Street tires on the track

[jesse v]

Tire gurus,
Last summer was my first season doing track days. (I've never done an event with NESBA, as I live in South Dakota, but I love this forum. My local track org is TrackAddix.) My bike is an SV1000 and I ran Bridgestone S20's the whole season. My theory in running a street-oriented multicompound tire was that it should yield better life, but with some performance compromises. Being a beginner, I was OK with that. However, I found that I only got 2 or 2.5 days out of a rear before it was down to the wear bars on the sides, which wasn't as long as I was expecting for street tires.

My question is: Is this normal tire life expectancy? Was i wrong in expecting more life? Other folks with TrackAddix have yielded 4 or 5 days in A-group on RSV4's and the like, running BT003's, R10's, other street tires, etc.

About my setup: Stock suspension. I set the sag and damping per Dave Moss's online tutorials, using my wife as the "dummy me" (she weighs about 15 pounds more than me). I believe I was at 30mm rider sag. My body weight is 150 lbs naked. Track pressures are 32 front, 30 rear (cold), which is what Bridgestone recommends for S20's.

This is not a dedicated track bike, but I do trailer it to track days.

Tracks are Mid America Motorplex (omaha) and Motorsports Park Hastings (Hastings, NE). Some of my faster times at MAM (at my first track weekend) were in the 1:55 range. (If you're not familiar with MAM, a race pace is about 1:45 I think.)

Here are some pics of an S20 after a few sessions at Hastings:









I figure, if tire life on the track is going to be the same between street tires and track tires, should I just go with track tires? Or, is there a problem causing premature tire death that I need to be enlightened to?

Thanks for your input.

 

[moto1320]

2 or 3 days isn't bad for a liter bike. You could easily use the one in your picture for another day too. The wear bars are just for effectiveness of the siping and it doesn't look like your quite into them yet. It may just be the camera angle but it looks like that rear is pretty squared off so I'm assuming a fair bit of this tire life was used up already on the street? An A group guy will make a tire last a lot longer due to smoother input and general skill. Any liter bike with traction control, like the RSV4 you mentioned, will make a tire last even longer.

 

[DUG]

That looks much better than average, especially for a liter bike. More to your question- there are way too many variables to give you a simple answer. Tire life depends on the following, and are in no particular order.


*Tire compound (usually only comes into play on race tires)
*Tire pressure (varies greatly per tire and manufacturer, and needs to be monitored throughout the day)
*Track temperature
*Track surface
*Bike/rider weight
*Horsepower
*Suspension set-up ( I can not stress enough how important yet often overlooked this is)
*Throttle inputs (smooth vs Hail Mary; trac control DOES make a difference. This is also tied in with skill. You want to carry corner speed vs parking it in the corner then hammering it coming out. This will murder a tire)


List goes on...but you get the picture. I will say that if you're worried about tire life you have the wrong bike. 3-4 days is very good from my liter bike experience, but Im a bigger guy. On my ZX10/CBR1000 and 240lbs geared up, I would be very lucky to get 1.5 - 2 days out of a rear. On my 600s I can stretch it to 3.5. Given that is at race pace so you can expect a little better.

Lastly, tire brand doesn't really matter as long as they are track biased tires, just get use to something and stick with it. All the reputable manufactures make great tires. I have run everything, but usually stick with Dunlops or Bridgestone. Mostly because they are easily obtainable at the track, reasonably priced, and I know what Im getting. Keep in mind that as you progress tires become just as easily expendable as gas and track fees- meaning you just have to budget for them early on and you wont feel the pain.


P.S. Hondas are the most reliable, Dunlops are the fastest, and you can go 600,000 laps on one oil change as long as its Shell Rotella.... so flame away..:flipoff:

-Your MOM approved this message.

 

[jesse v]

moto1320;295772 wrote: 2 or 3 days isn't bad for a liter bike. You could easily use the one in your picture for another day too. The wear bars are just for effectiveness of the siping and it doesn't look like your quite into them yet. It may just be the camera angle but it looks like that rear is pretty squared off so I'm assuming a fair bit of this tire life was used up already on the street? An A group guy will make a tire last a lot longer due to smoother input and general skill. Any liter bike with traction control, like the RSV4 you mentioned, will make a tire last even longer.
DUG wrote: That looks much better than average, especially for a liter bike. More to your question- there are way too many variables to give you a simple answer. Tire life depends on the following, and are in no particular order.

*Tire compound (usually only comes into play on race tires)
*Tire pressure (varies greatly per tire and manufacturer, and needs to be monitored throughout the day)
*Track temperature
*Track surface
*Bike/rider weight
*Horsepower
*Suspension set-up ( I can not stress enough how important yet often overlooked this is)
*Throttle inputs (smooth vs Hail Mary; trac control DOES make a difference. This is also tied in with skill. You want to carry corner speed vs parking it in the corner then hammering it coming out. This will murder a tire)

List goes on...but you get the picture. I will say that if you're worried about tire life you have the wrong bike. 3-4 days is very good from my liter bike experience, but Im a bigger guy. On my ZX10/CBR1000 and 240lbs geared up, I would be very lucky to get 1.5 - 2 days out of a rear. On my 600s I can stretch it to 3.5. Given that is at race pace so you can expect a little better.

Thanks Moto and DUG.

No, I wasn't saying that tire was DONE, just posting pictures in case anybody wanted to see wear patterns, etc.

I never thought about faster riders being easier on tires. That makes sense. Which brings me too....

I agree that I have the wrong bike. A less powerful bike would make me better and be easier on tires. I bought it nearly 3 years ago, before I knew what track days were. But it's a fun street bike, I can't bring myself to give it up, and until I can make track days a "regular" thing, I don't think I want to invest in a track-only bike. If only my wife would let me bring her sv650 to the track... :banghead:

EDIT: I should add: I'm definitely not a screamer/parker, but I am a humble beginner. My first weekend at MAM I focused on "when in doubt, slow in, fast out", but I definitely erred TOO much on the "slow in" part, making for a park-and-gas line. As fun as it was, I now need to work on corner speed, to make me a better rider and (somewhat) conserve tires at the same time.

 

[vinny337]

jesse v;295746 wrote:
About my setup: Stock suspension. I set the sag and damping per Dave Moss's online tutorials, using my wife as the "dummy me" (she weighs about 15 pounds more than me). I believe I was at 30mm rider sag. My body weight is 150 lbs naked. Track pressures are 32 front, 30 rear (cold), which is what Bridgestone recommends for S20's.

Jesse,
Until you get the hang of it, have your suspension set up by someone that’s certified.

 

[D-Zum]

I don't see any problems with your tires. Look pretty clean (wear-wise) to me.

Maybe your expectation of tire wear life wasn't prepared for the accelerated wear that's experienced when you take them to a closed course environment.

They may indeed be wearing faster because they are street tires. You don't wear flip-flop sandals to pour concrete or run a jack hammer, do you? Sandals are for light duty casual wear...work boots are more rugged for a more taxing environment.

Same with tires...just because they're round doesn't make them all the same.

I was chewing up DOT's in 3 or 4 days...went to slicks and got 8-10 days out of a set.

 

[jesse v]

vinny337;295853 wrote: Jesse,
Until you get the hang of it, have your suspension set up by someone that’s certified.

Agreed. I recently learned there is a suspension guy at TrackAddix events, so I'll hit him up my first time out in 2014.

 

[jesse v]

D-Zum;295860 wrote: I don't see any problems with your tires. Look pretty clean (wear-wise) to me.

Maybe your expectation of tire wear life wasn't prepared for the accelerated wear that's experienced when you take them to a closed course environment.

They may indeed be wearing faster because they are street tires. You don't wear flip-flop sandals to pour concrete or run a jack hammer, do you? Sandals are for light duty casual wear...work boots are more rugged for a more taxing environment.

Same with tires...just because they're round doesn't make them all the same.

I was chewing up DOT's in 3 or 4 days...went to slicks and got 8-10 days out of a set.

I've learned 2 big things in my tire research, both here an on other forums.

1. Street tires do not last longer than track tires. I don't know why I had this assumption. I guess I thought street tires were less grippy, and therefore lasted longer.

2. DOT/race tires do not require warmers. Again, I don't know why I had this misconception.

Pending any suggestions, I think I'm gonna go with BT003RS's or Q3's for my next tires.

 

[D-Zum]

No..they do not require warmers, but they do require heat..so if you're going sans warmers, take it easy the first lap or two.

Where abouts in SD? My Mom lived in Chamberlain for about 8 years. We were all born and raised in ND.

My brother also worked at POET in Sioux Falls as their accountant/comptroller.

 

[jesse v]

I live in Sioux Falls. Sorry to hear about your ghastly childhood.

 

[jesse v]

vinny337;295853 wrote: Jesse,
Until you get the hang of it, have your suspension set up by someone that’s certified.

Yes, I intend to do that my first time out during the 2014 season. I recently learned that there is a suspension guy at TrackAddix events (the TD org closest to me), so I'm going to hit him up.

I was not under the misconception of having my suspension "dialed in". I was just making my circumstances known.

 

[ninjamansc]

jesse v;295865 wrote: I've learned 2 big things in my tire research, both here an on other forums.

1. Street tires do not last longer than track tires. I don't know why I had this assumption. I guess I thought street tires were less grippy, and therefore lasted longer.

2. DOT/race tires do not require warmers. Again, I don't know why I had this misconception.

Pending any suggestions, I think I'm gonna go with BT003RS's or Q3's for my next tires.

I have used all flavors of Bridgestone tires, with exception of the S20's. Like D-zum said, that wear is textbook awesome. Still have a set of BT003 Pro in the basement. Then I switched to Dunlop this past season (211 GPA) and was impressed enough to swear off Bstone. In my experience (emphasis on MY EXPERIENCE) all the B-stone hypersport tires are very similar. S20 is B's answer to the Q2. From what I have seen through tech and talking to those who use them, Dunlop Q3 is far and away the best track-duty street tire.

That being said, you should concentrate on suspension first. I've had an SV1000 as well, and all are notoriously under-valved. Setting sag is ok, but unless you're just sitting on it making "vroom vroom" sounds it doesn't mean squat when you're at track pace cranked over in a corner hard on the gas. While technically a "liter bike", the SV1000 twin only has about as much power as a modern 600 (but the torque is soooo much fun).

My advice (like others have said) is to find a tire you like and stick with it, then develop the bike around those tires. Tires are like running shoes. They all do the same thing, but whether through perception or reality, there are minor differences. Not being confident in your tires will mentally hinder you from riding to your potential.

 

[z064life]

D-Zum;295860 wrote: I don't see any problems with your tires. Look pretty clean (wear-wise) to me.

Maybe your expectation of tire wear life wasn't prepared for the accelerated wear that's experienced when you take them to a closed course environment.

They may indeed be wearing faster because they are street tires. You don't wear flip-flop sandals to pour concrete or run a jack hammer, do you? Sandals are for light duty casual wear...work boots are more rugged for a more taxing environment.

Same with tires...just because they're round doesn't make them all the same.

I was chewing up DOT's in 3 or 4 days...went to slicks and got 8-10 days out of a set.

Darrin,

I'm not sure I understand the whole 2x the time out of a slick vs a DOT. They are the exact same compound, how does 5% being sipes make any difference in tire life? Unless you just choose to wear a slick to the cords and not with the DOT version.

Not saying this wasn't your experience but it makes no logical sense to me at all.

 

[jesse v]

First off... Sorry Vinny, I didn't mean to re-post my response to your comment (top of page 2).

ninjamansc;295987 wrote: I have used all flavors of Bridgestone tires, with exception of the S20's. Like D-zum said, that wear is textbook awesome. Still have a set of BT003 Pro in the basement. Then I switched to Dunlop this past season (211 GPA) and was impressed enough to swear off Bstone. In my experience (emphasis on MY EXPERIENCE) all the B-stone hypersport tires are very similar. S20 is B's answer to the Q2. From what I have seen through tech and talking to those who use them, Dunlop Q3 is far and away the best track-duty street tire.

That being said, you should concentrate on suspension first. I've had an SV1000 as well, and all are notoriously under-valved. Setting sag is ok, but unless you're just sitting on it making "vroom vroom" sounds it doesn't mean squat when you're at track pace cranked over in a corner hard on the gas. While technically a "liter bike", the SV1000 twin only has about as much power as a modern 600 (but the torque is soooo much fun).

My advice (like others have said) is to find a tire you like and stick with it, then develop the bike around those tires. Tires are like running shoes. They all do the same thing, but whether through perception or reality, there are minor differences. Not being confident in your tires will mentally hinder you from riding to your potential.

Thanks for this response. It's true about the SV1k's HP... About 108 I think.

D211 GPA's aren't available in a 180 size. (I know, I know, 190 is possible... I don't want to start that debate.) So, your suggestion is sticking with BStone (BT003RS) instead of trying on "new shoes" (Dunlop Q3)? Keeping in mind this will be a street bike too.

 

[vinny337]

jesse v;295995 wrote: First off... Sorry Vinny, I didn't mean to re-post my response to your comment (top of page 2).

No worries Bro, you're on the right track for even thinking about having your suspension setup. :agree:

 

[D-Zum]

z064life;295990 wrote: Darrin,

I'm not sure I understand the whole 2x the time out of a slick vs a DOT. They are the exact same compound, how does 5% being sipes make any difference in tire life? Unless you just choose to wear a slick to the cords and not with the DOT version.

Not saying this wasn't your experience but it makes no logical sense to me at all.

I have NO idea.

Now I will say this..I switched from a Penske to an Ohlins rear shock, too..but to go from like 3 days to getting 8-10 days from a slick couldn't just be from the shock switch.

My first set of slicks was the Dunlop UK slicks, and I had over 8 days on them..with dimples stills showing. Emerson took them and used them to CR for a day or two before they were finally tossed.

 

[leanangler]

D-Zum;296001 wrote: I have NO idea.

My first set of slicks was the Dunlop UK slicks, and I had over 8 days on them..with dimples stills showing. Emerson took them and used them to CR for a day or two before they were finally tossed.

8-10 days, Obviously, you aren't going that fast then....

 

[D-Zum]

leanangler;296006 wrote: 8-10 days, Obviously, you aren't going that fast then....

That's not a big secret Buddy!

 

[z064life]

D-Zum;296001 wrote: I have NO idea.

Now I will say this..I switched from a Penske to an Ohlins rear shock, too..but to go from like 3 days to getting 8-10 days from a slick couldn't just be from the shock switch.

My first set of slicks was the Dunlop UK slicks, and I had over 8 days on them..with dimples stills showing. Emerson took them and used them to CR for a day or two before they were finally tossed.

Wait. Us dot to uk slicks?

I've heard the uk last a lot longer but are also much more expensive

 

[D-Zum]

z064life;296030 wrote: Wait. Us dot to uk slicks?

I've heard the uk last a lot longer but are also much more expensive

I got the same endurance from the US slicks as the UK slicks.