So THATS how trail braking works!
- Thread starter ddenowh@mac.com
- Start date
physicistkev
Control Rider
Absolutely. However, if one starts braking while still vertical, the major force to overcome would be the gyroscopic effect. As you lean over more and start to turn, the exaggeration of the centrifugal force starts to be the major force you need to overcome. This is why I say you need to be leaned over already in this example. You are correct, I am just being more technical than I really need to be.
Yes.... I am nerd. :idea:
Kevin
TurnOneRacing
New Member
Thought this might be relevant to the topic... http://superbikeplanet.com/2011/Jun/110615y-y-y-y.htm
ddenowh@mac.com
New Member
Tom, that is an awesome article. It touches all the points I was trying to make in my initial post! Trail Braking is truly amazing once all these things come together at once for that AH HA moment. It took me only two sessions to gain confidence in the procedure and made a couple of my trouble spots, namely the bus-stop, a blast to attack for a change. Now lets face it, we have read a lot of things in this post the past couple days. But how do we put it to use. A corner goes by in a few hundred milliseconds! We can't be "thinking" of all that stuff while riding. I suggest that to give this a conscious try, ride the next track day without trying to change anything. Stick with all your fundamentals. But just add one thing to your thought process before entering the track. Just add the lightest of pressure on the brake lever all the way to the apex. Force yourself to do just that one thing. Let your reflexes and skill and training do the rest. You will soon realize that the bike actually LIKES to turn in and go fast through the corners! Boy that A group is going to get crowded now! 
stkr
New Member
That school is so vividly ingrained in my brain that as I was reading that, I could picture myself back in the classroom and on the track. AWESOME CLASS!!!
Scott Russell is a hoot. Nothing like getting passed by Scott, and then being drug around the track after he taps his tail to follow him. Good times.
ddenowh@mac.com
New Member
Well, I was able to put my newly discovered trail braking technique to work at BHF on Sat and Sun before July 4th to achieve a new personal best lap time of 1:21.5! I was rolling in the low 24's and now am comfortable in the low 22's. The new set of Bridgestone slicks help too! Thanks Chris Frye and Joe D from TurnOneRacing (If you hadn't figured it out yet, Joe is my son) for pulling me around a bit out there!
) for pulling me around a bit out there!
ronhix
New Member
So awesome Dave, great job out there.ddenowh@mac.com;199435 wrote: Well, I was able to put my newly discovered trail braking technique to work at BHF on Sat and Sun before July 4th to achieve a new personal best lap time of 1:21.5! I was rolling in the low 24's and now am comfortable in the low 22's. The new set of Bridgestone slicks help too! Thanks Chris Frye and Joe D from TurnOneRacing (If you hadn't figured it out yet, Joe is my son
And you are 100% correct about trailbraking. I can't imagine trying to get the bike down to the apex at speed without using the front brake.
IMHO, I think it is MORE dangerous to ride the bike without properly using the controls, that it is to properly use the controls - i.e. trailbrake.
snikwad
New Member
after this thread ive been paying closer attention to the WSBK and GP guys and i must say, YES, for sure, those guys def trail brake all damn day.
i never noticed so many fingers on brake lever, so slightly squeezed, until i read this thread and went looking.
Now i have more notes and more stuff to work on. cant wait to hit the track again, its been 10 months now.
i never noticed so many fingers on brake lever, so slightly squeezed, until i read this thread and went looking.
Now i have more notes and more stuff to work on. cant wait to hit the track again, its been 10 months now.
physicistkev
Control Rider
1, 3, 5, 9 and 10 are the easy ones. I am not yet fast enough to trail brake through 4, 7 and 8. I am not sure you could actually trail brake through 2, since I am WOT from 1 to 3? I don't really brake for 4, 7 or 8 and just slightly for 10.
My general rule is that if I have to shed speed for a corner, requiring more than just engine braking, I leave my finger on the brake and use just slight pressure to apex. Some corners, that require a lot of speed reduction, I am still hard on the brakes deep into the corner, like 1 at Main. If I need anything more than just a little pressure, then I am not going fast enough. That sounds counter intuitive, but if I can still use decent amounts of front brake in the meat of the corner, I have plenty of traction to actually make the turn. I should brake less and load the front tire for more change of direction and less reduction of speed. I generally am good on the brakes for entry into corners like 1 at Main, but I also tend to reduce my speed to much. Still trying to find my way of setting proper corner speed :banghead:
I am probably not the right guy to listen to for this. I don't use markers for much, at least not consciously, so I do most of my riding by the seat of my pants. This is most likely why I get to a pace at a track and can't really move beyond. I need to go to one of the schools or really work with someone to get some of the more technical details down. I may understand the reasons and physics behind the technical detail, but that doesn't mean I can execute them :doh:
Hope this helps
Kevin
My general rule is that if I have to shed speed for a corner, requiring more than just engine braking, I leave my finger on the brake and use just slight pressure to apex. Some corners, that require a lot of speed reduction, I am still hard on the brakes deep into the corner, like 1 at Main. If I need anything more than just a little pressure, then I am not going fast enough. That sounds counter intuitive, but if I can still use decent amounts of front brake in the meat of the corner, I have plenty of traction to actually make the turn. I should brake less and load the front tire for more change of direction and less reduction of speed. I generally am good on the brakes for entry into corners like 1 at Main, but I also tend to reduce my speed to much. Still trying to find my way of setting proper corner speed :banghead:
I am probably not the right guy to listen to for this. I don't use markers for much, at least not consciously, so I do most of my riding by the seat of my pants. This is most likely why I get to a pace at a track and can't really move beyond. I need to go to one of the schools or really work with someone to get some of the more technical details down. I may understand the reasons and physics behind the technical detail, but that doesn't mean I can execute them :doh:
Hope this helps
Kevin
Matt H
New Member
For Summit Main, turns 1 and 5 are the deep trail braking corners - really dragging the brake through to the apex. Turn 3, for me, used to be more - but with the ripples, I now try to square it off more. Turn 10 is a decent trail braker as well, just not as hard or as deep into the turn as the others for me.
yeah, turn 2 is not really a turn. It's a WOT kink. Turn 4, just check your speed going in, but it's SO FREAKIN' FAST!! lol. Turn 9 is more of a throttle check if anything - no brakes. No brakes in turns 7 or 8. Oh, and turn 6 can be a light trail brake depending on how hard you charge out of turn 5 - just some trail brake to steer the bike if charging.
That's my approach....
physicistkev
Control Rider
What I am referencing is traction. I am still trail braking to get the advantage of shorting the wheel base and putting more weight on the front tire. However, if I am trying to shed speed deep in a corner, ie. applying more brake than is necessary for just trail braking, then I am using a portion of the traction of the front tire to shed speed and the rest is going to changing direction. I should be able to let off of the brake so that I am only applying trail braking effort and use more of the traction of the front tire for changing direction.
My statement is really about understanding how much traction the front tire really has. If you are leaned over nearing apex and you are still applying braking beyond trail braking levels, there is a good chance that you may not need to shed as much speed as you think.
This is the adage of "don't panic, just lean in and turn". Meaning that you and the bike are capable of making the corner and applying heavy breaking to shed speed mid corner is not the best thing to do. You should put all the effort into turning the bike as you are more likely to make the corner this way.
This sounds right in my head, but I am having a tough time articulating it.
snikwad
New Member
YEAAAH!!! thank you.
those are the ones i was thinking but wasnt sure about T4, 6 and 10.
i do recall trail braking a lot into T5 and a little less in T1 when i think of my last time there and trying to chase Morph. the good ole days. Never really thought of 10 much for a trail brake corner, i kinda try to treat it like 9, but i can see how it would help setup for a good exit.
thanks guys. my notes are coming along well. cant wait.
Matt H
New Member
Turns 9 and 10 are completely different. Turn 9 you are just maybe checking your speed and setting the front as you flop from side to side and are accelerating all the way out of turn 6/7 up to.........turn 10, which is a turn that you need to brake and drop a gear or two and turn the bike in.
snikwad
New Member
^ see, iwas blown away by how the CR that was towing me, was at the marshall by the time i got out of T10. I remember braking too much going in there, and towards the end of the day i remember just letting up a little, not downshift and going into it. I guess i was not at that level where i needed to brake for T10.
That or my memory is messed up, but i just dont remember braking much for it, def didnt trail going into it.
That or my memory is messed up, but i just dont remember braking much for it, def didnt trail going into it.
physicistkev
Control Rider
On the zx6 turn 10 for me is a downshift from 4th to 3rd and just light pressure on the front brake. Just enough to put some weight on the front tire, not really trying to slow down.
I can see that for me to get quicker through 10, I am going to have to go further under the bridge and actually use some front brake. Not rely so much on engine braking, really try to compress the distance that I shed speed. Treat it more like 1, where you shed a ton of speed over the shortest distance as close as you dare to the corner, but shedding a few miles an hour, not 100.
KH
I can see that for me to get quicker through 10, I am going to have to go further under the bridge and actually use some front brake. Not rely so much on engine braking, really try to compress the distance that I shed speed. Treat it more like 1, where you shed a ton of speed over the shortest distance as close as you dare to the corner, but shedding a few miles an hour, not 100.
KH