Tentative Putnam Dates Getting Smaller
- Thread starter some guy #2
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some guy #2
Member
I know (estimate) what RA and Barber are and Putnam is cheap compared to them. If I had to guess it's probably around 10k or less for a weekend at Putnam (including everything).gkotlin;226853 wrote: I laughed when I read that as well. They're always sold out and the money is rolling in right? haha
I don't think Putnam is struggling for money with all their dates they have posted.
geekmug
New Member
That begs the question of how these tracks can be booked solid for the entire year? If it was such a raw deal for the hosting organization, then these tracks wouldn't be able to rent the track to anybody because who would want to rent it. And, if anything most of the competition charge more for a single day at the same tracks NESBA had been going to in the MW, how is that possible if the days don't sell?gkotlin;226853 wrote: I laughed when I read that as well. They're always sold out and the money is rolling in right? haha
I did the STT weekend at BHF after NESBA's chili cook-off weekend, and the 2-day cost difference was ~$20* more for STT, and anybody who was there could confirm that the STT event was packed. Probably more riders than NESBA had, but still they charged more. NESBA could probably charge a premium above STT even, since there is a promise of lighter grids and a more controlled class structure for the regulars. All-in-all, with all of the other organizations springing up and taking weekends, I get the impression that maybe NESBA runs the margins a bit too thin. I like a bargain as much as the next guy, but NESBA has to keep itself in the game.
(*) Yes, I know membership fees and gate fees make it all much more complicated to compare the cost of the days.
BigCountry1125
Member
Lol, I'm still waiting for my membership nesba card!Nexus;226885 wrote: Maybe Putnum never got their membership shirts.
gkotlin
New Member
What Putnam makes is irrelevant. Remember that in the Midwest the season is half as long as it might be on other areas of the country. So they have to make a years worth of income in 6-8 months.
Road America compared to Putnam? Again, apples and oranges. I would assume Road America costs more. But you can put more bikes on a bigger track at the same time. So it's a wash? Given that you have enough customers to make it worth it. Weekday events are tough to fill up. Weekend dates would cost more I assume. So it's not a guarantee that your making money just because a smaller venue is cheaper to rent.
There's a LOT more to running and scheduling track events then meets the eye. You also need to have some sold out events to even out the events that were lightly attended.
Again, we're not even into 2012 yet. Give them time to work things out and they schedule will work itself out.
Morrand
Member
But will they? I mean, for a start, my membership is coming up for renewal soon. Am I supposed to put down my money to renew and just hope that it all works itself out by springtime?
The truth of the matter is that, at the moment, STT's marketing has NESBA's beat, by a mile or more. At least around here, they seem to have pretty well established themselves as "the track day organization," period. The fact that they evidently have more tracks and more dates locked up on a regular basis does plenty to keep that image alive. Is that the only problem? Maybe not, but if they can pack the riders in, every time, they must be doing something right.
It's not that they're the superior organization. I don't know, having never been to their events, but I don't think so. Everything I hear (from our side, admittedly) says they leave a lot to be desired in terms of operating a day. The term, "structure," keeps coming up: we possess it, where they lack it. It seems to work, and even some of their regulars that I talk to on a regular basis, who know the difference, agree that our upperclassmen are faster than theirs. This is all well and good, but it's not something we (as an organization, never mind the region) have done much to capitalize on.
The sales pitch is that we're a track day organization. It pretty much ends there. To which the rider shopping around answers: so what? There are many. What makes you worth it? Most of the regulars, I suggest, know at least two good answers: camaraderie, and quality. But I also suggest that the casual rider doesn't care much for that. The competition (for the most part) offers reasonable quality, and camaraderie isn't much of a concern when you go out for only two weekends a year. And there's a down side of structure, too. The casual rider wants to go out and have fun, and the idea of having a fairly rigid approach makes it seem like work instead. It's not like having the structure there is ultimately a problem. Far from it. My understanding--and I hope someone with knowledge can jump in and expand on this--is that STT's beginner sessions are actually quite rigidly structured: movement between sub-groups is loosely controlled, but during a session, you stay in your pack, at least during the morning, and follow one instructor the whole time. The structure leads to better learning, but it's the looseness between sessions that's attractive to many people. Again, the notion of just going out to ride, on a track, is what many people are looking for.
I won't say STT is an example for how we should work. Heaven forbid it. There's already a scent of their operation hanging around here, particularly in the changes to the membership fee structure last year and in the midday beginner's meetings. The fear I had last year about these things was that our organization had given up on finding its own way around and was playing follow-the-leader. It's not a happy sign when that happens. It usually signals something between laziness and desperation on the part of the management, and it often ends badly. If NESBA is going to continue in operation, I suggest that it needs to remain distinctly NESBA, not "that other club that also does track days," which is the road a couple of other organizations seem to have gone down, often on their way to oblivion.
And what makes it distinctly NESBA, aside from the people (which is to leave aside an enormous part of it), seems to be the quality of the riders that eventually come out of it. Never mind how many or few tracks are involved. With STT you go out and ride, but with NESBA, you go out and ride better. And that's not something that gets mentioned much, officially.
Not that a lack of tracks is irrelevant. It's kind of a key point, having tracks for people to go to. There are plenty to choose from, but just going down the list, we are very definitely weak on that point as well: of the 10 Midwest (and Mid-Central) tracks listed on our Web site, only 3 seem to be candidates to get on the calendar this year at all, hardly a creditable number for a group of our size and age. If the rumor mentioned above is true, and we really are not paying our bills on time, that is a serious problem and probably the quickest route to driving that list from three tracks to zero in a hurry. If false, the fact that the rumor exists at all is no testament to our credibility as an organization. As it is, the fact that we list tracks, like Autobahn, as "Tracks We Ride," when they've been off the calendar for a couple of years, doesn't lend the organization much credibility either.
Hence, my question: should I renew? Step back and look at it a moment. Here we have an organization that is not necessarily marketing itself very well, and that is not doing the things that make it look credible, such as committing to the schedule (remember, last year the "These Dates Are Tentative" banner stayed up the entire year, right to the end), or assuring the membership that the bills are being paid. These are not favorable signs. In fact, these are the earmarks of a dissipating organization, uncertain not only of its strengths but also of its stability. Why should anyone be confident in tying up their fortunes with this group, when it's not even confident in itself? Why should anyone put their money (or their time or their labors) into an organization that can't say, with reasonable certainty, that it will return on the investment?
I definitely will not suggest that this is an easy business, or that setting up track days, much less running them, takes no work. Just look at the acrobatics involved with getting the karts dates nailed down and paid for. It is work, hard work at that. Even harder is the task of getting people to sign up to ride on those dates. It may not have been so hard at a time when there weren't many other options out there, but it is harder now, and it's going to take deft marketing and some serious action on all sides (national to lead it, regional to run it, and membership to back it) to make it continue to work.
Greg, with respect, just saying things will work out in the end sounds an awful lot like you're fiddling while Rome burns.
cooker1
New Member
Morrand I agree with pretty much with all you said ! It is true that NESBA is way more structured than most other TD orgs out there and because of that they produce better , safer , faster riders ! I ride with other TD Orgs. out there and at the riders meeting I always here - hey there are some Nesbians riding with us today so don't feel intimidated or whatever when you get passed like you were standing still ! I myself am proud as everyone who has gotten a bump with NESBA could possibly be when I am standing in another Orgs. crowd with my NESBA shirt on !!! I know it as does every NESBIAN that we have achieved our rank whatever that may be through hard work on the track and through expert instruction . I ride with everyone I can in order to gain more experience and I have seen riders in I group that don't ride as well as some of our new B riders ! The thing is that a lot of riders think they they can ride and don't really have a clue except that they have a fast bike and go fast which is the mindset of a lot of the younger riders ! When in all actuallity they are just dangerous to themselves and others on the track ! I personally think that NESBA will be around for a looong time because I think that we attract the riders who are serious about what we do and want too learn from the best otherwise why would the other Orgs. warn their riders that we are on track !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regardless of what the org is offering, without a place to offer the superior trackday, you're SOL. I know everyone here is loyal to Nesba, but it seems like we are running out of opportunities to be loyal. 2011's schedule wasn't great, and 2012 isn't looking good. I'm not saying a schedule needs to be posted now, but we played the waiting game last year too, and that didn't really pan out.
Relic
Member
Here's the Putnam schedule. NESBA seems to have dates in April, August and September. What am I missing?
j_fuggin_t
Member
Yea and Obama said he'd change the economy for the good :haha: im waiting till the final schedule comes out.
csteger03
New Member
I'm sorry but two weekends and Blackhawk is rediculous. I paid 200 dollars for a t-shirt as of right now. I hope to see some changes. I know Blackhawk track manger Tom loves NESBA, our chili cookoff has raised thousands upon thousands to make that track a safer venue. I think it's funny in another thread people are complaining that Blackhawk is too unsafe to ride, and then the same people complain when said track is dissapearing from the schedule. :dunno:
Relic
Member
I don't meant to stir the pot any more, but questions I'd like the Midwest staff to answer are: Is NESBA in financial trouble? Is NESBA unable to rise to the task of making payments on time, and if so, is it because it's short-staffed? Before suggesting solutions, it's good to know exactly what the problem is (if indeed there is one). I know nothing is final yet, but rumors that we were shut out of Putnam in 2011 turned out to be true. Speaking of 2011, I may have missed it, but did we ever get word on exactly why we missed Putnam in 2011? :dunno:
dlockhart5x
New Member
It would be nice to see one of the RED logon folks chime in with some insight.
BrokenSafety
New Member
Not my region, but how about the local management team say something. Seems like they would know something, if not say you dont. If I have a problem with a local Sears, then I speak to local management, then call the head office, if I dont like what I hear - Pretty simple.
So, who runs your region? I know Chris and John have the North/east and Southeast and they are pretty vocal with issues on the board.
Is anyone manning the ship over here?
So, who runs your region? I know Chris and John have the North/east and Southeast and they are pretty vocal with issues on the board.
Is anyone manning the ship over here?
some guy #2
Member
The rumor I heard was the MW peeps did not secure the dates (money, verbal commitment, whatever) so we had none. Ducati Indy took most of the old NESBA dates I think. If the rumor about not paying bills is true I assume that happened this year probably due to the large amount of Road America days that were lightly attended.
BigCountry1125
Member
I second that motion! :agree: