NJMP Mon Aug 12 Crash in Chicane A Group
- Thread starter mperussault
- Start date
mperussault
Member
Hey burn-z, any chance you would post that go-pro video you took from your bike? I really would like to see what was happening behind me before I got hit.
mperussault
Member
I was very surprised to read this. If this is how many people are on the track at the same time a T-Bolt, and given the different bikes cc. displacements and wide riding skills levels within a group.... no wonder there are so many crashes. This is totally insane. Nesba: did you ever think that may be you are setting up a situation where it is unsafe to ride? Nesba is a non-profit org. so why would you care how many riders there are per session?
My guess is that 30 riders max was probably a good number for that track.
Judy: thanks for your inputs, looks like you are the only willing to speak up here.
PATBAROK
Member
will it take a lot more effort, in instances where there are a certain number of folks riding in one group-to maybe make 2 groups out of them?! Just to make it safer and make it easier for the CR's to keep an eye out on everyone?!
i know last year, another org did that on way too-crowded TD's a few instances where I went...
i know last year, another org did that on way too-crowded TD's a few instances where I went...
HondaGalToo
Control Rider
To clarify, 55 is the max they allow per group to sign up (I think it's too many). That's how many were signed up in I group that day. I think A had around 38, but don't quote me on that.
I also agree that 30 is good, 35 max.
I shared similar thoughts in my thread -- too many riders in I-Group (55!) and B-Group (45!), and the shocking number of crashes throughout the day, in just about every session with every group.
I rode in I-Group and there were some really quick and aggressive riders out there. This group had riders with wide ranging skill levels, which can be a recipe for disaster and mayhem (ie. crashes, multiple-crashes in one session).
I agree, breaking I-Group into two groups of more-similar skill levels should make things safer for all.
Other organizations have 4 groups with a 35 rider limit per group, which ran safer and with much less crashing. NESBA should take notice.
I rode in I-Group and there were some really quick and aggressive riders out there. This group had riders with wide ranging skill levels, which can be a recipe for disaster and mayhem (ie. crashes, multiple-crashes in one session).
I agree, breaking I-Group into two groups of more-similar skill levels should make things safer for all.
Other organizations have 4 groups with a 35 rider limit per group, which ran safer and with much less crashing. NESBA should take notice.
HondaGalToo
Control Rider
No. Absolutely not. The solution is not to overbook and then add a fourth group. I know of other orgs that have done that, and I absolutely hate that. It's unfair to everyone else signed up for the day and expecting the usual three-group format. The solution is to make a realistic number, then don't overbook. Nesba doesn't overbook, for that I give them credit, their online sign up system works extremely well and doesn't allow for more than the maximum allowed to sign up. But I still think 55 is too many on that course. I thought it was lower in the past, but I'm not sure. The solution in this case, as I see it anyway, is to have a lower maximum allowed number.
First of all, I'm glad everyone was able to walk away from this incident and alive and well to tell about it.
I normally won't chime in on heated topics, but I don't feel this incident and/or perceived problem is being viewed through the correct lens. It is absolutely true that there were a disproportionate number of crashes in ALL groups this past Monday. But to discuss the best approach to solving this problem "as if it's a matter of fact" does not help. In this instance, it happened in the group with the least number of riders and greatest level of experience (as track days go).
I'm going to make these comments; dismiss them or take them to heart, it's up to the reader. Much of what is being tossed around is is a bit of conjecture and there are certainly raised tensions at the moment. But one thing that is clear is that this is a case of -what I call- "pilot error" and just poor judgement. None of us here were in the head of the person on the bike (except for #96 himself) and only have the aftermath to consider/observe. So to state emphatically that it's the number of riders, the disparity of riders, or anything else is just simply off base and unsubstantiated. The truth is that we don't know, but they're all points that should be considered.
Plain and simple, this IS NOT racing. It's a track day. It's a place to have fun, a place to learn, and a place to work on whatever it is you came here to do. It's unfortunate that some folks can cause or contribute to an incident where someone else has to pay the price. That's just not fair. People are not here to get taken out because someone could not follow the rules, could not show common courtesy to another rider, and/or keep their own ego in check. THAT is what this is about. There is NO instance where a rider of any reasonable experience should ride up on another rider and have an oh-shit moment like this. No offense Mr. #96, but you just weren't paying attention. Came in too hot, grabbed too much brake, who the hell knows... but if you had yourself in check and were aware of your surroundings, this could have resulted in a materially different outcome. It's not my intent to be harsh with you.
The CRs cannot ride your bikes for you, they don't control your throttle, nor do they control your braking. The only way this sport will have a remote chance at being anything close to safe is for people to be responsible (as best as humanly possible), because there's an awful lot that can go wrong out there. As was so eloquently stated by Morph, "this shit ain't knittin'..." and it could not be more true. Thanks for the reminder, Dan.
No one is a bad guy here. No one got on their bike and said, "I'm going to crash into this guy", everyone feels bad about it, and so on. But back to the point, it all comes back to someone's day got ruined because others couldn't follow simple rules of safety and common courtesy. This is not to single out #96, this went on all day in every group. People could not throw their shit on the ground fast enough.
And ask yourself this... how is it that the fastest mother fuckers on that track (Yates, May, etc.) had no incidents or close calls crashing into people? Granted, they're far more experienced, but they ride with courtesy in mind and they politely and safely navigated their way around us all day.
There's no reason we can't be the same way to each other.
I normally won't chime in on heated topics, but I don't feel this incident and/or perceived problem is being viewed through the correct lens. It is absolutely true that there were a disproportionate number of crashes in ALL groups this past Monday. But to discuss the best approach to solving this problem "as if it's a matter of fact" does not help. In this instance, it happened in the group with the least number of riders and greatest level of experience (as track days go).
I'm going to make these comments; dismiss them or take them to heart, it's up to the reader. Much of what is being tossed around is is a bit of conjecture and there are certainly raised tensions at the moment. But one thing that is clear is that this is a case of -what I call- "pilot error" and just poor judgement. None of us here were in the head of the person on the bike (except for #96 himself) and only have the aftermath to consider/observe. So to state emphatically that it's the number of riders, the disparity of riders, or anything else is just simply off base and unsubstantiated. The truth is that we don't know, but they're all points that should be considered.
Plain and simple, this IS NOT racing. It's a track day. It's a place to have fun, a place to learn, and a place to work on whatever it is you came here to do. It's unfortunate that some folks can cause or contribute to an incident where someone else has to pay the price. That's just not fair. People are not here to get taken out because someone could not follow the rules, could not show common courtesy to another rider, and/or keep their own ego in check. THAT is what this is about. There is NO instance where a rider of any reasonable experience should ride up on another rider and have an oh-shit moment like this. No offense Mr. #96, but you just weren't paying attention. Came in too hot, grabbed too much brake, who the hell knows... but if you had yourself in check and were aware of your surroundings, this could have resulted in a materially different outcome. It's not my intent to be harsh with you.
The CRs cannot ride your bikes for you, they don't control your throttle, nor do they control your braking. The only way this sport will have a remote chance at being anything close to safe is for people to be responsible (as best as humanly possible), because there's an awful lot that can go wrong out there. As was so eloquently stated by Morph, "this shit ain't knittin'..." and it could not be more true. Thanks for the reminder, Dan.
No one is a bad guy here. No one got on their bike and said, "I'm going to crash into this guy", everyone feels bad about it, and so on. But back to the point, it all comes back to someone's day got ruined because others couldn't follow simple rules of safety and common courtesy. This is not to single out #96, this went on all day in every group. People could not throw their shit on the ground fast enough.
And ask yourself this... how is it that the fastest mother fuckers on that track (Yates, May, etc.) had no incidents or close calls crashing into people? Granted, they're far more experienced, but they ride with courtesy in mind and they politely and safely navigated their way around us all day.
There's no reason we can't be the same way to each other.
mperussault
Member
That thread is finally getting good. Someone print it and send it to the Seniors Execs. at NESBA!
mike574
Member
Four groups is not the answer, other orgs run the 4 groups and that is why I prefer nesba. Also all the crashing that happened on Monday, could that have been due to the lemons race the day before leaving oil all over the track??? I know on my first session out on Monday my bike was moving around a lot and I was riding my sv.
I also would like to see #96's video
I also would like to see #96's video
HondaGalToo
Control Rider
Well put, Rob.:adore: You put my thoughts into words much more eloquently than did I, because this stuff just super gets me wound up. Thanks for stating it better than I.
PATBAROK
Member
video from #96's go pro...it's more towards the end-bout the 4.10 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvp3Z5I8Y8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvp3Z5I8Y8c
burn-z
New Member
I didn't really have an oh shit moment but was caught off guard when 350 caught up and moved over so quickly based on his initial entry speed. This was my first time at NJMP but felt very comfortable out there. I've done over a dozen NESBA events at Road Atlanta and Barber and this is the first time I've ever been down or even off the track for that matter. Being 52, I don't suffer from a younger guys' feeling of invincibility and have too much to risk hurting myself or others. I'm a fairly conservative passer and error on the side of caution as I don't know the people I'm riding with. I don't really think there were too many riders on track either, at least in A group. NESBA is a very well run track day org and I feel totally safe out there at any of the events I've ever been too. If you see someone riding irresponsibly, let it go and let a CR know about it. I've been to other track days where there were no accidents and the next day has no-stop red flags. I can guarantee you I had nothing to prove out there, but in retrospect wish I would have waited to pass in a different corner. I don't feel I was riding recklessly or carelessly but it's all part of the game and I'm sorry it played out like this.
burn-z
New Member
Thanks Mike. I think just not really knowing the track that well had more to do with it. It is definitely one of the narrower tracks I've been too. It's not like this is Blackhawk Farm in IL but it's no Barber of Miller which feel at least twice as wide. I only had a split second to decide and didn't feel like I was riding beyond my comfort level. If I hadn't seen him closing back up and over and just stayed on it without slowing I'm sure I would have been gone. Hindsight is 20/20 though, right? I've done a lot of track days at a lot of different tracks and other than one off as a result of catching neutral this is the only accident I've had in four years and about 100 track days.
mperussault
Member
Hey I watched your gopro video. I am on a 600 and you are on a 1000. You are more like flick, point and gas it like a literbike riding style. It looks like you were catching up with me pretty quickly in between T2 and T3. If your look at you speed you went from a top speed of 92 (in between T2-T3) to only 88 as you got close behind me entering T3A and started leaning the bike, so not much slowing down in pre-turn approach. I think that you were just following me and doing what I was doing. The only difference is that I trail brake, and in that specific turn I lightly trail brake all the way to the first apex. If you look at your speed again, in between the tilt point in at 88mph and the time we both cross the first apex cone of the right hander we are down to 83. By then you are almost next to me and it's too late.
The reason most people will trail brake here is because if you mess up the entry in 3A, you have to slow down in 3B and you come out really slow or need extreme lean angle in 3C. It's one of these sections where if you mess up the entry you mess up the entire series of 3 turns.
Anyway, just keep an eye and 2 fingers on the front brake for those trail brakers.