Novice to Intermediate Question

[Italian Stallion 1199s]

We don't run our novice group like Mid-Ohio. Mid-Ohio is basically lead-follow all day. We do not do that outside of the first 2 laps of the first 2 sessions to let people get acclimated to the corner workers stations and the track. You are then free to run your pace within the group rules.

I did notice this the first time I ran with y'all last year. It was definitely much more of a free experience! Great group of people here willing to share the knowledge they acquired over the years, I can't wait to keep learning and growing.

 

[Otto Man]

I ride a Panigale 1199s and and find myself getting on peoples ass quickly down the straight and going at a snails pace through the turns since some of the other riders are going significantly slower and not really pushing it. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but I just want to sharpen my skills and keep improving my riding abilities.

Thanks in advance for any input!
Matt

A topic as old as the day of the very first track day with different skill groups...here we go

Advanced group is like doing calculus, intermediate is doing algebra, and novice group is doing simple addition/subtraction. If you can't add or subtract, you really don't have any business doing anything more difficult.

Novice group should never hold you back. Sure, at some points the passing rules might prohibit passing at a certain point in the track for a short amount of time. But are those bikes really holding you back? You said it yourself - you have a big bike and able to run bikes down on the straight (drag racing). Why can't you just pass them on the brakes with all that speed? A simple straight up and down pass, either coming out of a corner or going into is one of the first fundamental passing skills you have to master before working on outside, let alone inside, corner passing.

It's very, very easy to pick out a rider that needs to move up. Maybe that's you, maybe it's not. If I had a dollar for every person that thought they were ready for a bump and were not, I'd have several thousand dollars at this point. If I had to pay $100 for every person that said they were ready for a bump and they actually were, I'd still have several thousand dollars.

The hot pit lane is a love/hate thing for me. It does get you clean track fast, but doesn't do anything to further your passing craft. More often than not, it's the riders inability to setup and plan passes that's more of an issue than the traffic itself. Don't get me wrong - there are some CRAZY track days where honestly it is just plain congested. For sure. Not denying that. But the overwhelming majority of "traffic" isn't really traffic at all.

Scan ahead, learn to read the bikes, and adjust your riding as needed to get around those slower riders:

 

[domarena33]

A topic as old as the day of the very first track day with different skill groups...here we go

Advanced group is like doing calculus, intermediate is doing algebra, and novice group is doing simple addition/subtraction. If you can't add or subtract, you really don't have any business doing anything more difficult.

Novice group should never hold you back. Sure, at some points the passing rules might prohibit passing at a certain point in the track for a short amount of time. But are those bikes really holding you back? You said it yourself - you have a big bike and able to run bikes down on the straight (drag racing). Why can't you just pass them on the brakes with all that speed? A simple straight up and down pass, either coming out of a corner or going into is one of the first fundamental passing skills you have to master before working on outside, let alone inside, corner passing.

It's very, very easy to pick out a rider that needs to move up. Maybe that's you, maybe it's not. If I had a dollar for every person that thought they were ready for a bump and were not, I'd have several thousand dollars at this point. If I had to pay $100 for every person that said they were ready for a bump and they actually were, I'd still have several thousand dollars.

The hot pit lane is a love/hate thing for me. It does get you clean track fast, but doesn't do anything to further your passing craft. More often than not, it's the riders inability to setup and plan passes that's more of an issue than the traffic itself. Don't get me wrong - there are some CRAZY track days where honestly it is just plain congested. For sure. Not denying that. But the overwhelming majority of "traffic" isn't really traffic at all.

Scan ahead, learn to read the bikes, and adjust your riding as needed to get around those slower riders:

As someone who was majoring in physics, I can really appreciate your analogy.

 

[Italian Stallion 1199s]

A topic as old as the day of the very first track day with different skill groups...here we go

Advanced group is like doing calculus, intermediate is doing algebra, and novice group is doing simple addition/subtraction. If you can't add or subtract, you really don't have any business doing anything more difficult.

Novice group should never hold you back. Sure, at some points the passing rules might prohibit passing at a certain point in the track for a short amount of time. But are those bikes really holding you back? You said it yourself - you have a big bike and able to run bikes down on the straight (drag racing). Why can't you just pass them on the brakes with all that speed? A simple straight up and down pass, either coming out of a corner or going into is one of the first fundamental passing skills you have to master before working on outside, let alone inside, corner passing.

It's very, very easy to pick out a rider that needs to move up. Maybe that's you, maybe it's not. If I had a dollar for every person that thought they were ready for a bump and were not, I'd have several thousand dollars at this point. If I had to pay $100 for every person that said they were ready for a bump and they actually were, I'd still have several thousand dollars.

The hot pit lane is a love/hate thing for me. It does get you clean track fast, but doesn't do anything to further your passing craft. More often than not, it's the riders inability to setup and plan passes that's more of an issue than the traffic itself. Don't get me wrong - there are some CRAZY track days where honestly it is just plain congested. For sure. Not denying that. But the overwhelming majority of "traffic" isn't really traffic at all.

Scan ahead, learn to read the bikes, and adjust your riding as needed to get around those slower riders:

I did notice a much quicker pace with N2 compared to Mid O… maybe I should have done more track days with y’all before posting

 

[domarena33]

@Italian Stallion 1199s I still think its good that you posted, look at all the convo you started. There's probably more people just reading these threads (and hopefully learning) that are not posting than you think. I find most of these forums very informative and useful because this sport is so heavy on learning. No one on here is Rea or Marquez, we all have more to learn.

 

[Otto Man]

I did notice a much quicker pace with N2 compared to Mid O… maybe I should have done more track days with y’all before posting

Pace varies with all orgs, and sometimes within the same org on different weekends. Just how it goes sometimes. I've had some pretty fast days in Intermediate group and some days I thought "Is this Intermediate or Novice?!"

I had a 1299S for a bit, and that thing would launch out of a corner harder than any bike I knew of. The torque was intoxicating. You have a massive cheat code with the amount of power at your disposal. Setting up a pass coming out of a corner doesn't get any easier. Remember, you might not be able to execute the pass in the corner, but you sure can start the process in the corner. It's all about timing.

 

[Rcmoellerpilot]

Can’t register for the track days on the ninth and the 10th. It has to do with my login info I guess.

 

[Slitherin]

Best advice I can give is to find out who the Captain of your group is and have a chat. Introduce yourself, mention that you have ridden with multiple organizations and are looking for some feedback on your riding. I would not even mention that you are in any particular group with another organization because honestly, that means nothing to the person you will be riding with. I would also not do this at registration or the riders meeting. In fact I would wait until after the first session. Usually the first session the CR's are busy sorting the group out. Take note of where the Captain (or any CR in the novice group) is pitted and find them between your sessions. Do not say "The novice are slowing me down". That is the first indication to the CR that you may not be ready yet. When you do get a chance to go out and ride with a CR, do your best to ride your ride within the rules of the group. The person evaluating you would rather you not make a pass vs a sketchy pass or a pass that is not within the rules of your group. Set people up exiting the corners or out braking them into a corner. Even if they are on an R1 and you're on a Ninja 400 the CR will see you set them up on the exit. Even if they rip past you 20 yards down the track that is ok. The CR knows you do not have a prayer of keeping him behind you. Like Tom said, one of the things we as CR's like doing the most is progressing people from one group to the next. If they feel like there is still something to work on, they will let you know what that thing is. When you do get the bump you will most likely find yourself right in the middle of the I Group pack. It's just how that seems to work. But most of all, just have fun. A CR can easily see when someone is having fun riding vs getting frustrated with people around them. Usually the session that you had the most fun in is the session the CR approaches and say, Yeah, we're gonna need you to go up a group.

 

[PatricksDad]

A topic as old as the day of the very first track day with different skill groups...here we go

Advanced group is like doing calculus, intermediate is doing algebra, and novice group is doing simple addition/subtraction. If you can't add or subtract, you really don't have any business doing anything more difficult.

Novice group should never hold you back. Sure, at some points the passing rules might prohibit passing at a certain point in the track for a short amount of time. But are those bikes really holding you back? You said it yourself - you have a big bike and able to run bikes down on the straight (drag racing). Why can't you just pass them on the brakes with all that speed? A simple straight up and down pass, either coming out of a corner or going into is one of the first fundamental passing skills you have to master before working on outside, let alone inside, corner passing.

It's very, very easy to pick out a rider that needs to move up. Maybe that's you, maybe it's not. If I had a dollar for every person that thought they were ready for a bump and were not, I'd have several thousand dollars at this point. If I had to pay $100 for every person that said they were ready for a bump and they actually were, I'd still have several thousand dollars.

The hot pit lane is a love/hate thing for me. It does get you clean track fast, but doesn't do anything to further your passing craft. More often than not, it's the riders inability to setup and plan passes that's more of an issue than the traffic itself. Don't get me wrong - there are some CRAZY track days where honestly it is just plain congested. For sure. Not denying that. But the overwhelming majority of "traffic" isn't really traffic at all.

Scan ahead, learn to read the bikes, and adjust your riding as needed to get around those slower riders:

I found this with some help from a CR last summer, and then only used the hot-pit tactic when I came up on 3-4 riders in a clump that rode wide in and out. Otherwise I enjoyed dragging a S100RR or R1 out of a corner on my SV , if only for a few dozen yards.

 

[kappy1000]

Hey everyone,

I was about to sign up for several track days with N2 but right before check out I noticed I am currently registered in the Novice group. After riding with N2 in Pitt in 2023 and a handful of track days at Mid-O between 2021 - 2023 I feel the Novice class is slowing my speed and growth opportunities. Actually, when at Pitt a buddy and I were accidentally sent out with the Advanced group because we came to the starting grid wayyyy to early and the track marshall sent us out by accident. Obviously they zipped by us entering/exiting the corner but neither of us were flagged to exit the course due to our speed or lack of care/awareness for the other riders.

I ride a Panigale 1199s and and find myself getting on peoples ass quickly down the straight and going at a snails pace through the turns since some of the other riders are going significantly slower and not really pushing it. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but I just want to sharpen my skills and keep improving my riding abilities.

Thanks in advance for any input!
Matt

Have you spoken with a coach at the track to ride with you? If yes, what feedback did you receive. If no, why not?

 

[mikeinatlanta]

New guy here. New to this organization but older than dirt. Last time I raced was 1990, but that was when I was young, had a pair, and hadn't misplaced my talent. Now, after a bit over 30 years away from the track I'm just here to have some fun turning laps. My first event with N2 will be Roebling Road in May. Looks like the software automatically signed me up for Novice, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Novice or intermediate is my happy place depending on the group. I'm off liter bikes and now on a 300.
What I've learned this subject.
1. If you think passing in novice is tough, just wait until you try passing barely slower guys in intermediate, same theory in advanced. Passing in novice is the easiest passing you will ever have at the track. If a group, you don't have to pass the whole group at once. Just pass as many as you safely can and blend in until next opportunity.
2. When it's time to move up, even if you don't really want to, I find that it will often come up as a request rather than award. Rest assured, when it's time they will tell you. I've even been asked to move up to make room for some newer riders in the slower group. No sweat.
3. I find that one thing most coaches really appreciate is when a truly faster rider is passing slower novice riders, treat the slower rider with kit gloves and pass as gently as you can. That slow rider is likely riding right at their limit and bombing them could upset them enough to send them off.
4. Agree with the comments about hot pits not being the best way to learn how to pass. That said, it can be a blessing if you see a group of 10 really fast guys bearing down on you two turns back. A multiple bike flyby is not a lot of fun, and the last rider in that group passing is where it tends to get dicey.
5. Lastly: Basic track day etiquette. This is not a race. If you pass a slower rider and he uses his hp to go back by on the straight, you are riding next to an asshole. Same if a slower bike passes you. Don't pass him back. Give him two turns to get out of reach. You are better served by backing off the throttle a bit, follow him, and learn something. You won't be following close for long because he caught your faster bike for a reason.
Have fun!

 

[The B Team]

If you pass a slower rider and he uses his hp to go back by on the straight, you are riding next to an asshole.

 

[Jorgy]

New guy here. New to this organization but older than dirt. Last time I raced was 1990, but that was when I was young, had a pair, and hadn't misplaced my talent. Now, after a bit over 30 years away from the track I'm just here to have some fun turning laps. My first event with N2 will be Roebling Road in May. Looks like the software automatically signed me up for Novice, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Novice or intermediate is my happy place depending on the group. I'm off liter bikes and now on a 300.
What I've learned this subject.
1. If you think passing in novice is tough, just wait until you try passing barely slower guys in intermediate, same theory in advanced. Passing in novice is the easiest passing you will ever have at the track. If a group, you don't have to pass the whole group at once. Just pass as many as you safely can and blend in until next opportunity.
2. When it's time to move up, even if you don't really want to, I find that it will often come up as a request rather than award. Rest assured, when it's time they will tell you. I've even been asked to move up to make room for some newer riders in the slower group. No sweat.
3. I find that one thing most coaches really appreciate is when a truly faster rider is passing slower novice riders, treat the slower rider with kit gloves and pass as gently as you can. That slow rider is likely riding right at their limit and bombing them could upset them enough to send them off.
4. Agree with the comments about hot pits not being the best way to learn how to pass. That said, it can be a blessing if you see a group of 10 really fast guys bearing down on you two turns back. A multiple bike flyby is not a lot of fun, and the last rider in that group passing is where it tends to get dicey.
5. Lastly: Basic track day etiquette. This is not a race. If you pass a slower rider and he uses his hp to go back by on the straight, you are riding next to an asshole. Same if a slower bike passes you. Don't pass him back. Give him two turns to get out of reach. You are better served by backing off the throttle a bit, follow him, and learn something. You won't be following close for long because he caught your faster bike for a reason.
Have fun!

100% on this. You should raise your hand at your first riders meeting and read this post out loud.

 

[HondaGalToo]

Well said, Mike from Atlanta! Hope to see you at the track, although I don't get down south very often these days.
<<<<also older than dirt. Ha!

 

[mikeinatlanta]

Well said, Mike from Atlanta! Hope to see you at the track, although I don't get down south very often these days.
<<<<also older than dirt. Ha!

Thanks, and nice "cheater" bike combo in your profile! Back in my day the hot combo was a seven eleven. The elevens back then made less power than your 13 750, at least until you spent some $$.

 

[HondaGalToo]

Thanks, and nice "cheater" bike combo in your profile! Back in my day the hot combo was a seven eleven. The elevens back then made less power than your 13 750, at least until you spent some $$.

I didn't plan it. It dropped a valve, destroying the 600 engine. So I'm like, why not a bit more hp? LOL.