at higher speed and can be therefore be more dramatic.
Let's not kid ourselves. It's a fantastic sport, but it's not without risks on either the track or the street.
Higher speed crashes, even if they occur less often, can cause greater injury. Maybe. Too many factors to really generalize.
Also keep in mind that others make mistakes that can impact you, even if you are riding within your limits. Less than on the street? Probably. But I don't fully buy into the argument that the track is safer than the street. In some aspects, yes. In others, not so much.

 

[CBRtist]

No argument here. I agree with the speed/skill mindset also.

Just pointing out that the crashes, when they do happen in more advanced groups, have higher stakes and consequences IMO.

Keep in mind I'm talking to low hanging fruit and people *considering* track as a hobby. I want to address their trepidation as best I can, without blowing smoke up their ass.

+1 on Judy's comment.

 

[Otto Man]

Yeah, but the crashes that do occur in Advanced are at higher speed and can be therefore be more dramatic.
Let's not kid ourselves. It's a fantastic sport, but it's not without risks on either the track or the street.
Higher speed crashes, even if they occur less often, can cause greater injury. Maybe. Too many factors to really generalize.
Also keep in mind that others make mistakes that can impact you, even if you are riding within your limits. Less than on the street? Probably. But I don't fully buy into the argument that the track is safer than the street. In some aspects, yes. In others, not so much.

Following the logic of more speed being more dramatic, that would mean every crash in WSBK/ MotoGP would be crippling riders. Speed isn't always the main factor. Who was that one guy that cracked his ribs on a scooter in the pits again? LOL! Sorry Len!

I think the difference of Judy/Wendy's and my mindset is this: The demographic of the rider. They are talking about women, who in general, don't let their ego get to their head - not the case for your average younger male rider. Your typical male rider WILL speed, and WILL carve the canyons as fast as he dares. In Judy's case, I'd totally agree with her - she may be safer on the street. But she's also smart and doesn't ride like she's trying to set a lap record on the street either...

So if you're going to have this rider ride his bike as fast as he can - which area is safer? The street, or track? Another huge reason I believe the track is safer - you have far less things out of your control on the track. On the street, you have no control of the car waiting on the side street - are they going to pull out in front of you? Is oncoming traffic going to stay in their lane? You never know this, and will never have control over things like that. Granted, there are some variables on the track you cannot control (mainly, other riders). But the track is a far more controlled environment than the street will ever be.

Regardless, this is a good topic and is helping to pass the off season time till Spring!

 

[HondaGalToo]

You make good points, too, John. Many variables and definitely agree that gender/age/wisdom play a role. With your example of the young male canyon-carver, I agree that the track is a much better environment.
I would also opine that the tracks motogp runs, in general, have better runoff than many of the tracks we ride.
Also, the skills learned in the relatively controlled environment of the track will make you a safer rider, both on the track and the street. I'm a huge proponent for training.

 

[CBRtist]

Yup. Too many variables on any given day to make a proper comparison.

Would be interesting if somebody somewhere ended up getting actual statistics across a variety of situations... Especially severity of injuries and mortality rates.

But no one has that much time on their hands lol.