I'm going to try trailbraking....

[ckw373]

So, I've read a bunch of posts about trailbraking and how beneficial it can be to your riding. I am 100% convinced that I need to learn it and I am going to try it at my next event.

Out of all of the posts I read, I didn't encounter anyone who sort of walked through their process. Basically, what I got out of most of the posts was that you need to be going fast enough to see the benefits and obviously, decrease braking power as lean angle is increased.

So, I have found that I learn best when I attack something new with a specific plan. That way, I can make specific adjustments to my technique.

So, as a new trailbraker and someone who was doing ALL of the braking while straight up and down, what I am looking for is something like this: should I be trying to do 60% of my braking while straight up and down, then trailing off to no braking right at the apex, or should I trail off faster initially (to give myself more margin for error at the apex where I am at maximum lean angle)?

I am just trying to get a feel for how much braking I should be doing and when as a beginner to the technique. I saw a nice chart once that showed about 50% of the braking being done while straight up and down, trailing to 0% right at the apex. I assume that I should give myself at least some margin for error the first time I try this.

Another question I have is regarding long corners, such as turn 3 and turn 5 at Blackhawk (my next event) where you carry a lot of lean angle for a while. The technique is easier for me to visualize for touch and go corners. So, should I trailbrake until I am at maximum lean angle, then go to maintenance throttle?

Thanks for the advice in advance!

-Chris

 

[BigKid]

I love trail braking. I was fortunate enough to attend FastFreddieSpencer school to learn this technique. We were shown MANY drills to work on the technique. The beauty of all the drills is they can be performed in a parking lot. The negative of self teaching yourself how to trail brake at the track is it is a fairly advanced technique that when performed without proper instruction will either A. have a very steep learning curve or B result in many off track excursions. Do lots of reading and if possible find a CR that knows of the drills or another freddie spencer school graduate. The drills we practiced are all very easy to do in a parking lot and can be carried on to the street, the track and even in your car. Nick Ienatsch (I know, SP?) freddie spencers chief instructor, now teaches the yamaha school of champions. If you have the chance to go to his school it will take 2-5 years off the learning curve for trail braking. Trust me, it was the finest learning experience of my life.

 

[Andrei]

Hey Chris,

You've asked a million dollar question right here. on 600 , trailing braking and corner speed are the name of the game. How well you feel the limit of the bike at that stage defines your laptime.

First of all, trailbraking is not a deal breaker in laptimes unless you are running well into A pace. Cornerspeed is. I'd focus on making sure you are good there. A good indicator of satisfactory cornerspeed is that you find yourself dragging your elbows, hard parts of the bike or in general your bike feels 'very' light and unstabable while leaned over. That's probably the point you should stop pushing your max lean angle and start focusing on compressing corner entry time. There is really no end to perfecting the latter.

Second, there is no 60%, 50% or etc. How much to brake is entirely up to your feel of the bike and sequence of your actions in response to reference points on the track. So, I would not worry how much braking force is to be applied . I'd rather focus on picking up visual references and try to use the bike braking power gradually deeeper and harder into the corner while maintaining mental control.

 

[alocker]

Ron Hix gave me a quick intro on trailbraking a few years back.

You want to start by barely dragging the brakes. Essentially you will not be slowing the bike, you will only prevent the forks from extending like they would by fully letting go of the brakes.

That tip alone made it much easier to hit the apex tighter and more consistently.

After that, its learning the limit of traction while braking and leaning over. I have not progressed far enough to find that limit.

 

[noobinacan]

a 19x18 and right pads help...IMO.
last year I've only been sorta practicing it by applying very small pressure to make minor adjustments on entry into turns I feel comfortable at...
- barber turn two entry
- VIR turn 2 and so on

For the above reason, I'm running SBS dual carbons (very progressive pad and recommended by some of the racers here) vs Vesrah...cause vesrah have high initial bite and hence will make things that much harder and require a finer touch.

vs the drill of hard braking for a corner and then trailing off the brakes as lean increases...and hitting your apex at the perfect speed...before picking up throttle. Now that's something hard to master and needs practice...

This year, plan's to work on this technique on turns that are slower...vs turns that are faster

Andrei;177691 wrote: Hey Chris,

First of all, trailbraking is not a deal breaker in laptimes unless you are running well into A pace. Cornerspeed is. I'd focus on making sure you are good there. A good indicator of satisfactory cornerspeed is that you find yourself dragging your elbows, hard parts of the bike or in general your bike feels 'very' light and unstabable while leaned over. That's probably the point you should stop pushing your max lean angle and start focusing on compressing corner entry time. There is really no end to perfecting the latter.
.

Sorry I think you're wrong here...wrong wrong wrong!
Though corner speed is good to have..its not name of the game.
How early you pickup your throttle and how well you trail brake. and getting good run into fast sections is name of the game. Fast in Fast...

Also, If your tall and drag elbows naturally...all well and good.
But a lot of people who are very fast don't even get close to dragging elbows..
elbow dragging has nothing to do with corner speed.

and also this leaned over, light and unstable...bit. you're killing me dude!

 

[Matt H]

alocker;177695 wrote: Ron Hix gave me a quick intro on trailbraking a few years back.

You want to start by barely dragging the brakes. Essentially you will not be slowing the bike, you will only prevent the forks from extending like they would by fully letting go of the brakes.

That tip alone made it much easier to hit the apex tighter and more consistently.

After that, its learning the limit of traction while braking and leaning over. I have not progressed far enough to find that limit.

^^ This. Think of trying to barely drag the brake on through the corner - not actually "braking" or slowing the bike down through the corner. That's the first step to starting it and not putting the bike on the ground. To get an idea of the sort of brake pressure being talked about, have someone pull your bike in the paddock starting from a stop with the brake fully applied. And keep letting the brake lever out slowly. You'll see that VERY light pressure will still have the brakes dragging, but barely doing anything to slow the bike.

 

[bmart]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'd love to see NESBA run all sorts of drills in a coned space in the paddock. There is so much to learn that could be better learned before going on the track. Braking drills would be a good place to start... anyone?

 

[noobinacan]

bmart;177753 wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'd love to see NESBA run all sorts of drills in a coned space in the paddock. There is so much to learn that could be better learned before going on the track. Braking drills would be a good place to start... anyone?

I'm in

 

[avizpls]

bmart;177753 wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'd love to see NESBA run all sorts of drills in a coned space in the paddock. There is so much to learn that could be better learned before going on the track. Braking drills would be a good place to start... anyone?

BeaveRun would be a GREAT place to do this. They have the VDA that is often open.

 

[beac83]

I listened to Ron's discussion on trailbraking at Putnam last spring.

Actually tried it at Barber in Nov, and immediately saw how it gives you a lot more control. Going into T4 at Barber it made it possible to get in there nice and tight with a lot of control over exact entry speed. Combined with some light throttle adjustments, you can pinpoint your line.

I also started using it into T1 when I got things going better. Definitely a technique I still need to work a lot on, but very beneficial.

Start out VERY gentle on the lever (as Matt H describes above), and as you start to get the feel of it, you will make progress.

I'm going through Nick's book now in preparation for the coming season. he gives a lot of attention to trailbraking.

 

[tittys04]

noobinacan;177702 wrote: and also this leaned over, light and unstable...bit. you're killing me dude!

"Loose is fast and on the edge of out of control!!"

:rtfm:

 

[Dylan Code]

Trail braking migrated to motorcycle terminology from cars and ONE way of looking at it is understanding what they are trying to do: keep the tires at or near maximum load throughout the entire turn. On corner entry, one is braking heavily prior to turning it in. Then when turning in, you start introducing a side load on the tire in addition to the braking force load. So as side load increases, braking force must decrease. In many turns the slowest part is at or near the apex so one would be decelerating to that point, especially in a decreasing radius turn.

This requires finesse at extreme tire loads but when practiced at a slower-than-normal pace it's easy to get the feel.

There are other factors with regard to the attitude and geometry of the bike that are affected, making the bike more responsive. But on brakes or off brakes, any properly set up modern sportbike will turn for you easily enough, though they ARE more or less responsive based on setup and brake/throttle usage.