Need help settling a debate with my brother.

[motorkas]

Since a certain Director has capped my word count on this site, I'll keep it brief (for me anyways).

I've been trying to no avail to convince my brother that he's at the point of upgrading his suspension (as well as rear-sets for GP shift. Was reviewing video from our last day at T-bolt (yes, withdrawl is a bitch) when I was behind my brother and I noticed that going into the long right hander, sparks are coming out from him touching hard parts (his bike is in my garage and it's the exhaust that's touching down). Also, his front zip tie is buried at the bottom of his forks. He's almost convinced but he wanted it thrown out to you guys (and gals) to see if you think it's the stock suspension and that going to Ohlins front and rear (and set up of course) will stop the hard parts from touching. I personally think he has good body position (always room for improvement!!) and that's not the cause.

Some info:

He's 6' 195lbs
It's the second session of the day and we were running 1:41's - 1:43's - with a little bit of open track, he's consistently cut low 1:37's in light traffic trying to keep up with the Mid -Atlantic CR crew (also know as "sadists on steriods").
He's a "late braker" and has told me one of his goals for next year to "brake even later and deeper"
Bike was set up at the track by Markbilt when he was in "B group" - perfect wear on both the front and the rear.
2011 BMW S1000rr (completely stock).

Here's the video - at 1:30 he's going into the turn and sparks come out a couple of seconds latter - included a couple of laps to see if you see anything body position wise. It's only in this turn that he's touching but reviewing other video from other sessions, it's pretty consistent (and I think even one turn is too many - I have to deal with our parents at the end of the day.

Any and all input, advice, suggestions welcome.

Thanks in advance!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydy9CI71rOE

 

[Otto Man]

He doesn't need Ohlins. He needs the correct suspension set up/ spring rate for his body weight and riding pace.

I would take a professionally set up stock suspension set up over an off the shelf Ohlins set up any day of the week.

 

[D-Swens]

Otto Man;294591 wrote: He doesn't need Ohlins. He needs the correct suspension set up/ spring rate for his body weight and riding pace.

I would take a professionally set up stock suspension set up over an off the shelf Ohlins set up any day of the week.

I'm not sure what "off the shelf" Ohlins set-up refers too. Assuming you are buying new, most reputable shops that will sell you a new Ohlins cartridge kit for you forks, will install it with the appropriate spring rate, and will also help you dial it in for your bike/ridding.

Therefore, what would have for comparison is a professionally set-up Ohlins suspension vs a professionally set-up stock suspension. While it is amazing the difference that professional set-up can make on the OEM stuff, a professional Ohlins set-up is a much better package. It won't make YOU more capable, but it will make the bike more capable.

 

[andykurz]

With the forks bottoming out, something needs to change! May just be setup.

With the amount of riding you guys did this year, you would be well served by a suspension refresh anyway, so I would talk with your tuner / suspension guru to see what they recommend.

 

[z064life]

Otto Man;294591 wrote: He doesn't need Ohlins. He needs the correct suspension set up/ spring rate for his body weight and riding pace.

I would take a professionally set up stock suspension set up over an off the shelf Ohlins set up any day of the week.

This...ohlins won't do anything for him if it isn't sprung correctly. I highly doubt the stock suspension is sprung for his weight.

 

[z064life]

D-Swens;294592 wrote: I'm not sure what "off the shelf" Ohlins set-up refers too. Assuming you are buying new, most reputable shops that will sell you a new Ohlins cartridge kit for you forks, will install it with the appropriate spring rate, and will also help you dial it in for your bike/ridding.

Therefore, what would have for comparison is a professionally set-up Ohlins suspension vs a professionally set-up stock suspension. While it is amazing the difference that professional set-up can make on the OEM stuff, a professional Ohlins set-up is a much better package. It won't make YOU more capable, but it will make the bike more capable.

True...but if it is just that he is bottoming out, having the stock suspension just resprung will fix that. Cartridge kit is next in line for improvement, followed by full Ohlins forks.

 

[Otto Man]

D-Swens;294592 wrote: I'm not sure what "off the shelf" Ohlins set-up refers too. Assuming you are buying new, most reputable shops that will sell you a new Ohlins cartridge kit for you forks, will install it with the appropriate spring rate, and will also help you dial it in for your bike/ridding.

Therefore, what would have for comparison is a professionally set-up Ohlins suspension vs a professionally set-up stock suspension. While it is amazing the difference that professional set-up can make on the OEM stuff, a professional Ohlins set-up is a much better package. It won't make YOU more capable, but it will make the bike more capable.

I meant "off the shelf" as in buying the Ohlins and it's not set up for the individual in any way shape or form.

 

[Dave561]

Yes you are slow. Was that it?

Suspension is more important at a race track then any other upgrade

 

[vinny337]

Kas,
You know how it goes Bro, the oldest is always correct… If he’s scraping parts and dragging toes, at a minimum you need to take a look at where your geometry is set and makes adjustments. As you start to pick up your pace and feel what the bike is doing, some examples:

* On the gas during exit (is the bike running wide)
* Corner entry (is your rear wheel sliding or do you feel chatter)

That’s when you know it's time for some adjustments, what I’ve learned is when you pick up your pace you can't ride well on a bike that’s not well set up. I think he needs to holla at my man T-Proc!!

 

[Pseudolus]

LMAO!!!!!! Glad to see it's not a slam dunk debate!!!!!!! opcorn:

 

[motorkas]

Thanks guys!!!!!!!! I'm assuming by your replies it is his suspension that's causing the hard parts to touch and is something that should be remedied in the off season!!!!!!!!!!

Otto Man;294591 wrote: He doesn't need Ohlins. He needs the correct suspension set up/ spring rate for his body weight and riding pace.

I would take a professionally set up stock suspension set up over an off the shelf Ohlins set up any day of the week.

This...ohlins won't do anything for him if it isn't sprung correctly. I highly doubt the stock suspension is sprung for his weight.

BMW's come sprung for a 187lb rider (Zeee Germans are big). There have been a lot of complaints about the damping in the front forks (the word non-existent gets used often and both the front and rear were revised for '12 as well as the steering damper) and the stock shock has a progressive spring. I agree that whether it be OEM or Ohlins (Penske, Elka. . .ect) it should be set up correctly and whether it's changing out the springs or upgrading the whole suspension he already knows that he's spending a couple of days dialing it in. I'm concerned for three reasons: 1) there wasn't an obscene amount of lean angle and he touched 2) I have no doubt his pace is going to get quicker next year and he's pretty aggressive with his goals (and accomplishing them) 3) he's my brother - rather than supporting him "seeing what he can get away with", I'd much rather take the whole problem out of the equation.

Believe me, he was kicking my ass all season long on a completely stock bike vs my mostly modified bike so I'm not saying he has to have Ohlins et al to be better faster, I just think he's already headed in that direction - might as well do it now all at once. . .

I'm not sure what "off the shelf" Ohlins set-up refers too. Assuming you are buying new, most reputable shops that will sell you a new Ohlins cartridge kit for you forks, will install it with the appropriate spring rate, and will also help you dial it in for your bike/ridding.

Therefore, what would have for comparison is a professionally set-up Ohlins suspension vs a professionally set-up stock suspension. While it is amazing the difference that professional set-up can make on the OEM stuff, a professional Ohlins set-up is a much better package. It won't make YOU more capable, but it will make the bike more capable.

True...but if it is just that he is bottoming out, having the stock suspension just resprung will fix that. Cartridge kit is next in line for improvement, followed by full Ohlins forks.
Agree with both of you - I'm just advising skipping steps 1 and 2 and going straight to 3. . .. He's not going to race and selling the forks is easier than the kits to the street guys when he decided to get rid of it (that's my story and I'm sticking with it.


With the forks bottoming out, something needs to change! May just be setup.

With the amount of riding you guys did this year, you would be well served by a suspension refresh anyway, so I would talk with your tuner / suspension guru to see what they recommend.

You read our minds - bikes are going in Jan to Markbilt (mine for the re-fresh) - his for the install and/or refresh (whether it be springs or the full monty). . .

I meant "off the shelf" as in buying the Ohlins and it's not set up for the individual in any way shape or form.

If he goes that route - it'll be set up for his weight riding style and tuned track side by Markbilt. . .


Yes you are slow. Was that it?

Suspension is more important at a race track then any other upgrade

Any and all input, advice, suggestions welcome. (except for Mid Atlantic Directors who wear panties that match their paint jobs. . .

Fixed it. . .

 

[motorkas]

Pseudolus;294605 wrote: LMAO!!!!!! Glad to see it's not a slam dunk debate!!!!!!! opcorn:
of course you would see it that way. . .

Kas,
You know how it goes Bro, the oldest is always correct… If he’s scraping parts and dragging toes, at a minimum you need to take a look at where your geometry is set and makes adjustments. As you start to pick up your pace and feel what the bike is doing, some examples:

* On the gas during exit (is the bike running wide)
* Corner entry (is your rear wheel sliding or do you feel chatter)

That’s when you know it's time for some adjustments, what I’ve learned is when you pick up your pace you can't ride well on a bike that’s not well set up. I think he needs to holla at my man T-Proc!!

I'll give him a call and see what's up. . .thanks brother (for ALL of the WISDOM in your post!!!!!!)

 

[HondaGalToo]

Since you're taking the bikes to Markbilt (excellent choice, BTW), I would ask Mark what he recommends. He'll steer you in the right direction. But dragging hard parts is bad. I used to drag a toe, nearly a footpeg, in that turn. For me, it was a slight body position fix. Sounds like it's more than that for Pseudo since the forks seem to be bottoming out. See what Mark recommends and I'd go with that.

One final parting comment on the "late braking" and wanting to work on "braking harder and later" next year. Instead, how about working on braking longer and lighter? Food for thought...

 

[z064life]

HondaGalToo;294614 wrote: Since you're taking the bikes to Markbilt (excellent choice, BTW), I would ask Mark what he recommends. He'll steer you in the right direction. But dragging hard parts is bad. I used to drag a toe, nearly a footpeg, in that turn. For me, it was a slight body position fix. Sounds like it's more than that for Pseudo since the forks seem to be bottoming out. See what Mark recommends and I'd go with that.

One final parting comment on the "late braking" and wanting to work on "braking harder and later" next year. Instead, how about working on braking longer and lighter? Food for thought...

Judy...one slight clarification for the OP. He says he is bottoming out, but I'd question WHERE he is doing that. I also bottom my forks but it is only under braking, not in the corner which is my riding style. Bottoming out your forks in a corner is bad and needs corrected, but I'd bet that isn't the case.

 

[Slow Steve]

I think he needs an sv650, then he can leave the bmw at my house for "safe" keeping until he gets his A bump!

 

[Pseudolus]

HondaGalToo;294614 wrote: Instead, how about working on braking longer and lighter? Food for thought...
Love it Judy! What I was trying to say was that I'm scrubbing way too much speed. I'm getting on the brakes too late, then panicking, breaking really hard, then realizing "I could have carried much more speed." I believe your recommendation will solve that! :adore:

z064life;294616 wrote: Bottoming out your forks in a corner is bad and needs corrected, but I'd bet that isn't the case.

You sir, have hit it on the head! It's definitely while the bike is straight up and down under hard braking as I'm so scared of the trailbraking/grip equation that I'm always easing off as turn in occurs. :adore:

 

[vinny337]

z064life;294616 wrote: Judy...one slight clarification for the OP. He says he is bottoming out, but I'd question WHERE he is doing that. I also bottom my forks but it is only under braking, not in the corner which is my riding style. Bottoming out your forks in a corner is bad and needs corrected, but I'd bet that isn't the case.

Zo64life,

Let’s further clarify that bottoming out anywhere is not good. If you're bottoming out on hard braking, typically that means you’re bottoming out before you turn into a corner, which is not good.

 

[jcrich]

I would say if you are buying him the Ohlins suspension he should definitely go for it. Otherwise just get what he has setup for him.

 

[moman]

I have a '10 S1KRR with stock suspension and have never scraped anything. The 187 lbs you mention is for a rider with gear so your brother is well above that. With gear I'm 189. I occasionally bottom the tie wrap on my forks but that's when the rear wheel is just lifting at max braking.
I watched the video several times where you say he hits and IMHO he appears to have the bike leaned quite a bit. You say the exhaust hit, is it stock?

 

[Pseudolus]

Slow Steve;294620 wrote: I think he needs an sv650, then he can leave the bmw at my house for "safe" keeping until he gets his A bump! LMFAO!!!!!!

vinny337;294622 wrote: Zo64life,

Let’s further clarify that bottoming out anywhere is not good. If you're bottoming out on hard braking, typically that means you’re bottoming out before you turn into a corner, which is not good.

Hey Vin is in! Can you please elaborate on this and why it is bad/how it reduces performance? I kind of took it as a badge of honor, not understanding suspension performance at all. Thank you in advance!

jcrich;294633 wrote: I would say if you are buying him the Ohlins suspension he should definitely go for it. Otherwise just get what he has setup for him.

I smell another debate topic!!!!!!!! :adore: Who should fund the suspension! LOL