Suggestion about I group passing rules

[mlmoore]

See http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?p=20649#post20649 for my revised opinion.

Original post follows
====================
I was just reading another thread about another incident in I that appeared to be caused buy a "loose interpretation" of "inside passes".

I've been riding with NESBA since last June and in since my 2nd day and I expect to be in I for a while yet. I've noticed that almost all passing in happens on the straight and on Inside braking after the drag race to the corner. Since I'm on an SV650 I get to watch a lot of bikes go by on the straight LOL.

Why not change the rule to "no passing on the inside after you touch the brakes". A rule like this is much easier for everyone to understand than "make sure you complete the pass before the other guy turns in" It's not possible to know for sure when the other guy will turn in, but you know when you use the brakes.

I've seen lots of close calls caused by someone thinking they can out brake the other rider on the inside and beat them at the last minute. Most of us in probably aren't qualified to make that judgment yet or we would be in . I've had many people on 600s or 1000s do it to me, which makes no sense at all. All they have to do to pass me is take the corner a little wide, square it off and when I stand it up out of the corner just blast past like I'm standing still. It really kills my momentum when someone pulls inside and parks in the corner since I don't have the horsepower to recover quickly. I've passed lots of these faster bikes back on the outside of the turn since many don't carry the corner speed.

Just my opinion and thought the fall is a good time to discuss possible rule changes.

Thanks for your attention.

 

[DeltaHotel]

I think the point of preventing passing on the inside of corners is to minimize the potential that a rider will take out another rider on corner entry or during execution of cornering. By further restricting passing on the brakes, it may well end up being safer, but I think it would end up being unnecessarily restrictive (and a restriction that may be far more difficult to police/enforce).

And you're right, it's not always easy to judge whether you can make it by clean before the rider ahead begins turn-in. So if you're not sure, and you ride in , then don't make the pass. Wait and follow/observe the rider a bit until you are sure. And if you cannot be sure, well... then just don't make the pass... wait for a more open section of track beyond the corner. Or hot-pit and gain some space.

I really don't think the problem is that riders don't understand the rule, as it stands. I think instead riders get a bit carried away and just make poor judgements. Or they intentionally bend the rule thinking it can be done safely. And in either case, amending the rule as you describe may not offer a remedy. :dunno:

 

[EngineNoO9]

Outside is hard to do especially if the rider is quick and uses most of the track. Sometimes it's easier to out brake and then go into the turn. Biggest issue is people pushing the edge of what's questionable with that and do it right about when the other guy turns in. I was told at Summit they actually sat a few people down. I know I had someone pass me completely on the inside yesterday but for the most part the other passes were fine.

 

[lemondrop]

I know I am a lowly however, when i rode with penguin down in Homestead, they allowed passing on the outside towards the end of the day...and i actually found it more exciting and increased my skill/concentration to follow a rider until I knew i could get by him round a corner.....felt more accomplished than just WOT on the straight and lay down a strip while parking it into the corner....

just IMO opcorn:

that said..i am still slow

 

[dlockhart5x]

Hey Mike, just take the braking duel and then lean on them a bit if they insist on taking the inside line. I lived on outside passes in I group and Wink kept telling me just push them out of the way. There is armor in your elbows for a reason
Even the nicest, sweetest CR in the midwest, Carol Drucker told me I'd have to learn a lot about defensive lines riding the 250.
:haha:Or as Marshall Skloss is famous for not saying, "stand them up if have to" LOL

:notsure: Really, one of the best bits of advise I got was to never contest a pass. It is a track day, get them back in the next corner.

 

[Meat]

mlmoore,

I am with everyone else on this one. There is a wide variety of skill levels in the I group and I am a very late trail braker. If you take away passing under braking, then there would be very little passing in I group. I love to pass on the outside of a turn, but often the guy on the inside wants to use the entire track and I can end up getting pinched off (which of course is my responsibility to slow down and let him take his line....if he really doesn't want to let me by).

I honestly don't mind being passed on the inside if it is done in a controlled manner and doesn't stuff me. I haven't once gotten mad at anyone for passing me on the inside of the I group only because the passes were safe and I did not have to make any major changes.

That being said, to my knowledge I have never passed anyone on the inside...unless it is on corner exit where the bike is being stood up, which is totally legal in I for some track orgs.

 

[Folly1]

I think Mike makes a good point.

There are less bad passes now in "I" with the no tolerance policy, but there are still some and some result in crashes. I try to apex a little later, and even then will have to change my line to avoid someone who is diving to the inside. This is someone who missed judged the braking distance. This happens about once a weekend, on average and is no big deal unless there is impact. It happens a lot more in the NON-NESBA groups.

The old rule as stated in the SE was to complete the pass before the first cone. This gave a good reference point but it seems that we are not using cones as often to mark the turns.

Anyway, worth talking about.

Ben.

 

[mlmoore]

Really, one of the best bits of advise I got was to never contest a pass. It is a track day, get them back in the next corner.

Dave,
I couldn't agree more with this statement. I try to live by it. Your other comments would apply more if this was a race (been there, done that, now just want to ride safely).

Meat,
You say you are a late braker and there wouldn't be much passing if you couldn't pass by late braking. I rarely pass under braking (my own choice to avoid possible problems) and do almost all my passing on the outside. I have a different view, but then we all do. Most of the bikes I pass are faster on the straights or pass me on the brakes. All I ask of anyone is that if they pass me on the straight or brakes that they don't then slow me up in the next corner. Follow me through a couple of turns and it will be obvious if we run a similar pace in the turns or if you will pull away from me. I don't mind any safe pass that lets us both carry our pace. Thanks for the comments.

Everyone. Thanks for the comments. I posted this to start a discussion on the topic, not to suggest I had the only solution (if one is even needed).

 

[Meat]

mlmoore;19995 wrote:

Meat,
You say you are a late braker and there wouldn't be much passing if you couldn't pass by late braking. I rarely pass under braking (my own choice to avoid possible problems) and do almost all my passing on the outside. I have a different view, but then we all do. Most of the bikes I pass are faster on the straights or pass me on the brakes. All I ask of anyone is that if they pass me on the straight or brakes that they don't then slow me up in the next corner. Follow me through a couple of turns and it will be obvious if we run a similar pace in the turns or if you will pull away from me. I don't mind any safe pass that lets us both carry our pace. Thanks for the comments.

I study most of the people I pass. The only people I blow by on the brakes are the slower Intermediates that are usually new to the track and are braking way too early. I am a very safe and curtious rider out there. I am a beefy guy on a 600, so I get out-powered by everyone but the sv650's. In the I group making an outside pass jsut is not an option much of the time as many of the I group riders use the entire track whether they need it our not. As I mentioned I love to pass on the outside. I think it is really cool to be side by side with another rider, both dragging a knee. Totally awesome and would love to make all my passes that way, but it just is not always possible.

I am often held up by other riders because I am so courteous and safe with my passing. I do utilize pit lane to get open track. So, I do not want you to confuse me with the guys late braking and slipping closely on the inside of a turn.

 

[Meat]

But I also realize you are not attacking me.

 

[mlmoore]

Meat;19997 wrote: I study most of the people I pass. The only people I blow by on the brakes are the slower Intermediates that are usually new to the track and are braking way too early. I am a very safe and curtious rider out there. I am a beefy guy on a 600, so I get out-powered by everyone but the sv650's. In the I group making an outside pass jsut is not an option much of the time as many of the I group riders use the entire track whether they need it our not. As I mentioned I love to pass on the outside. I think it is really cool to be side by side with another rider, both dragging a knee. Totally awesome and would love to make all my passes that way, but it just is not always possible.

I am often held up by other riders because I am so courteous and safe with my passing. I do utilize pit lane to get open track. So, I do not want you to confuse me with the guys late braking and slipping closely on the inside of a turn.
Meat;19997 wrote: But I also realize you are not attacking me.

Absolutely correct.

Sounds like you have everything well under control and it would be great to ride with you.

Keep up the good work.

 

[clarson]

Nothing is more beautiful than a pass done skillfully. To watch someone gracefully pass me and continue on around the track is very cool.

However, I can't tell you how many laps I did on the SV where I'd finally get around someone only to have them blow by me on a straight then park it in the turns, and generally disrupt my otherwise fine session. Ah, memories.

I'm not good enough to "dice it up" with anyone. My personal rule is that if I'm going to pass someone, I better make it "stick". If they fly around me at the next passing opportunity, then I probably shouldn't have passed them in the first place. And if I pass someone before a turn, I better be prepared to negotiate that turn at a speed that's probably faster than I might normally be comfortable with or on a line that I don't usually take.

Of course, when it comes to riding, my viewpoint is purely academic.

 

[BigKid]

Mike, like your subject BUT you happen to be at a point in your riding where you are struggling with your entery into corners. You are on an SV650. NO ONE should be able to pass you on brakes in the front of I pace. What I mean is your braking points, entery speed, corner speed should not allow anyone to get close to you in the braking zone. If you are having trouble with 1000's passing you in braking zones then you are braking too soon. Don't get me wrong, I understand the perils of riding an SV, you have no chance on straights BUT anywhere else on the track your bike has the upper hand. I just think the rider has to catch up with the other areas on the track. Don't worry, we will work on it next year.

 

[Kevmo]

man.. if i couldn't pass ppl "once the brakes are hit"... i wouldn't be passing ALOT of ppl... lol... but i do see where ur point is...

but i'll let the experts to this one

 

[FrostyFire]

If this rule was in place nobody under a 1000cc would be able to move into A group because they wouldn't be allowed show off that they can handle close passing in braking zones.

 

[Folly1]

BigKid,

What determines the cornerspeed potential of a bike, other than rider ability, of course, assuming all else is equal. Is there a factor other than weight?

Everyone writes about the great cornerspeed of SV's. Why would a 440lb 2nd gen. SV have a greater cornerspeed potential than a 440 lb. GSXR or 749. I would like to hear any informed opinions.

My own is that the SV carries more cornerspeed because the rider knows he/she has to. It's all about the Indian and not the arrow. I will be happy to learn that I am wrong but sorry that I sold my SV.

Ben.

 

[mlmoore]

I've never been very good at putting my thoughts in writing so they make sense to others the way they do to me. This thread just proves that. LOL

I'm just an average rider in "I" (at least I hope I'm average ;-) and was just expressing my opinion about what seems to cause some close calls. I've had very few issues with passes put on me. I have seen several put on others that seemed questionable. I hope am always courteous to other rider's although I'm sure I've made some moves we not as clean as they could have been. We all make mistakes in judgment or execution.

Jason, (Bigkid). Thanks for all the advice you've given me. Always helpful and to the point. Yes, I'm know I'm weak on corner entry. Mainly hard braking corners. I do much better on the corners that I don't have to brake hard for (Iowa 1,2, HPT 1,2,3). It's kind of ironic since 30 years ago I could could out brake most guys I was racing with my RD350. Now I have this fear of crashing. I think it has something to do with being 30 years older LOL. I was just starting to work on the braking a little when I locked the front at Iowa and Ouch. Now I'm back to the beginning again. I don't know when I'll get past that but I am having fun.

At Barber this weekend I intend to work on being more smooth on brakes, throttle and shifting. Also I can work on right turns at this track since there are so many. I am much more comfortable going left than right.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and Thanks to NESBA for allowing me to have more fun than I have in years.

Now I have to get some sleep so I can head to Chicago to meet the Lockharts for the trip to Barber. Can wait to see the track.
:tothetrack:

 

[BigKid]

OK, here we go. First of all, first generations SV's are closer to 400 wet in track trim than they are to 440Lbs. Can't remember exactly what stock SV's in track trim but I do have some experience with race SV's. At super bike specs you can get an SV down to 330LBS wet with mag wheels, Ti, and lots of other goodies. Back to reality, Why are 1000's slower in corners than 600's??? They weigh the same now days. Why do v-twins have and advantage in all forms of racing in corners???. This is going to take awhile.

A. the slower a bike is in the straights (up to a point, don't argue) the easier it is to brake consistently and enter a turn at the same corner speeds, consistently. Think about rushing down a straight at 170, brake for 2.??? seconds let off and try to hit XXMPH every time. One of the reasons it is recomended to start on smaller bikes is because corner speed translates into faster off corner speed which translates into faster straightaway speed, etc.

B. V-twins and other various engine config's have advantages in traction. I am not going to go into the reasons BUT I will say a v-twin can turn in easier, can get on the throttle sooner, and has better torque off corners.

C. Geometry is better on some slower bikes. Encourages front end feel, turn in, brakes, etc. Liter bikes have more rake and trail generally due to higher speed stability. Not always and those #'s are changing now days. But year by year comparisons will show most small bikes have more aggressive #'s in the front.

D. Suspension, SV's suspension sucks in stock form BUT with rear shock and front emulators or upgrades is very compliant. AND when you have less weight and horse power to control you do not need extreamly sophisticated suspension. Less work controling those items.

E. Absolute apex speed differential is not much different between most bikes. It is how you get to the apex and how you get off of it and the SV's make both easier.

 

[Meat]

Very cool. I really appreciate that detailed explanation, even though I wasn't the one that asked for it.

Now I feel better about Duc's walking away from me as I am coming out of a turn:spank:....maybe I am also too limp-wristed to apply proper power as well.

 

[Folly1]

Thanks,

Ben.