Red Flags

[cumberlandjack]

It seems like there were a lot of red flags in Novice group this weekend at Road Atlanta. I rode in all but one session and about 75% of them were red flagged, including the one I sat out. What's the deal? Are people riding beyond their limits? Maybe we should all put Huey's advice at the rider's meeting to use and ride at 80%. I show up to ride faster/safer. I also show up to ride my full sessions.

 

[Thunderace]

From the pictures I saw from the rider's meeting, the grids were FULL! I was not there this weekend, but from my experience over the last 14 seasons riding, here is what typically happens. I tend to see more crashes because people get anxious and rush things. With that many riders, you are going to have lots of bunching up behind the slower riders. The faster riders get impatient and begin to take chances they wouldn't normally and overstep their skill level.

This could be completely off and there was another cause, but I've been at enough track days where this has happened.

 

[Otto Man]

It seems like there were a lot of red flags in Novice group this weekend at Road Atlanta. I rode in all but one session and about 75% of them were red flagged, including the one I sat out. What's the deal? Are people riding beyond their limits? Maybe we should all put Huey's advice at the rider's meeting to use and ride at 80%. I show up to ride faster/safer. I also show up to ride my full sessions.

I don't like to say this, but sadly most of the time that is quite normal. First weekend of the year for many people, first time on their bike. They go out and try to pick up right where they left off from the last TD of last year. Add that to what Big Gim said, and you get a recipe for disaster. It is unfortunate for everyone involved. It sucks to be the guy that crashed, as nobody wants to crash on the first weekend of the year. It sucks for everyone else because now they have less track time as everyone else is forced to go back and sit on grid as the bike/rider get picked up.

It's going to be a long, good season people. Don't try breaking your PB on the first weekend of the year.

 

[RyanJG]

Being in the novice group and this being my first time on the track I noticed a couple things. Passing in the corners being one of them. There was a wreck coming off the front straight that involved 2 riders and I watched it happen. I was behind a rider that lost it going into that first turn, the other rider passed me entering the turn and followed that guy straight off the track. I had a blast either way. Hope everyone that went down was ok.

 

[cumberlandjack]

Everyone that went down is not ok. One rider got wrecked and now has a broken finger and broken collarbone along with a concussion. All due tosomeone riding irresponsibly. I would be pissed off if someone ruined my weekend that way.

 

[wmhjr]

All good points.

One thing that stood out to me this past weekend, and I only rode on Saturday due to coming down to a friggin stomach bug Saturday night that kept me off the bike on Sunday.....

I don't think I could possible count the number of people directly asking for bumps from Novice in each and every session. Like probably 5 or 6 people in every single session. People were paying way more attention to getting bumped out of Novice on their very first day of the year (for many) than they were about paying attention to the riders meeting and what was going on around them. Way too much emphasis on speed - and way too little attention on making good decisions. The CRs were working at trying to keep things good, but like Jim said, between full grids, first day for many this season, first day with N2 for a lot, and a fast track - it was definitely not easy. The track has to have something to do with it, because last week at NCBike, there was only a fraction of the amount of improper passes, riders blowing by CRs without a wave by, etc. And the track there was even more congested.

It wasn't all bad though. For all the guys riding a bit over their head and making bad decisions, there were far more people doing really well. A guy on a ZX10R got bumped late in the day, and his decisions about where NOT to pass were exactly what confirmed the bump. It's too bad we can't have "good vs bad" video examples for the Novice class in the AM to show exactly what to do, and what not to do. I'll also say that while this past weekend was IMHO a great weekend - albeit with opportunities for improvement like any other, the Novice sessions weren't exactly typical of an average weekend. I didn't do any I sessions so I'm not sure how they were other than just watching some, and the A sessions were pretty typical.

 

[Otto Man]

Going with this topic, I challenge all riders (regardless of group) to bring it to the attention of a staff member if they see people not abiding by the group rules or riding in an obviously unsafe manner. You are not snitching, you are not singling anyone out. Don't feel like you're throwing that person under the bus. We will not sit someone out unless one of us witnesses it first hand. But we only have so many sets of eyes out there on track. By you letting us know if a particular individual is riding like a jackass, we could very well prevent some of these crashes if we have the chance to talk (or observe) the rider before anything happens.

 

[CBRtist]

Hi Jack! Since I've met you personally, I get your vibe and your concerns. Safety and comfort, especially for new members and beginners is important to me also. I'm THE biggest whistleblower if I see anything or anybody that hinders this when I can (so I'm not always the fan favorite). I was in NJ, but I've ridden RA. It's not an easy track for beginners IMO, so that's one variable. But many variables play into any given track day and it's many moving parts for staff to manage. Regardless, we are one of the safest organizations and have the track record to prove it.

John brought a good point. Attentiveness during riders meeting and especially attendance for ALL riders (after all, they ARE mandatory I believe?), is a good starting point for the day. Then you throw in a packed track, nerves, egos... and my biggest one LACK OF SLEEP, then it turns into a whole other ball of wax. I'm sure a lot of people traveled great distances and because of travel, and other reasons, skimp on sleep. Never made sense to me since obviously sleep deprivation contributes to impaired motor and cognitive skills... both of which you heavily rely upon at the track, and with the adrenaline sapping away whatever is left in your reserve tank... it all adds up to a disaster waiting to happen. But we as an organization can't go around and tell people what time to go to bed, pay attention, hydrate, etc. As adults, we *should* be and act responsibly.

But as he also pointed out, I think there is a tendency to maximize the minimum when it comes to the negatives (red flags, etc.). When you factor in ALL the variables, statistically, we still come out on top in safety.

Bottom line: Staff does their best to CONTROL what they can, and for whom they can't... those individuals need to make right choices for the benefit of others and play nice.

 

[cumberlandjack]

Thanks Wendy! I was just going to say, egos get involved. Is it That bad to be in N group? Therewe're obviously some riders that should and probably did get bumped. Others need to learn respect and not try and prove they are bad asses at the expense of others. I know the CRs have therhands full. How can anyone unknowingly pass a CR?!!!

 

[Otto Man]

How can anyone unknowingly pass a CR?!!!

Happens all the time. Overall, percentage wise (number of riders total compared to those that pass) it's low, but on average it happens to me at least once every other weekend. One particular case I remember well was he passed me on the right going into T1 at Summit, and I had only left about 1.5 bike widths between me and the edge of the right side of the track in an effort to give the rest of the riders the rest of the track. He was danger close to taking us both out since I was in the process of turning around as he did it. We had words after that stunt.

I can promise anyone that the quickest way to not get bumped is to ride like a jackass and not adhere to the group rules. If you are fast, it is blatantly obvious when you back off your pace to not make a bad pass or adhere to the group rules. No CR would ever say "Well you were going to get bumped, but you slowed down because you were following the rules and then you went too slow."

I was working with another individual at Summit when that happened and he was riding great, but not as fast as the guy that passed me on the right. The guy I was working with got bumped, the rule breaker proceeded to high side his brains out the next session and he went home early.

When you're first getting into this sport, your ego will get you in trouble faster and more often than worn out tires, bad suspension, or bad bike setup ever will.

 

[CBRtist]

Is it That bad to be in N group?

Oh God no... and I was trying to say quite the opposite in my post. There's a reason why I only ride with N2.

Best thing to do to keep things safe is be a whistleblower like me lol. But this has to happen when it happens AT the event. Not much can be done after the fact when posted in the forum. Members should bring any incident to a director or staff member's attention. Their eyes and ears can't be everywhere.

However, I hope some the offenders are reading this and learning how their actions affect other members' experiences negatively.

I actually like riding down South. Everyone seems so polite and apologetic from what I've witnessed. So I'm truly sorry you had a lesser experience at one of our events.

 

[cumberlandjack]

Don't worry Wendy. I went right to the track marshal after one instance and then to a CR. My problem was not getting a bike number. I really like N2 and their close ties with YCRS. I am already looking forward to my next TD. I have to get my new leathers broken in!

 

[2blueyam]

Two things to add here as a 10 year veteran of track days, but never been to RA.

With bike numbers on the front only it can be hard for riders to get since we are not supposed to be looking back.

Second, for every time I saw a pack 3-4 wide in front of me and said, time to chill instead of making it 4-5 wide coming into a corner, it seems like about 20% of the time someone would just come up inside me and do just that. 95% of the time everyone got through ok. Sometimes they would manage to not officially break any rules other times not. It just doesn't seem to be worth the risk to me. I have a family and a job to go back to. Crashing sucks, and crashing someone else because I couldn't wait a couple of corners would make me feel even worse.

 

[cumberlandjack]

My thoughts exactly. Don't screw up my life just to prove you can pass me. I see the same type of behavior on the interstate

 

[Motofun352]

Two things to add here as a 10 year veteran of track days, but never been to RA.

With bike numbers on the front only it can be hard for riders to get since we are not supposed to be looking back.

Second, for every time I saw a pack 3-4 wide in front of me and said, time to chill instead of making it 4-5 wide coming into a corner, it seems like about 20% of the time someone would just come up inside me and do just that. 95% of the time everyone got through ok. Sometimes they would manage to not officially break any rules other times not. It just doesn't seem to be worth the risk to me. I have a family and a job to go back to. Crashing sucks, and crashing someone else because I couldn't wait a couple of corners would make me feel even worse.

This is the reason we talk about going through pit lane in order to get away from the "jam". I know it seems counter intuitive, but once I learned this "skill" it made both the N and I group riding much better. Try it once and you'll see. It's very common to have all 30 or 40 bikes on half the track and the other half unoccupied....

 

[Greg ZX6R]

That's so true, as I've sat on the bleachers enough times at Thunderbolt and timed the gap between "the train" in N group and the next group of riders. I think there was between a 20 and 30 second gap of just empty track, on multiple occasions.

 

[CBRtist]

This is the reason we talk about going through pit lane in order to get away from the "jam". I know it seems counter intuitive, but once I learned this "skill" it made both the N and I group riding much better.

It is. I think for most novice riders it's a "safety in numbers" mentality, when nothing is further from the truth. Some are confused or nervous regarding the pit in/out procedure and merging, so they would rather avoid it. What's even worse, stragglers will follow others thinking those people know the line, which is another misconception. They would rather follow someone that *might* know the line, than figure it out on an open track and wait for a CR to pick them up (which usually happens).

 

[Otto Man]

It is. I think for most novice riders it's a "safety in numbers" mentality, when nothing is further from the truth. Some are confused or nervous regarding the pit in/out procedure and merging, so they would rather avoid it. What's even worse, stragglers will follow others thinking those people know the line, which is another misconception. They would rather follow someone that *might* know the line, than figure it out on an open track and wait for a CR to pick them up (which usually happens).

More truth to this than I care to admit...preach Wendy!

 

[wmhjr]

I often follow others out of blind curiosity It's a big reason I sometimes follow Ron. Like, what the heck is he going to do next?

 

[wmhjr]

BTW, in a more serious note, a couple of us were exchanging texts last night about this thread. We're really not actually all that convinced that there were more red flags this past weekend in N than there normally are at RA. Faster tracks can sometimes as an unfortunate consequence deliver more red flags particularly for N/I groups for a bunch of reasons. RA is an easy track to put the shiny side down given the elevation changes, blind approaches, high speed areas and tight turns. It's easy to get out in front of your skis there. However, there were certainly far more examples of bad passing and general passing rule infractions than normal. Just to kind of make sure that people who weren't there don't get the idea that it was a crashfest.