Pitt 7/10

DethWshBkr

New Member
My brother and I were tempted to sign up for the 10th at Pitt.
We're not quite sure yet due to weather unknowns at this point in time of course. Problem is we understand that usually fills up pretty quick. Is there a way to find out how many spots are open? We would both be in novice class.
How are passing rules there? We have only been to Summit Main now twice, so we're thinking about trying a different track. I know this last time at Summit, it felt like there was a massive discrepancy between riders, and if you followed the passing rules it got extremely difficult to get by people. Quite often there were very large blobs.
Curious to see if passing in novice class would be any easier at Pitt or if it's actually going to be more difficult.

Thank you!
 

Shifty10

Control Rider
If you want a spot for any track day, it is always best to sign up early, especially for Pitt. Weather watching is usually never the right choice as race tracks seem to have their own weather patterns that most apps don't predict correctly even 24 hours out. If you have the elite membership, you can always cancel and get those credits back.

As for passing, Pitt has several places that make passing possible in any group. A key to remember is, if you are unable to pass safely within the rules of whichever group you are in, that is probably a good indicator that there are some things you need to work on still (keeping in mind bike displacement differences of course).
 

DethWshBkr

New Member
I think the big problem with Summit for passing is that for Novice, there are basically two spots. Short straight, and long straight. Obviously everyone gets on the go juice, and barring displacement, it's pretty even. Then there is basically no passing until you get to the short straight again. There were many, many times I felt as though it was required to slow down to a very uncomfortable speed to prevent a pass in a section. (Which is fine, as it is novice class and I don't expect a ton of experience out of the group as a whole).

My dad was watching the whole day at different spots along the track and he said the same thing. He seemed to also believe that people were getting bunched up because they couldn't pass, which then makes a large conglomerate of people. Of course, large groups are much harder to pass through.
Unfortunately not everybody was following the passing rules and so then you would have people making passes where they should not have been which then throws everything out of whack even more.
 

Shifty10

Control Rider
Those are all valid points. Summit Main is definitely a bit tricky due to the layout of the track. Pitt has many more opportunities and "straights" that allow for more passing, particularly in Novice group.

Sometimes it can be frustrating, but there is always the option to come down "hot pit" and wait for a big gap. Chances are, if there are big groups running around, there are huge open sections of track.

Long story short, Pitt is arguably one of the best tracks we go to and if you are considering it and haven't been yet, it is definitely worth the trip!
 

DethWshBkr

New Member
Those are all valid points. Summit Main is definitely a bit tricky due to the layout of the track. Pitt has many more opportunities and "straights" that allow for more passing, particularly in Novice group.

Sometimes it can be frustrating, but there is always the option to come down "hot pit" and wait for a big gap. Chances are, if there are big groups running around, there are huge open sections of track.

Long story short, Pitt is arguably one of the best tracks we go to and if you are considering it and haven't been yet, it is definitely worth the trip!


Please don't take what I'm saying here as a complaint however. That is not the case, it is simply an observation.

We are seriously contemplating going to Pitt.
Is there a way to know how many spots are available? How many can register before it's considered full? Is it usually filthy out there in July? I honestly can't believe it could be much worse than it was last week, that was nasty!
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Shifty10

Control Rider
haha. didn't take it that way, even if it was a complaint, that is fine too. We are always looking for ways to make the overall experience better in the safest way possible.

As for the spots available, I will have to defer to a staff member for a specific number on spots, but looking at the current registrations, it appears there are about 10 spots left in Novice for that Saturday.
 

HondaGalToo

Control Rider
Yeah, no worries about expressing the passing opinion. One thing we always mention that no one seems to do: If you are all bunched up in a large group, pit in, go down hot pit and back out. Or wait there 20-30 seconds and go back out. Sometimes when watching from the sidelines, there's like 30 people all together, and the rest of the track is empty. Pitt is long enough that it would take awhile to catch up to a large group again if you did the pit in trick.

There are more places for passing than at Summit.

There's no list or anything members can access to see if the group is full. As others have mentioned, Pitt sells out like a month ahead of time. Best track on the east coast!! Do it! Sign up for both days. So worth it. Everyone hangs out Saturday night.
 

tdelegram

Control Rider
There’s a lot covered above, but let me drill down on what Alex said that most people miss. If you can’t pass safely in your group your not ready for the next group. There are 5 straights at summit where you can pass in novice, so you shouldn’t get too hung up, additionally I have seen 300‘s out brake 1000’s into t1 and keep open track in front of them so it’s more than possible. Coming on to the front straight might be a different story for a low cc bike but learning how good the brakes are and how much time and space you can gain is part of novice group. Finally, all the control ridrrs started where you did so we understand and remember, when we share with you it’s based on being there, lots of seat time and training. I was next to you guys at summit and it wasn’t a great day, if you’re planning more days one rain day pays for the elite membership. Most importantly, Summit is a great track, Pitt is outstanding, rivaled by few tracks east of the Mississipp.
 

DethWshBkr

New Member
haha. didn't take it that way, even if it was a complaint, that is fine too. We are always looking for ways to make the overall experience better in the safest way possible.

As for the spots available, I will have to defer to a staff member for a specific number on spots, but looking at the current registrations, it appears there are about 10 spots left in Novice for that Saturday.

If I would give advice it would be that there is a massive speed discrepancies especially at a super fast place like that. There were certainly times down the main street I had to been passing people doing over 60 MPH faster. I wanted to make sure I got by before the corner and I was stuck for the next lap.
There’s a lot covered above, but let me drill down on what Alex said that most people miss. If you can’t pass safely in your group your not ready for the next group. There are 5 straights at summit where you can pass in novice, so you shouldn’t get too hung up, additionally I have seen 300‘s out brake 1000’s into t1 and keep open track in front of them so it’s more than possible. Coming on to the front straight might be a different story for a low cc bike but learning how good the brakes are and how much time and space you can gain is part of novice group. Finally, all the control ridrrs started where you did so we understand and remember, when we share with you it’s based on being there, lots of seat time and training. I was next to you guys at summit and it wasn’t a great day, if you’re planning more days one rain day pays for the elite membership. Most importantly, Summit is a great track, Pitt is outstanding, rivaled by few tracks east of the Mississipp.


Wasn't a great day? I honestly thought it was! A lot better than the first day when it was raining! Ha!

I think maybe it's coming off as if I'm being too whiny or something. I hope not, but over the interwebs, it impossible to interpret tone.
I personally as a rider has no real "issue" with passing. I am more than comfortable with people around, and I was comfortable out braking down the main straight. My main passing zone was the end of the main straight, or crossing under the bridge.
I will say I did make a few passes from 2 to 3, but I didn't like that, as I felt I was "sneaking up and surprising" people. I was probably just being overly concerned for the other guy, when they may not have cared. It just felt like I was doing something wrong, since the first time there, that area was not a passing zone.

Still ridiculously enjoyable. Still have a good bit too work on - QUIT drifting to the inside on 1 and get the 7/8 line properly done. Ive seen it, and I see how much time is lost, but for some reason keep pushing it to wide into 8 and needing to really ball it up.
 

jslade11

New Member
There’s a lot covered above, but let me drill down on what Alex said that most people miss. If you can’t pass safely in your group your not ready for the next group. There are 5 straights at summit where you can pass in novice, so you shouldn’t get too hung up, additionally I have seen 300‘s out brake 1000’s into t1 and keep open track in front of them so it’s more than possible. Coming on to the front straight might be a different story for a low cc bike but learning how good the brakes are and how much time and space you can gain is part of novice group. Finally, all the control ridrrs started where you did so we understand and remember, when we share with you it’s based on being there, lots of seat time and training. I was next to you guys at summit and it wasn’t a great day, if you’re planning more days one rain day pays for the elite membership. Most importantly, Summit is a great track, Pitt is outstanding, rivaled by few tracks east of the Mississipp.

I think some questions in my are more about the rules of passing in Novice, and I know I could use some insight on some of the situations I saw on the track. I only want to make sure we're following the rules and doing the right and safe thing, so that's why I'm asking about it. In the riders meeting I believe it was explained that bikes are only allowed to pass when the bikes are "upright", and the passing zones were limited to 4 straighs - the main straight, between 2 and 3, 3 and 4, and 9 and 10. In following the rules, there were times where I came up on much slower traffic too close to the turn to get by before initiating the turn, so I slowed way down to remain behind them until we exited the turn. I also recall getting passed by people on the exits of turns well before the bikes were "upright", which (based on the descriptions in the novice meeting) should have only been permitted in the Intermediate class. There were a number of situations where I felt a level of unpredictability with the other riders and I was concerned that someone could run into the back of me if they expected me to make a pass on the entry/exit of the turn rather than slowing down and waiting for the straights per the rules. Here's a few video examples from 6/10/21 of what I am talking about.

1. Here is one example (time 7:10) between 3-4, going into turn 5. To me, the pass on the outside coming out of turn 3 was questionable, and but the pass on the outside of the rider already entering turn 4 did not appear to me to follow the rules of novice.

2. Another example (time 2:10), is passing on this part of turn 2 considered acceptable?

3. Here I felt I would have been able to pass "safely" on the outside just as entering Turn 1, but I did not want to break the rules or startle the other rider on the inside so I slowed way down and waiting until after the turn to pass. I was a little worried that it would be less safe to slow down dramatically and wait though, as some of the other riders might not expect me to slow down rather than passing. (time 0:00)
 
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mpusch

Micah

You're touching on some great points. I've always done my best to follow the rules in the group I've been in, but I think that some flexibility needs to be there too.

To be clear, I don't speak for N2 and I'm not a CR. They may disagree with me :) Going on the record for specific situations is probably not the best idea, but whatever.

I think the third video you showed is the most clear cut example where I would have 100% gone by him even in Novice. As you mentioned, you're kind of hanging yourself out there by specifically not trying to pass. Frankly, he was going so slow that you could have still passed him with the bike vertical, but that's almost impossible to tell when you're closing SO fast on him. Despite slowing down initially, you theoretically could have passed plenty wide of him and been nowhere near impacting his lines.

The second video is ehhh...close. You're at the point where the race line is taking away lean angle onto a small straight. You hugged the inside line very tight so you're still turning kind of late.

The first video: I think the first pass is pretty nice. The second pass (while I understand that 400 or whatever keeping up momentum) is probably a bit too much.
 

Shifty10

Control Rider
There has definitely been some interesting points you all bring up. I want to call out a specific statement above:

Frankly, he was going so slow that you could have still passed him with the bike vertical, but that's almost impossible to tell when you're closing SO fast on him.

This is something everyone at all levels has to contend with, particularly with different displacement bikes. As difficult as it is to judge the closing speeds sometimes, it is critical to start developing that skill early. It will definitely be valuable in other track day groups and critically important if you start racing. One of the reasons we have the rules by group is to encourage people to develop this skill. The more often you ride with varying skill levels, the better you will become at judging closing speeds and determining well ahead of time whether or not you can safely make the pass. The next challenge is when you anticipate someone slowing down more and they end up carrying more corner speed than expected. This causes you to believe you can make the pass safely and you run out of space real quick.

That being said, erring on the side of caution and courtesy for the other rider is never the wrong answer. Accidents happen, its always a risk, but there is no excuse on a track day for rushing a pass and taking yourself or someone else out. Keep at it and keep practicing. You are looking at all of the right things and will quickly be more comfortable assessing whether or not you can safely pass!

If you find yourself wanting help or practice doing so, come find any of us. I still constantly work on this so I could use the practice as well.
 

mpusch

Micah
There has definitely been some interesting points you all bring up. I want to call out a specific statement above:



This is something everyone at all levels has to contend with, particularly with different displacement bikes. As difficult as it is to judge the closing speeds sometimes, it is critical to start developing that skill early. It will definitely be valuable in other track day groups and critically important if you start racing. One of the reasons we have the rules by group is to encourage people to develop this skill. The more often you ride with varying skill levels, the better you will become at judging closing speeds and determining well ahead of time whether or not you can safely make the pass. The next challenge is when you anticipate someone slowing down more and they end up carrying more corner speed than expected. This causes you to believe you can make the pass safely and you run out of space real quick.

That being said, erring on the side of caution and courtesy for the other rider is never the wrong answer. Accidents happen, its always a risk, but there is no excuse on a track day for rushing a pass and taking yourself or someone else out. Keep at it and keep practicing. You are looking at all of the right things and will quickly be more comfortable assessing whether or not you can safely pass!

If you find yourself wanting help or practice doing so, come find any of us. I still constantly work on this so I could use the practice as well.

Agree with pretty much all that.

Extra agree on the part with erring on the side of caution. There's almost always a decision point of whether you're going to back off or make the move. For me it's always been a very conscious event. Many, many times I have opted (even in races) to be patient. Very little risk in not going for the pass when it's closer than you're comfortable with. Sometimes it turns out to be excessive and you would have made it cleanly, but other times it's darn good that you chose to be careful. Everyone says it, but at the end of the day I just want to bring myself and my bike home in one piece.

Simple fact is the more you ride the better you'll be at making accurate judgement calls. Yes, there's another layer of judgement thrown in when you're also taking the group passing rules into account, but it really is true that as you improve you'll realize that the rules don't really hold you back as much as you think at first.
 

DethWshBkr

New Member
Again, I do hope we don't come across as whiny or complaining. That's not the case. We are both simply looking for clarity.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to explain every possible scenario, so that's why we're bringing it up.

For me, it has been extremely difficult to "unlearn" my motocross tactics. (Take your inside, squaring turns, never follow the guy in front of you, etc....) I am also not accustomed to rules when riding a motorcycle. For 15 years, it has been - Make a pass where you can, how you can. Simple as that. I've been taken down, and I've taken people down that were in my way and refused to yield. But, these bikes weigh twice as much, with speeds far, far greater. The consequences of a crash can be catastrophic, so it is important to be safe. Personally I think I am being too cautious, as I know how fast things can go sideways, especially in a group setting. The rules aren't meant to stifle a rider, but to promote safety. I don't want to get yelled at for not following the rules, or for pushing the rules. I don't want to be "that guy".


Nevertheless, Im really hoping we do Pitt. I am a basic member, and I may sign up with an elite membership since I see it is a 12 month membership, not calendar year. That way if it is garbage weather, we can cancel and just try again!!

Also, PLEASE feel free to critique any of my videos. I welcome observations. (That's why I take video). I already know of a few issues that need correcting, and I am in the process of getting my suspension fixed up so I can have better stability and hopefully stop the rear wheel chatter I was getting!
 

Otto Man

John
Control Rider
Again, I do hope we don't come across as whiny or complaining. That's not the case. We are both simply looking for clarity.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to explain every possible scenario, so that's why we're bringing it up.

For me, it has been extremely difficult to "unlearn" my motocross tactics. (Take your inside, squaring turns, never follow the guy in front of you, etc....) I am also not accustomed to rules when riding a motorcycle. For 15 years, it has been - Make a pass where you can, how you can. Simple as that. I've been taken down, and I've taken people down that were in my way and refused to yield. But, these bikes weigh twice as much, with speeds far, far greater. The consequences of a crash can be catastrophic, so it is important to be safe. Personally I think I am being too cautious, as I know how fast things can go sideways, especially in a group setting. The rules aren't meant to stifle a rider, but to promote safety. I don't want to get yelled at for not following the rules, or for pushing the rules. I don't want to be "that guy".


Nevertheless, Im really hoping we do Pitt. I am a basic member, and I may sign up with an elite membership since I see it is a 12 month membership, not calendar year. That way if it is garbage weather, we can cancel and just try again!!

Also, PLEASE feel free to critique any of my videos. I welcome observations. (That's why I take video). I already know of a few issues that need correcting, and I am in the process of getting my suspension fixed up so I can have better stability and hopefully stop the rear wheel chatter I was getting!

My experience is the opposite of yours. I've had dirt bikes growing up, but never did any hare scrambles or MX. The majority of my adulthood riding has been track riding, and when I recently (last 2-3 years) got into dirt bikes, I was flabbergasted at the [what I thought] complete lack of structure - no passing rules, A class riders practicing with C class riders, people randomly pulling off track any friggin time they felt like, no corner workers, no ambulances on standby...like a free for all. But as you said, on a road race bike, things go sideways incredibly quick and there's devastating consequences when they do, hence having the structure being that much more important.

Did you take any video from your time at Summit?
 

DethWshBkr

New Member
My experience is the opposite of yours. I've had dirt bikes growing up, but never did any hare scrambles or MX. The majority of my adulthood riding has been track riding, and when I recently (last 2-3 years) got into dirt bikes, I was flabbergasted at the [what I though] complete lack of structure - no passing rules, A class riders practicing with C class riders, people randomly pulling off track any friggin time they felt like, no corner workers, no ambulances on standby...like a free for all. But as you said, on a road race bike, things go sideways incredibly quick and there's devastating consequences when they do, hence having the structure being that much more important.

Do you take any video from your time at Summit?
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The first video referenced above is mine from session 1. The others are my brother on my bike (his rear wheel bearing failed in session 1 ).

My channel is here....
I think I have a few still "unlisted". Session 3 went off track in turn 5 because the rear wheel just would not stop chattering. (My suspension is WAY too soft, and I'm pretty sure the front is just compressing like crazy when on the front brakes, which of course unweights the rear)
 

mpusch

Micah
Again, I do hope we don't come across as whiny or complaining. That's not the case. We are both simply looking for clarity.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to explain every possible scenario, so that's why we're bringing it up.

I don't think anyone here feels that way at all. Thinking critically about passing and the rules for your group is a sign of a responsible rider.
 
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