Racing Slick "Bible"?

[domarena33]

Does anyone know if there is a guide / book / master document regarding everything motorcycle racing slicks or is it something you can only learn by track time on them? Reading some of the things that the experienced guys say here is pretty wild and quite a bit to keep track of. For example @DZ_714's post about those SCX's for sale and how he just knows this stuff is pretty crazy. Cold tears, hot tears, heat cycles.. etc.. I know the list gets bigger. I'm a big reader and it would be nice to have something to reference as I start my racing slick journey. All i can do right now is pick up tiny little tidbits of info across the internet and hope the sources are credible.

 

[rpm894]

Pick a brand and stick to it. You will learn how they respond to different conditions by riding them and also how the different compounds within that brand respond compared to each other.

Talk to fast people at the track running that brand to speed up the learning process. Some will be wrong some will be helpful. Find out which tire guys are worth talking to and which aren’t.

 

[Otto Man]

There would have to be multiple bibles, one for each brand, and each bible would then have a version associated with it, as the brands evolve as time goes on. For example, Dunlop went away from the cryptic 4 digit codes and now went to the R labeling for compounds. So the old Dunlop bible is now obsolete.

With that, there's also a ton of variables. Suspension setup, riding style. Sometimes the suspension setup influences the rider's style because a lot of the time, they don't know what they don't know. I've swung a leg over some bikes and been like "this things feels like hammered dog shit". Meanwhile, the owner couldn't tell you when the last time the suspension was serviced/gone through. Why am I going to bother to analyze tire wear at that point?

#1 thing a rider can do is get to know his own bike. People will ask me very specific questions while having no specific information about their own bike. Like what, you ask? If you ask me a specific question, you should know the basics of your own motorcycle:

- Fork/shock springs
- Gearing you're running
- What tire compounds F/R
- How many sessions/laps are on the tires
- What tire pressure you're running
- Most importantly...when was the last time you had your tire pressure gauge checked for accuracy?

Had a fellow racer tell me over this past Memorial Day weekend that his SC0 rear fell off grip wise after 5-6 laps and he asked if I could look at his bike. I asked what pressure he was running, and he said 24, which is the go-to starting point for it, so he was on the right track. I then asked him when was the last time he had his gauge checked, to which he said never. I told him I don't need to look at your bike, your gauge is probably inaccurate. Get it tested. Saw him later that day and his gauge was reading 4 PSI low. Tire had great grip for a few laps until it got too hot (greasy) because there wasn't enough air in it to keep the carcass shape. Over flexing the tire creates a ton of heat (same reason most car/truck/trailer tires blow out, a leak in the tire causes PSI to drop, creates heat, goes boom), tire got outside its temperature operating range. Didn't even have to get off my Zuma.

 

[DZ_714]

Does anyone know if there is a guide / book / master document regarding everything motorcycle racing slicks or is it something you can only learn by track time on them? Reading some of the things that the experienced guys say here is pretty wild and quite a bit to keep track of. For example @DZ_714's post about those SCX's for sale and how he just knows this stuff is pretty crazy. Cold tears, hot tears, heat cycles.. etc.. I know the list gets bigger. I'm a big reader and it would be nice to have something to reference as I start my racing slick journey. All i can do right now is pick up tiny little tidbits of info across the internet and hope the sources are credible.

Experience over time and knowledge from other more experienced racers and convos with tire guys, etc. There's a lot to it and it takes time and pace to learn about it. I'll be the first to say that I only know the basics when it comes to pirelli race slicks. So I go to guys like @Otto Man when I have questions who are just more experienced.

If I was you, as a newer rider, I would not try to fill my brain with this stuff. Don't get ahead of yourself. Stick to your trackday tire and as you get more into the sport, get faster, etc etc the rest will follow almost organically.

 

[boike333]

There would have to be multiple bibles, one for each brand, and each bible would then have a version associated with it, as the brands evolve as time goes on. For example, Dunlop went away from the cryptic 4 digit codes and now went to the R labeling for compounds. So the old Dunlop bible is now obsolete.

With that, there's also a ton of variables. Suspension setup, riding style. Sometimes the suspension setup influences the rider's style because a lot of the time, they don't know what they don't know. I've swung a leg over some bikes and been like "this things feels like hammered dog shit". Meanwhile, the owner couldn't tell you when the last time the suspension was serviced/gone through. Why am I going to bother to analyze tire wear at that point?

#1 thing a rider can do is get to know his own bike. People will ask me very specific questions while having no specific information about their own bike. Like what, you ask? If you ask me a specific question, you should know the basics of your own motorcycle:

- Fork/shock springs
- Gearing you're running
- What tire compounds F/R
- How many sessions/laps are on the tires
- What tire pressure you're running
- Most importantly...when was the last time you had your tire pressure gauge checked for accuracy?

Had a fellow racer tell me over this past Memorial Day weekend that his SC0 rear fell off grip wise after 5-6 laps and he asked if I could look at his bike. I asked what pressure he was running, and he said 24, which is the go-to starting point for it, so he was on the right track. I then asked him when was the last time he had his gauge checked, to which he said never. I told him I don't need to look at your bike, your gauge is probably inaccurate. Get it tested. Saw him later that day and his gauge was reading 4 PSI low. Tire had great grip for a few laps until it got too hot (greasy) because there wasn't enough air in it to keep the carcass shape. Over flexing the tire creates a ton of heat (same reason most car/truck/trailer tires blow out, a leak in the tire causes PSI to drop, creates heat, goes boom), tire got outside its temperature operating range. Didn't even have to get off my Zuma.

Thanks for the education!

 

[buzz-06]

Does anyone know if there is a guide / book / master document regarding everything motorcycle racing slicks or is it something you can only learn by track time on them? Reading some of the things that the experienced guys say here is pretty wild and quite a bit to keep track of. For example @DZ_714's post about those SCX's for sale and how he just knows this stuff is pretty crazy. Cold tears, hot tears, heat cycles.. etc.. I know the list gets bigger. I'm a big reader and it would be nice to have something to reference as I start my racing slick journey. All i can do right now is pick up tiny little tidbits of info across the internet and hope the sources are credible.

Pick a tire brand you like with a vendor you trust and direct your questions to him/her. If you must ask for help from other riders be sure to ask these questions to someone you trust. There is a lot of misinformation out there including what was posted in the other thread.

To clear the air on something, a tire will heat up and generate grip at almost any speed. You can ride any slick at any pace and as long as you’re being consistent that tire will provide grip. I’ve been at this a long time and ridden race tires in every single group. The problems come in when you’re riding a consistent novice/intermediate pace and then suddenly wick it up for a corner and ask for more traction than what it’s currently providing.

Tires are not complicated, you set pressures and you ride. 99.9% of the time tire issues are related to improper tire pressure or improper compound choice.

Unless you’re running a qualifying tire, heat cycles are a myth. A tire loses grip because it’s getting used and worn down, not because you have made it hot and cold to many times. Back in 2009 when I first got into this I used a set of dunlop UK DOT race tires for both street and track riding. I was slow and probably heat cycled those tires 20 times between street rides every week and how ever many trackdays I did on them and they never had issues.

So again, there is lots of misinformation out there. I’m not saying I’m the fountain of knowledge but I can tell you that you need to be careful who you’re getting your information from.

 

[NothingClever]

There is a lot of misinformation out there including what was posted in the other thread.

Could you please provide a link to the other thread you’re referring to?

Back in 2009 when I first got into this I used a set of dunlop UK DOT race tires for both street and track riding. I was slow and probably heat cycled those tires 20 times between street rides every week and how ever many trackdays I did on them and they never had issues.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re using an observation from 15 years ago when you first started track riding to assert that heat cycling is a myth.

So, would you heat cycle a set of slicks 20 times in the current day?

I know I wouldn’t. I will have either worn out those tires OR cooked off the tackiness of the compound and noticeably changed (hardened) the durometer of the tire.

Respectfully, I don’t agree with your outlook that heat cycling is a myth and think that it would be unhelpful if Novice or Intermediate riders were to walk away thinking this way.

I think the sheer number of A Group riders, amateur and professional racers out there who DO pay attention to heat cycling puts you in a pretty small pool.

 

[DZ_714]

Pick a tire brand you like with a vendor you trust and direct your questions to him/her. If you must ask for help from other riders be sure to ask these questions to someone you trust. There is a lot of misinformation out there including what was posted in the other thread.

To clear the air on something, a tire will heat up and generate grip at almost any speed. You can ride any slick at any pace and as long as you’re being consistent that tire will provide grip. I’ve been at this a long time and ridden race tires in every single group. The problems come in when you’re riding a consistent novice/intermediate pace and then suddenly wick it up for a corner and ask for more traction than what it’s currently providing.

Tires are not complicated, you set pressures and you ride. 99.9% of the time tire issues are related to improper tire pressure or improper compound choice.

Unless you’re running a qualifying tire, heat cycles are a myth. A tire loses grip because it’s getting used and worn down, not because you have made it hot and cold to many times. Back in 2009 when I first got into this I used a set of dunlop UK DOT race tires for both street and track riding. I was slow and probably heat cycled those tires 20 times between street rides every week and how ever many trackdays I did on them and they never had issues.

So again, there is lots of misinformation out there. I’m not saying I’m the fountain of knowledge but I can tell you that you need to be careful who you’re getting your information from.

Pick a tire brand you like with a vendor you trust and direct your questions to him/her. If you must ask for help from other riders be sure to ask these questions to someone you trust. There is a lot of misinformation out there including what was posted in the other thread.

To clear the air on something, a tire will heat up and generate grip at almost any speed. You can ride any slick at any pace and as long as you’re being consistent that tire will provide grip. I’ve been at this a long time and ridden race tires in every single group. The problems come in when you’re riding a consistent novice/intermediate pace and then suddenly wick it up for a corner and ask for more traction than what it’s currently providing.

Tires are not complicated, you set pressures and you ride. 99.9% of the time tire issues are related to improper tire pressure or improper compound choice.

Unless you’re running a qualifying tire, heat cycles are a myth. A tire loses grip because it’s getting used and worn down, not because you have made it hot and cold to many times. Back in 2009 when I first got into this I used a set of dunlop UK DOT race tires for both street and track riding. I was slow and probably heat cycled those tires 20 times between street rides every week and how ever many trackdays I did on them and they never had issues.

So again, there is lots of misinformation out there. I’m not saying I’m the fountain of knowledge but I can tell you that you need to be careful who you’re getting your information from.

Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to put a SCX on a warmer and then have a rider with novice/intermediate pace go out on it?

Are you also suggesting that this wsbk tire originally designed for quali or 10 lap race will respond well to multiple heat cycles?

Curious to hear your opinion.

 

[buzz-06]

Could you please provide a link to the other thread you’re referring to?



If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re using an observation from 15 years ago when you first started track riding to assert that heat cycling is a myth.

So, would you heat cycle a set of slicks 20 times in the current day?

I know I wouldn’t. I will have either worn out those tires OR cooked off the tackiness of the compound and noticeably changed (hardened) the durometer of the tire.

Respectfully, I don’t agree with your outlook that heat cycling is a myth and think that it would be unhelpful if Novice or Intermediate riders were to walk away thinking this way.

I think the sheer number of A Group riders, amateur and professional racers out there who DO pay attention to heat cycling puts you in a pretty small pool.

I can’t, I will have worn the tires out long before then, same as yourself. Tire technology has only gotten better in those 15 years, so if myself as a novice could do it then, I’m sure it could be done now.

 

[buzz-06]

Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to put a SCX on a warmer and then have a rider with novice/intermediate pace go out on it?

Are you also suggesting that this wsbk tire originally designed for quali or 10 lap race will respond well to multiple heat cycles?

Curious to hear your opinion.

100%, I literally have been doing this all season. My friend does 2 sprints on an X and then gives it to me to use for trackdays. I just got back into track riding after being away since 2017 and had to start off in I group and have had 0 issues.

Last weekend at summit I did a sprint race on an SCQ that was heated up a year ago and had a 7 lap sprint put on it doing 12’s…. I had that tire mounted up Saturday and did 18’s the entire sprint race and had the best rear grip I’ve ever experienced.

 

[Otto Man]

100%, I literally have been doing this all season. My friend does 2 sprints on an X and then gives it to me to use for trackdays. I just got back into track riding after being away since 2017 and had to start off in I group and have had 0 issues.

Last weekend at summit I did a sprint race on an SCQ that was heated up a year ago and had a 7 lap sprint put on it doing 12’s…. I had that tire mounted up Saturday and did 18’s the entire sprint race and had the best rear grip I’ve ever experienced.

If you're only doing 18's you're not asking enough from the rear tire to notice the loss of grip from a heat cycled SCQ/X/0.

 

[rpm894]

Pick a tire brand you like with a vendor you trust and direct your questions to him/her. If you must ask for help from other riders be sure to ask these questions to someone you trust. There is a lot of misinformation out there including what was posted in the other thread.

To clear the air on something, a tire will heat up and generate grip at almost any speed. You can ride any slick at any pace and as long as you’re being consistent that tire will provide grip. I’ve been at this a long time and ridden race tires in every single group. The problems come in when you’re riding a consistent novice/intermediate pace and then suddenly wick it up for a corner and ask for more traction than what it’s currently providing.

Tires are not complicated, you set pressures and you ride. 99.9% of the time tire issues are related to improper tire pressure or improper compound choice.

Unless you’re running a qualifying tire, heat cycles are a myth. A tire loses grip because it’s getting used and worn down, not because you have made it hot and cold to many times. Back in 2009 when I first got into this I used a set of dunlop UK DOT race tires for both street and track riding. I was slow and probably heat cycled those tires 20 times between street rides every week and how ever many trackdays I did on them and they never had issues.

So again, there is lots of misinformation out there. I’m not saying I’m the fountain of knowledge but I can tell you that you need to be careful who you’re getting your information from.

When having this much to say about tires, you should really lead with “I have yellow plates on a 1000.”

 

[The B Team]

Does anyone know if there is a guide / book / master document regarding everything motorcycle racing slicks or is it something you can only learn by track time on them? Reading some of the things that the experienced guys say here is pretty wild and quite a bit to keep track of. For example @DZ_714's post about those SCX's for sale and how he just knows this stuff is pretty crazy. Cold tears, hot tears, heat cycles.. etc.. I know the list gets bigger. I'm a big reader and it would be nice to have something to reference as I start my racing slick journey. All i can do right now is pick up tiny little tidbits of info across the internet and hope the sources are credible.

If you haven't read this yet, it's a good resource to keep handy.

Race Track Motorcycle Tyre Wear Guide - Types and Causes

In this guide I go over some of the most common types of motorcycle tyre wear to help you diagnose what your problem might be. Learn about the different types of tyre wear so you are better equipped to sort out a tyre wear problem when it arises.

lifeatlean.com

 

[domarena33]

If you're only doing 18's you're not asking enough from the rear tire to notice the loss of grip from a heat cycled SCQ/X/0.

I understand that these are WSBK qualifying tires and it seems like one could infer that you ought be really fast to see any changes in performance. contrary to this, would a novice racer benefit from starting on a hard compound tire? or is track temp and surface grade more still more important than pace when talking about compounds?

 

[Otto Man]

I understand that these are WSBK qualifying tires and it seems like one could infer that you ought be really fast to see any changes in performance. contrary to this, would a novice racer benefit from starting on a hard compound tire? or is track temp and surface grade more still more important than pace when talking about compounds?

TL;DR - Tire compounds by group:

Novice: SC3's
Intermediate/Advanced: SC3's, SC2's, or SC1's.


I am not an official Pirelli rep but have been running them for 10 years, so take this for what it's worth. I'll also try to keep this short and just hit wave tops.

Rear tires:
Q - The Qualifying tire and designed for a single heat cycle. These lose grip over several laps. If you're not within ~2-3 seconds of the lap record, a total waste of money.
X - A sprint tire. If you're not within ~5 seconds of the lap record of the class of bike you're riding, you're wasting your money with this.
SC0 - The workhorse of a sprint tire. "Good" for 2 heat cycles (initial use and second use). If you don't pass the majority of Advanced group when you ride, you're not using the full capability of the 0 compared to the 1. They do not have the grip on the second heat cycle as they do when they are new. 3 or more heat cycles...godspeed.
SC1 - The workhorse of Intermediate, Advanced, Novice racers, and Expert racers. If you don't know what compound to use, use the SC1, set it to 26PSI, and go from there. Shouldn't have to adjust pressure more than 2PSI either direction of 26, but track/conditions/bike setup dictate. The SC1 will wear out before they heat cycle out.
SC2 - A good fit for all Advanced/Intermediate riders.

Front:
There is no outright grip difference between a SC1 and SC2, it's all feel based. Try both. Heavy brakers typically prefer the SC2 front as it provides more stability under braking/trail braking. The SC1 is way too squishy feeling for me. I tried going up to 46PSI in one and it still felt like dog shit to me. Put a takeoff SC2 front and it felt 100x better. Lots of lap record holders (Jason Farrell, Stefano Mesa, etc) have many lap records on a SC2 front/SC0 combo. Take it for what its worth.

SC3's: Good if you don't have warmers, if you already have them, just sport SC2's front and rear. SC3's are good if you don't have warmers, otherwise just run the 2's. I would never advise to run SC2's or softer without warmers. They have a wide operating range (AKA, average Intermediate rider can keep enough heat in them to be safe), but you still need heat. Novice group = SC3's. SC3's will run mid-pack Advanced group pace all day long.

Temperature: A big factor. In many instances, a softer SC1 will provide better wear than a SC2. So a harder tire does not always equate to longer life. Way too many variables to try and cover here. As usual, situation dictates, and as DZ eluded to, the more you do the sport, the more you learn and go from there.

Have done plenty of coaching days on my take off race tires, and have torn up/destroyed many SC0's coaching Intermediate because I wasn't going fast enough to keep heat in them, and cold tore the shit out of them. Of course, if I was using them in July at Roebling instead of something like PittRace in May, that situation, they probably would have been fine. But that just goes back to what I said before - situation dictates.

 

[rpm894]

I understand that these are WSBK qualifying tires and it seems like one could infer that you ought be really fast to see any changes in performance. contrary to this, would a novice racer benefit from starting on a hard compound tire? or is track temp and surface grade more still more important than pace when talking about compounds?

My opinion as a novice racing a 600 using Dunlops.

I have found the Dunlop R7, which is the ”medium” compound, to be easier to get right than the other compounds. By get right, I mean not tear for the given track surface, temperature, pressure, pace. And they normally last longer for me than a R5. So I use the R7 as my go to tire for trackdays.

I don’t care about longevity for racing, so I use the R5. If there are conditions where a R7 is better than the R5, I’m not good enough to know, so I just go with the R5. Maybe the softer R3 would be even better, but the R5 is not the thing holding me back. By a 4th race, I can feel that it‘s not as good as it was, but they are normally good enough to still use at a trackday.

For the front, I always just use the extra soft R3 because they last at least 2-3 rear tires. I want to change the front by then regardless of wear because I can’t feel when a front is going off. Rather play it safe. But I might rethink this soon because I’m noticing the front wear a lot more as I’m getting faster.

So, I’d say you can’t go wrong starting on the R7 rear / R3 front and then trying other compounds to see how it works for you. All you have to lose is a $450 set of tires. But you will lose so many of those either way…

 

[DZ_714]

100%, I literally have been doing this all season. My friend does 2 sprints on an X and then gives it to me to use for trackdays. I just got back into track riding after being away since 2017 and had to start off in I group and have had 0 issues.

Last weekend at summit I did a sprint race on an SCQ that was heated up a year ago and had a 7 lap sprint put on it doing 12’s…. I had that tire mounted up Saturday and did 18’s the entire sprint race and had the best rear grip I’ve ever experienced.

When having this much to say about tires, you should really lead with “I have yellow plates on a 1000.”

Gaddam

 

[buzz-06]

When having this much to say about tires, you should really lead with “I have yellow plates on a 1000.”

Go ahead and elaborate.

 

[buzz-06]

If you're only doing 18's you're not asking enough from the rear tire to notice the loss of grip from a heat cycled SCQ/X/0.

I won’t argue that point, I’m 100% not asking for everything that tire is capable of. But that tire also worked perfectly fine for what I asked of it for 7 laps. Based on the theory of it’s only good for speed X that tire should have thrown me on the ground.

I’m not trying to start a war amongst the group over tires, simply stating that thoughts and theory’s on tires have been the same old song and dance for a very long time while things have changed. Dunlop openly states their tires do not suffer from heat cycling, https://www.dunlopracing.com/faq/
They gladly posted a thread further down this page years ago regarding using tires at a slower pace that everyone can go read.

This is my first year on Pirelli and so far I’ve not experienced any poor performance from the stack of take off’s I was given. Sure 18’s isn’t Mesa speed but it’s not to shabby for 7yrs off the bike either.

So with all that being said, keep the pitchforks coming…

 

[Otto Man]

I won’t argue that point, I’m 100% not asking for everything that tire is capable of. But that tire also worked perfectly fine for what I asked of it for 7 laps. Based on the theory of it’s only good for speed X that tire should have thrown me on the ground.

I’m not trying to start a war amongst the group over tires, simply stating that thoughts and theory’s on tires have been the same old song and dance for a very long time while things have changed. Dunlop openly states their tires do not suffer from heat cycling, https://www.dunlopracing.com/faq/
They gladly posted a thread further down this page years ago regarding using tires at a slower pace that everyone can go read.

This is my first year on Pirelli and so far I’ve not experienced any poor performance from the stack of take off’s I was given. Sure 18’s isn’t Mesa speed but it’s not to shabby for 7yrs off the bike either.

So with all that being said, keep the pitchforks coming…

Much of this topic is predicated on pace and expectations. Years ago I used to think fast racers were trying to big dick me and mention lap times in the discussions, as kind of the "I'm faster than you, therefore I know better". Looking back, a few were douchy, but most of them weren't, and just speaking very matter of fact.

Lap times are the only real reference point to base this stuff off of in this sport once in you're in Advanced group. Novice and Intermediate group is pretty easy to be honest, and damn near any sport bike tire on the market will handle those paces, so they don't warrant much discussion with this particular topic. When you use lap times as a reference, it tells another rider (or your mechanic, suspension guy, etc) how much you're pushing the bike, as it's obviously not possible to run a given pace without pushing the bike to a certain degree. If you're running 18's, I already know you know what an apex is, you're not coasting too terribly bad into corner entries, and doing alright on corner exit.

In terms of tires, asking 18's from a rear tire on a 1000 ain't much at Summit. With the same rider, a 1000 is worth about 2 seconds over a 600 at Summit. So if you were riding a 600, your pace equivalent would be 20's. That's decent track day pace, but not much to talk about if you're talking race pace. An SC3 on a 600 will do 20's all damn day without slipping (well, until it wore out).

My scientific theory is already displayed in your posts.

1) Your buddy gave you those take offs. If they were so good to race on still, why did he give them to you?
2) I'm betting he's faster than you, therefore, benefits from the extra grip of having a new tire
3) Yes, that tire is only good for X pace. Your friend is there, and you aren't, hence why you didn't have any issues with it.
4) You asked for 7 laps from that tire. Why isn't it still on your bike? Tires don't heat cycle, remember? Your words.